Concern over the implementation of 'extreme' ideologies.

[Raventhefuhrer]

I felt that I wanted to make a thread in response to the recent Developer Diary that went into the political system and how the different parties act, push for or stand against, reforms, etc. (Specifically Dev Diary #13).

As a person who has only briefly played Vicki 1 at a friend's house (and indeed we know that Paradox games aren't the type you 'briefly play') I admit that I don't feel very comfortable being on this forum, though at the same time I am very interested in Victoria II and plan to buy it when it is available for retail.

However, even coming from such a weak position in the Vicki community I feel that I really want to comment in regards to how the more extreme ideologies are represented in the game, name Fascism and Communism. I understand that given modern sentiments it's easy to demonize both political ideologies because their prime adherents - Hitler and Stalin - were both emphatically evil. As a general statement I want to caution the developers not to inaccurately and unobjectively portray 18th and 19th century hypothetical Fascists and/or Communists rather than immediately tie them to oppressive and evil regimes - a temptation that is given into far too much in literature, media, gaming, etc.

To that end I hope that, as further Dev Diaries come out and more about the game's political systems are revealed you give appropriate attention to these two ideologies and make them completely viable (and respectable) alternatives to Liberalism, Conservatism, etc. Anyways that was just my word of caution.

As for a few suggestions:

I think that a Fascist government should be given bonuses and objectives for unifying with their cultural or ethnic 'kin' in order to form a larger conglomerate such as a 'Greater Germany' or a 'Yugoslavia'-type country, as many fascists often wanted to do. Enhance the Fatherland, and bring their brethren together under the same banner. In this game I think that it's only fair that this notion can be represented as a 'Pure' objective with mostly noble intentions, rather than the evil genocidal Hitlerian Nazi-Expansionism that we know today.

Likewise I think that Communist governments should well get bonuses for their liberal reforms, and staging Communist revolutions in neighboring countries, or even just supporting Communists around the world in a 'Proto-Comintern' type of agenda. And that the game engine and events should be able to reflect that a country is taking this path with 'Noble' and 'Altruistic' terms.

If I were to put these two idea's in EU3 terms I would say that they receive significantly less infamy for reaching these goals, as well as gain cores easier and have very limited but also very low cost casus belli's. Unfortunately with my limited Vicki 1 experiences this is the best way that I can elaborate on my thoughts, but hopefully what I'm conveying was understood.

Thank you,
And I look forward to Vicki 2's release.

 

[Rav3nous_waffle]

+1

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

I can agree with that, and i think the forming Greater Germany or whatever will work more or less as you say. I think fascism is evil, but I recognise that from a gameplay POV, it's just not practical to handicap ideologies because they are morally repugnant.

For commercial reasons, PI steers clear of the more controversial aspects of fascism, so there is no question of any in-game implementation of them.

 

[unmerged(67185)]

In Vicky I there were no Ideology that was evil they were all just game mechanics some had a different attitude to minorities and some were authoritarian etc but they weren't doing anything very evil just restricted voting right, well that's kind of evil.

 

[Flooper X]

From what I can tell, they will be equated with radical liberalism and reactionarism. In the end how "evil" a government is is up to the player, there's not going to be any automatic declarations of war or other nasty stuff a government can do to it's people...

 

[Raventhefuhrer]

can agree with that, and i think the forming Greater Germany or whatever will work more or less as you say. I think fascism is evil, but I recognise that from a gameplay POV, it's just not practical to handicap ideologies because they are morally repugnant.

For commercial reasons, PI steers clear of the more controversial aspects of fascism, so there is no question of any in-game implementation of them.

Quite right. To clarify however I do need to say that in no way am I advocating the insertion of Concentration Camps, or Goolags into the game - or anything else that is by no means appropriate for the time. I'm only stating that, given the reality of the atrocities I just mentioned, that you don't include any opinions on them or their perpatrators into a hypothetical 18th century representation of Fascists and/or Communists which necessarily must disassociate itself from 20th century Fascists/Communists and their actions.

 

[unmerged(134218)]

I think that a Fascist government should be given bonuses and objectives for unifying with their cultural or ethnic 'kin' in order to form a larger conglomerate such as a 'Greater Germany' or a 'Yugoslavia'-type country, as many fascists often wanted to do. Enhance the Fatherland, and bring their brethren together under the same banner. In this game I think that it's only fair that this notion can be represented as a 'Pure' objective with mostly noble intentions, rather than the evil genocidal Hitlerian Nazi-Expansionism that we know today.

