[Concept] - Diplomacy 3.0 / Diplomat Warfare

  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Alblaka

Obligatory Golden
99 Badges
Apr 12, 2013
3.908
1.215
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
Diplomacy, in it's current implementation, is dull and very linear, with no character or intricative details to it. You click through the usual chain of NAP-DP-Fed agreements, probably repeat the same mutual Research Pact trade deal every 30 years, or just rival everything. Diplomacy is instant, unlimited and with no actual purpose or discernible agenda.

To remedy that, I suggest the following:


Diplomatic Warfare
We create a new Leader type 'Diplomat'. For each foreign empire, exactly one Diplomat must be assigned to perform any kind of diplomacy. However, a single Diplomat can be assigned to as many foreign empires as you wish. Additionally, if you do not assign a Diplomat, per default your ruler acts as a Diplomat for to those foreign empires. (Bonus gimmick: in the diplomacy screen, the alien you are talking to is the assigned Diplomat, not necessarily the ruler or the original species.) Note that a ruler working as Diplomat saves you 'a leader slot', but since rulers do not gain Diplomat-specific traits, he will likely be less useful at that position (albeit an experienced high level ruler might outperform a freshly hired level 1 Diplomat).

Instead of beign able to instantly sign treaties and trade agreements, every form of diplomacy but basic hostile ones (aka, declaring rivalry, closing borders, declaring war, and offering peace deals) is locked behind a new mechanic named 'Negotiation'.

Any empire can open a negotiation towards any other known empire (and can only have one such negotiation per other empire), which can include any kind of uni- or bidirectional demand. Demanding a onesided Research Agreement is just as possible as asking for a bothsided NAP.

To complete a negotiation (and cause the demands to take effect), a certain amount of 'progress' points has to be achieved. The number of points needed depends on the size of the demand being negotiated (i.e. a few for 'Open Border's, a lot for vassalizing a multi-planet star empire).

The diplomat assigned to the foreign empire will start generating a base income of progress per month, based upon his level, leader traits, species traits and other modifiers (i.e. tech, diplomatic traditions, etc). Important to note: A diplomat working on multiple negotiations for multiple foreign empires will split his base progress generation across those negotiations (prior to applying modifiers), meaning that any empire intending to do a lot of parallel diplomacy will need to have multiple Diplomats.

An empire can support it's Diplomat's efforts by investing additional political ressources, represented by influence. A toggle in the negotiation can add +1 base progress (which is the same amount a non-modified level 1 diplomat produces) to the monthly progress, at the expense of -1 Influence per months. (This option is not avaible to the 'other' side of the negotiation.)

A foreign empire can react to each currently running negotiation, either taking a 'Welcoming' or a 'Protesting' stance. When Welcoming, a large (+200%) bonus is applied to the progress made on the negotiation, and the assigned foreign diplomat will add his own base progress in favor of the negotiation (so basically both sides' diplomats will work together with a significant boost). When Protesting, the foreign Diplomat will instead subtract his own progress income from the negotiation, either stalling or at the very least slowing it.

Alternatively, the empire may remain 'Undecided' and have a neutral stance (which may also be relevant to avoid splitting up the foreign diplomats attention further, in case he's working on a more important negotiation on a entirely different diplomatic channel). Furthermore, the foreign empire can make a counter-demand, which is another set of negotiable conditions, which it wants to see added to the negotiation. The empire that originally initiated the negotiation can then decide to accept these additional conditions, merging them into the currently ongoing negotiation, which automatically locks the foreign empire into a 'Welcoming' stance. (Trivial case: You demand X minerals, and the other empire counter-demands Y energy, you agree, the negotiation switches to welcome and is done with in a month or two.)


To make this system more than just a 'more complex' and 'less instant' version of current diplomacy, unfavorable negotiations (aka, those the foreign empire is Protesting against) contain a more complex mechanic simulating 'diplomatic combat':

Whilst a negotiation is running against a Protesting Stance, each month generates 'tension', up to a level of '100%'. This applies, regardless of whether the negotiation is stuck at 0% or progressing rapidly. Diplomat leader traits (think 'Skilled Appeaser') can reduce the build-up of tension.

