I suspect that people who play a lot of 4 will pretty quickly learn to ID what civ's are up to via affinity values.
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Yeah, those are exactly my fears as well.I think the distinction will be hugely lacking in this system. Though the race is more than the form, you have to look up every tiny detail to know what kind of orc is invading your territory. And yes, if all traits and culture fit, it could be an elf in orcish disguise, but wait... if everything is interchangeable, who knows any longer what an elf is like? You have to define it clearly for yourself, the game will not offer much canon any longer.
You see an orc with shield and sword and all you can say for sure is: it is a defender. The days, where you see firstborn dwarfs, goblin beetles or human knights, knowing exactly what they are and what they stand for, seem to be gone in AoW4. You don't even know what transformations are in, when the head has a green glow, because it can have several transformations and only the last one will make the glow green.
I fear the iconic feeling of the units will be gone with AoW4, at least for the races. I don't care too much about tier 1 units, as they did not have much impact in the later game. Some tier 2 units of AoW3 have been used for a long time. You were watchful, if a stormsister had her golden medal. This feeling will be gone.
And we don't seem to get all those nice racial tier 3 units at all now. And who cares if a tyrant knight is riding a horse or a boar, if it has no impact at all and we have to look up what culture and bunch of traits (and transformations?) modify its race to the way it is? So I wouldn't say the units will be same-y. You simply don't know what they are, before you look each one up.
Actually we have to look up every "racial" unit every time we encounter it, because we can't be sure of anything. I know how to behave by seeing nearly every unit in AoW3 after hundreds or thousands of hours of play. This feeling will be impossible in AoW4. Maybe this will not bother me, because AoW4 is just a different game, but maybe it will be a huge let down in the end. I will only know, after playing it for quite some time. But it will definitely feel very different from the former AoWs.
I guess you skipped planetfall, that game really encourages you to check what you are going to fight because even tier 1 units can be quite dangerous with some mods like "now your tier 3 unit is mine for the battle" or "I am no longer infantry, now I am range 9 AoE artillery which can stun/berserk/poison etc, several units along with dealing damage". It was quite fun and interestingI think the distinction will be hugely lacking in this system. Though the race is more than the form, you have to look up every tiny detail to know what kind of orc is invading your territory. And yes, if all traits and culture fit, it could be an elf in orcish disguise, but wait... if everything is interchangeable, who knows any longer what an elf is like? You have to define it clearly for yourself, the game will not offer much canon any longer.
You see an orc with shield and sword and all you can say for sure is: it is a defender. The days, where you see firstborn dwarfs, goblin beetles or human knights, knowing exactly what they are and what they stand for, seem to be gone in AoW4. You don't even know what transformations are in, when the head has a green glow, because it can have several transformations and only the last one will make the glow green.
I fear the iconic feeling of the units will be gone with AoW4, at least for the races. I don't care too much about tier 1 units, as they did not have much impact in the later game. Some tier 2 units of AoW3 have been used for a long time. You were watchful, if a stormsister had her golden medal. This feeling will be gone.
And we don't seem to get all those nice racial tier 3 units at all now. And who cares if a tyrant knight is riding a horse or a boar, if it has no impact at all and we have to look up what culture and bunch of traits (and transformations?) modify its race to the way it is? So I wouldn't say the units will be same-y. You simply don't know what they are, before you look each one up.
Actually we have to look up every "racial" unit every time we encounter it, because we can't be sure of anything. I know how to behave by seeing nearly every unit in AoW3 after hundreds or thousands of hours of play. This feeling will be impossible in AoW4. Maybe this will not bother me, because AoW4 is just a different game, but maybe it will be a huge let down in the end. I will only know, after playing it for quite some time. But it will definitely feel very different from the former AoWs.