One of the ways Fascist parties become popular is through revanchism; there are cores outside of that country. They aren't missions, per se, but Fascists do gain support in this fashion.

Likewise I think that Communist governments should well get bonuses for their liberal reforms, and staging Communist revolutions in neighboring countries, or even just supporting Communists around the world in a 'Proto-Comintern' type of agenda. And that the game engine and events should be able to reflect that a country is taking this path with 'Noble' and 'Altruistic' terms.

When you turn into a Communist Proletarian Dictatorship, all non-Communist governments hate you, while all other Communist governments love you. So, you do have a potential proto-Comintern alliance. Proletarian dictatorships also have a couple of Commie-specific random events (I think one of them is Great Leap Foward, altough it might only be in mods), and also can bypass pluarlity penatlies that occur in other forms of governments (including fascist dictatorships):

"Proletarian Utopia: A Proletarian Dictatorship can byass the plurality penalty if it fulfills two conditions. First, you must have a Communist Political party in power. Second, your POPs must be Communist. Once these conditions are met, your Communist POPs will ignore the plurality increase to militancy based on form of government. They will also remain Communist so long as you keep the Communists in power and keep your POPs' consciousness and militancy low. Just as a Regime of Reaction can ward off the tides of liberalism and socialism, so to can the Proletarian Utopia provide a solid alternative to laissez-faire capitalism. "

Of course, this is Victoria2, so a new system can (and likely will) in fact exist.

 

[unmerged(68110)]

The problem with communism in the game is self-evident due to the very stance that Johan has shown whenever referring to it on presentations (quote "a communist dictatorship", and so on).

Here is the thing:

the dictatorship of the proletariat has NOT the same meaning of the concept of "dictatorship" that is usually assumed.

Which is why I have frequently commented about on how bloody wrong it was implemented on vicky one.

The dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e. the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors, cannot result merely in an expansion of democracy. Simultaneously, with an immense expansion of democracy, which, for the first time, becomes democracy for the poor, democracy for the people, and not democracy for the money-bags, the dictatorship of the proletariat imposes a series of restrictions on the freedom of the oppressors, the exploiters, the capitalists. We must suppress them in order to free humanity from wage slavery, their resistance must be crushed by force; it is clear that there is no freedom and no democracy where there is suppression and where there is violence.

I do get that Paradox has to simplify things, even as much treating communism as merely "radical socialism" and not as the subsequent state that originates from socialism. Every socialist is, and make no mistake, a communist; if someone wishes the perpetuity of the state of transition or for whatever reason does not believe that socialism per se is the answer but agrees in the necessity of eliminating poverty through the state, he is a social-democrat. Considering how frequent people (even the theorists!) confuse how that works, I am not bothered by the simplification.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Regarding fascists, I would guess that they would tend to be jingositic parties, and so might actualy spread the popularity of the jingoism issue. And I belive that the jingoism of the people was an important factor for being able to add war goals i an war without massive militancy or some such. Well, a thought anyway.

 

[HMS Enterprize]

I don't think extreme parties in vic1 were characterised as evil as such-there was just not no real game based incentive to not stay liberal/socialist. It sounds like that this won't be the case in vicky2.

 

[Piddyx]

However, even coming from such a weak position in the Vicki community I feel that I really want to comment in regards to how the more extreme ideologies are represented in the game, name Fascism and Communism. I understand that given modern sentiments it's easy to demonize both political ideologies because their prime adherents - Hitler and Stalin - were both emphatically evil. As a general statement I want to caution the developers not to inaccurately and unobjectively portray 18th and 19th century hypothetical Fascists and/or Communists rather than immediately tie them to oppressive and evil regimes - a temptation that is given into far too much in literature, media, gaming, etc.

To that end I hope that, as further Dev Diaries come out and more about the game's political systems are revealed you give appropriate attention to these two ideologies and make them completely viable (and respectable) alternatives to Liberalism, Conservatism, etc. Anyways that was just my word of caution.

I would not worry about that at all! This is a Paradox Game, and they have created the best historical grand strategy games in the past 10 years.

Although, if I do have the developer's attention, you might want to steal an idea from Activision and make an online co-operative level that pits you against nazi zombies.

 

[King]

Honestly, I am sick of reading threads where people mention that they won't mention concentration camps and gulags. Just don't mention them then. I am not interested in any topic that could end up discussing that kind of shit.