Active tension has a direct impact on relations, and will decay slowly if there is no active negotiation (i.e. because the negotiation was cancelled by the initiator, or finished).

Additionally, certain levels of tension can have additional adverse effects. Once tension surpasses 25%, the other empire can 'intervene', which is a instant action triggered by button, which consumes a lump sum of Influence, but significantly reduces the progress of the negotiation, whilst increasing the tension in return. This represents the empire's official 'stop trying to force this bullshit onto us' proclamation and similar actions.

Once tension passes 50%, there's a (small) monthly chance for negative events to fire, which basically indicate the conflict of interests between the two sides. Squabbles in the embassy, political intrigue, public unrest and other topics come to mind. Generally, the events should be negative in nature, moreso for the instigator of the negotiation, and frequently contain choises that either penalize the empire or increase tension further (or offer expensive options to reduce tension).
The events become mor frequent, the higher tension rises.

Until the tension htis 100%, at which point the negotiation 'escalates' and fails. At that point, it 'becomes clear' that there is no way to reach an agreement 'diplomatically' and the instigator of the negotiation can either chose to back down (which may have adverse effects similar to humiliation) or go to war over the issue (potentially tearing alliances and NAP's apart, assuming they haven't already broken apart due to the negative relations incurred by having a long-running 'protested' negotiation). Using the new casus belli system from Cherry, I feel like a 'Enforce demands by military might' situation would be great for both small and large-scale conflicts (i.e. trying to negotiate your small isolationist neighbour to finally stop being an ass and open his borders for your fleet to fight the Devouring Swarm on the other side, before finally just declaring war on the neighbour to force him to comply).


Additional lines of thought regarding this concept:
  • Xenophobe ethics could give a -25/50% penality to all positive negotiation progress in either direction, meaning that Isolationists both suck at making diplomatic arrangements, but as well are far harder to diplomatically influence.
  • Further penality for Inward Perfectionist Civic?
  • Xenophile ethics could get a significant boost to diplomatic progress grain or gain a tension reduction.
  • Since tension can be approximately calculated before a negotiation starts, a player designing a demand could have an interface telling them whether the negotiation will succeed (assuming no outwards influences or changes) before tension reaches 100%, or is a futile attempt in first place.
  • Having a significantly more powerful empire, either in economy or/and in military, could provide a bonus to diplomatic progress, representing 'gunboat diplomacy'.
  • Diplomatic Traditions could be changed to grant boni to actual diplomacy instead of federations.
  • Having pops of the foreign empire's primary species in your own empire could benefit diplomacy. Same for both diplomats being of the same species.
  • Closed Borders could apply a general minor (-25%?) penality to diplomatic arrangements between the respective empires.
  • Forcing an empire to give up on a rival (including a one-sided rivalry towards the diplomatically initiating empire) could be a negotiateable demand. ("Stop hating on us, we don't want your planets and we would really rather focus on those Exterminators over there.")
  • 'Establish Embassy' could be reintroduced as a demand that boosts diplomatic progress for the empire that established the embassy.
  • Add a 'Diplomat Enclave' from which you can purchase 'Diplomatic Advice' (general bonus), hire highly skilled Diplomat Leaders or obtain new contacts. Maybe even pay them to 'smooth over' bad relations with a select group of other empires.
  • Maybe create a negotiateable demand which applies a 10-year ethical influence to the target empire, to allow diplomatizing empires to swoon other empires to their ethics over time?

Overall, I think this concept would make diplomacy less 'default 4X', give Stellaris more of it's unique storyteling character and furthermore add a significantly large layer of 'peace time interaction' towards other empires.
 

Jin_Cardassian

Major
47 Badges
Jul 25, 2005
780
8
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
Bumping this in light of the Federations DLC and the Galactic UN.