Alright, please tell me this: if you boot AoW 3 right now and start a game, will you not be able to tell Draconian Berserker vs let's say, High Elf Berserker at a glance? Or basically any racial class unit that AT MOST is only somewhat deviated in function (like High Elf Bard being actually decent archer unit)? With units like muskeeters being basically no different between races? I find it hard to believe that after "hundreds of thousands hours of play" you'll not be able to recognise Barbarian Spearman at a glance only because it happens to look like a rat instead of orc.Actually we have to look up every "racial" unit every time we encounter it, because we can't be sure of anything. I know how to behave by seeing nearly every unit in AoW3 after hundreds or thousands of hours of play. This feeling will be impossible in AoW4. Maybe this will not bother me, because AoW4 is just a different game, but maybe it will be a huge let down in the end. I will only know, after playing it for quite some time. But it will definitely feel very different from the former AoWs.
Yes I know, my concern is about the cultural units, not races. I said "racial units" only when talking about AOW3.This is what we know so far:
1. Race is just a form now and purely cosmetic. For example if everything else is the same elven archers will have the exact same stats as orc archers.
2. Spear, archer and shield units will still be distinct enough, the distinction just won't be coming from race anymore but from culture traits, society traits and tomes.
There is already a long ongoing discussion about this in this thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/are-races-pure-cosmetic.1565793/?prdxDevPosts=1
I'd suggest only reading the dev responses
I'm sure they'll all have different secondary abilities and passive traits, but it's still all the same core units - a sword and shield infantry, a two-handed spear, a bow, a support with a staff... Sure indentured and troopers are different enough, but imagine if in planetfall every faction but one had a rifle unit, a melee infantry, a flying scout, and a magic-looking support for their starting lineup. Even knowing nothing else about those units it's already less variety.If we look at Planetfall its obvious they had units filling various roles just like in this game. However even units with similar roles and even basic attacks were very different. Vanguard Troopers and Syndicate Indentured were the standard, 7 range repeating unit. However they had different damage channels which provided very different mod options. Different utility abilities (grenade vs power shot). Different racial synergies too. A fully modded and supported Trooper was dramatically different from a similarly supported Indentured even thought they were the same "base" unit.
You can go down the line for most units in Planetfall. How similar were Scavengers and Frenzied? How about Enforcers, Lightbringers and Lancers? Or the 3 snipers? Laser Tanks vs Dvar Tanks?
Perhaps assuming the devs will continue with and improve upon their well done design decisions in previous games is prudent.
Sorry, but what exactly are you trying to tell me?I really really am not fan of digging out this whole conversation about forms that doesn't even belong to this topic, but I feel I have to say something about that comment:
Alright, please tell me this: if you boot AoW 3 right now and start a game, will you not be able to tell Draconian Berserker vs let's say, High Elf Berserker at a glance? Or basically any racial class unit that AT MOST is only somewhat deviated in function (like High Elf Bard being actually decent archer unit)? With units like muskeeters being basically no different between races? I find it hard to believe that after "hundreds of thousands hours of play" you'll not be able to recognise Barbarian Spearman at a glance only because it happens to look like a rat instead of orc.
At the end of the day unit rosters are based on culture and tomes, but the units stay the same, and if it ends up with them being impossible to recognise at a glance then I'm pretty sure the bigger problem is with unit design rather than "forms suck".
I did skip planetfall after about 50 hours where I tried to like this game and failed, because I disliked the combat some and the "storys" totally.I guess you skipped planetfall, that game really encourages you to check what you are going to fight because even tier 1 units can be quite dangerous with some mods like "now your tier 3 unit is mine for the battle" or "I am no longer infantry, now I am range 9 AoE artillery which can stun/berserk/poison etc, several units along with dealing damage". It was quite fun and interesting
Here's the problem: everything we've seen so far indicates that every faction is going to have the same general line up: Spearman, Archer, Swordsman, Cavalry. Even with severe modifications they're still going to be filling those roles of light infantry/ranged unit/melee/cavalry unit.If we look at Planetfall its obvious they had units filling various roles just like in this game. However even units with similar roles and even basic attacks were very different. Vanguard Troopers and Syndicate Indentured were the standard, 7 range repeating unit. However they had different damage channels which provided very different mod options. Different utility abilities (grenade vs power shot). Different racial synergies too. A fully modded and supported Trooper was dramatically different from a similarly supported Indentured even thought they were the same "base" unit.
You can go down the line for most units in Planetfall. How similar were Scavengers and Frenzied? How about Enforcers, Lightbringers and Lancers? Or the 3 snipers? Laser Tanks vs Dvar Tanks?
Perhaps assuming the devs will continue with and improve upon their well done design decisions in previous games is prudent.
I mean, the Tyrant Knight they showed off wasn't any sort of summoned unit, so I have no idea where you're getting this from.It wouldn't make much sense as a tome unit (AFAIK) since those seem to be ostensibly summons and equipment/enchantment to improve your units, along with elemental/magic-based things.
Huh, you're right. I guess I failed this reading comprehension test. Sorry for focusing just on that one part.Yes I know, my concern is about the cultural units, not races. I said "racial units" only when talking about AOW3.
I also think its worth noting that I am not sure where this six starting cultures narrative is coming from - there are not really 6 starting cultures, there are 6 starting affinities with I believe 3-each cultural modifiers and we have already been shown an example of how they are pretty dramatically different (holiness/piety vs imperial for high culture). I feel like we have seen enough variety for right out of the gate early game that we don't really need to be too concerned about saminess personallyMy thoughts on original post.
Cultural units seems samey since they are what they are - basic units. That's the point of basic units - to be basic an d universal. Not to even mention that there is a difference - barbarian got javelins that sunder armour while high culture got a horse archer for example.
But that's the case only at the begining of the game before you apply enchantments and transformations to those units - they will then differ quite a lot - one support unit will be able to cast heal the other buff, some units will use fire other poison and so on.
Not to mention roster doesn't contain only basic units but I guess that's not the point but still is important to note - you build your roaster of units through out the game so your basic units have to working well in many playthoughts with different roasters and still have a place there.
TLDR I don't agree there is a reason for concern about basic units
Counter point, Planetfall.That's the point of basic units - to be basic an d universal.
As far as I know in Planetfall you had research units that were spread out in your tech tree - here we have very similar thing.Counter point, Planetfall.
Your basic units in Planetfall were the exact opposite ofAs far as I know in Planetfall you had research units that were spread out in your tech tree
Even the similar ones, like Indentured and Troopers, were default quite different and then their interactions with the rest of the system made them incredibly different.That's the point of basic units - to be basic an d universal.
Hello!
First of all, this game looks flipping amazing. I have watched the intro video and read all the dev diaries a thousand times. I loved AOW3 and Planetfall and you can take my money!
One concern I had though was glancing through the previews of the different cultural units (we see some in the video and the rest in a gif on the announcement page) most of them look pretty much the same. For example, the industrial culture gets a crossbow, but all the other cultures have a regular archer with a bow. All of them have a sword-and-shield person and most have a two-handed spear.
Towards the end of 3s development, triumph did an amazing job tweaking racial units where they could to make them more distinct. Planetfall introduced a huge improvement in 3 by making every faction have totally different unit lineups. There was very limited 1-to-1 equivalency between faction rosters. I loved that.
Are the spear, archer, and shield units going to be distinct enough?
THank you for your amazing work and the hundreds of hours of fun it's given me!
What I meant was that advanced units were in your tech tree similar to the ones in tomes.Your basic units in Planetfall were the exact opposite of
What makes you think it's not the case other than they look similar? They have variations. If those are not good enough for you that's a little different case than they all have sword and shield ergo they are the same.Even the similar ones, like Indentured and Troopers, were default quite different and then their interactions with the rest of the system made them incredibly different.
Well that's something of the preference. It's not like I don't think more is better - sure give me all the units you can think of.Basic units being "basic and universal" is for games with symmetrical balance. And at least for me, the thing that's always excited me when playing Age of Wonders IS the assymmetry. If I wanted Symmetry in my 4X I'd be playing Deadlock, because it has much more interesting empire building.
So yeah, here's hoping for more Planetfall levels of Asymmetry than AoW3's.