We haven't heard anything yet about baseline empire-to-empire diplomacy, but envoys and favors have been mentioned as part of the UN mechanics. Hopefully these aren't limited to that.
 

Methone

Field Marshal
13 Badges
Oct 27, 2018
6.651
2.076
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
Bumping this in light of the Federations DLC and the Galactic UN.

We haven't heard anything yet about baseline empire-to-empire diplomacy, but envoys and favors have been mentioned as part of the UN mechanics. Hopefully these aren't limited to that.
We've heard whispers about Subject Contracts and Diplomatic Stances, and seen at least 1 new AI Attitude (Suspicious).
 

Jin_Cardassian

Major
47 Badges
Jul 25, 2005
780
8
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
We've heard whispers about Subject Contracts and Diplomatic Stances, and seen at least 1 new AI Attitude (Suspicious).

Oh yeah, true. I believe there was some mention of being able to force an empire out of a Diplomatic Stance and into another one.

Do you remember where Subject Contracts were mentioned?
 

Methone

Field Marshal
13 Badges
Oct 27, 2018
6.651
2.076
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
Do you remember where Subject Contracts were mentioned?
In dev responses here and there. Mostly in regards to explaining the difference between Scion subjects of FE and the typical Awakened Empire Subjects.
 

Tamwin5

General
19 Badges
Dec 3, 2017
2.064
1.928
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
In dev responses here and there. Mostly in regards to explaining the difference between Scion subjects of FE and the typical Awakened Empire Subjects.

Thats something already in game. Different subject types have different effects; tributaries can expand and don't join in offensive wars, the FE vassals all have unique mechanics. I think what they meant was that Scion subjects are a unique vassal type, almost certainly a new one.
 

Methone

Field Marshal
13 Badges
Oct 27, 2018
6.651
2.076
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
Thats something already in game. Different subject types have different effects; tributaries can expand and don't join in offensive wars, the FE vassals all have unique mechanics. I think what they meant was that Scion subjects are a unique vassal type, almost certainly a new one.
No, they specifically used the words "Subject contract", where prior they had indicated they wanted more customizable subject give-and-take via 'contracts'.
 

Tamwin5

General
19 Badges
Dec 3, 2017
2.064
1.928
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
No, they specifically used the words "Subject contract", where prior they had indicated they wanted more customizable subject give-and-take via 'contracts'.

Oh, interesting. Do you have the link to the dev diary/thread they said that? (using the words subject contract)
 

Methone

Field Marshal
13 Badges
Oct 27, 2018
6.651
2.076
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
Oh, interesting. Do you have the link to the dev diary/thread they said that? (using the words subject contract)
Here. Third to last.
As the catastrophe progresses, extracting resources from your homeworld will become easier. Every giant gaping chasm has a silver lining.


Many origins have events and event chains associated with them.


We joked about "Accept Your Fate", where you just waited 64 years but while amusing didn't sound like a lot of fun.


Not directly, but your empire's makeup will influence them.


They have a slightly modified start, but are otherwise still symbiotically linked to the tree of life in the same way. One of the lithoid portraits (rocks on a tree) is perfect for this origin.


Yes. They can also be set to not randomly generate if that origin is already present in the galaxy.


That's exactly where they are. They take up the guaranteed habitable planets that you would have otherwise had (assuming you didn't turn them off). It's an important trade-off for starting in such a strong situation.


I'm Commander Drahpehs and this is my favorite origin in the game.

(Actually, On the Shoulders of Giants is my particular favorite. But having a connection to the greater galaxy waiting for you once you advance far enough in technology is an important sci-fi trope to have represented. Some elements from Contact could arguably also fit into this one.)


What a subject empire can do varies by vassalization type. Satrapies of the Great Khan, for instance, can expand freely. Scions similarly have a unique subject contract.


The Archaeology system itself isn't restricted to Ancient Relics.


While your homeworld is a relic world and a former Ecumenopolis covered in ruined arcologies, it does not have the same special features as, say, the Rubricator world.
 

Jin_Cardassian

Major
47 Badges
Jul 25, 2005
780
8
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
Hmm. That's a hopeful indicator, but it doesn't confirm that normal empires will be able to offer different subject contracts. Nothing like what the Vassals Reworked and Expanded mod offers.

You would think that if they're including this function in an update expanding Federations, normal Vassals will get a similar pass. Hopefully an upcoming dev diary will clarify this.
 

Tamwin5

General
19 Badges
Dec 3, 2017
2.064
1.928
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Here. Third to last.

...Yeah, that just sounds like it's a unique subject type, not that they are adding the ability for you to custom tailor a subject contact. They are using the term "subject contract" to mean what subject type.
 

Jin_Cardassian

Major
47 Badges
Jul 25, 2005
780
8
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
Stellaris Dev Diary #162 - New Diplomatic Features

Well, it looks like we got . . . . 10% of what we were asking for?

With the exception of (non-leader) envoys, the only new features are the improve/harm relations ability cribbed from EU4 and the option to spend favors for a meager bonus to deal acceptance.

The latter looks like it won't matter at all in multiplayer. Unlike the Galactic Community, where you can spend favors to strongarm empires into supporting your votes, deal acceptance seems like it is still entirely optional.

As to the former . . . seriously? It took three years to add something that already existed in another PDX game?
 

Methone

Field Marshal
13 Badges
Oct 27, 2018
6.651
2.076
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
Stellaris Dev Diary #162 - New Diplomatic Features

Well, it looks like we got . . . . 10% of what we were asking for?

With the exception of (non-leader) envoys, the only new features are the improve/harm relations ability cribbed from EU4 and the option to spend favors for a meager bonus to deal acceptance.

The latter looks like it won't matter at all in multiplayer. Unlike the Galactic Community, where you can spend favors to strongarm empires into supporting your votes, deal acceptance seems like it is still entirely optional.

As to the former . . . seriously? It took three years to add something that already existed in another PDX game?
This was exactly what I was afraid of. When 2.2 was coming, the first things they showed us was the basic rework to planetary economies. But what did we get this time? A bunch of flashy stuff about Federations and the GC, and I was worried that it was because there WAS no basic rework to diplomacy.

And I was right.
 

Alblaka

Obligatory Golden
99 Badges
Apr 12, 2013
3.908
1.215
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
where you can spend favors to strongarm empires into supporting your votes

Which may or may not work in a relevant fashion. Keep in mind you need 10 favors, the 'maximum amount' of favors, with another empire, to effectively gain their 'diplomatic weight' vote count atop of yours. This is strictly worse than actually forcing them to vote in your favor (since it inflates the number of 'votes' in the system, thus making each individual vote less relevant),

and still relies on the other empires actually having a relevant enough diplomatic weight to be worth the trouble. If the AI is as smart about generating diplomatic weight, as it is about managing economy or fleets, you'll probably per default end up with 50% of galaxy-wide diplomatic weight just by not mismanaging your economy.

Whether it's then relevant to actually hunt for favors will probably depend on the cost of those favors, too...

But I really don't see the system going anywhere.


(And big missed opportunity on making diplomacy actually relevant or interesting, instead of just giving the overview a facelift.)

This was exactly what I was afraid of. When 2.2 was coming, the first things they showed us was the basic rework to planetary economies. But what did we get this time? A bunch of flashy stuff about Federations and the GC, and I was worried that it was because there WAS no basic rework to diplomacy.

Je, same disappointment felt here.
 

Jin_Cardassian

Major
47 Badges
Jul 25, 2005
780
8
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
This was exactly what I was afraid of. When 2.2 was coming, the first things they showed us was the basic rework to planetary economies. But what did we get this time? A bunch of flashy stuff about Federations and the GC, and I was worried that it was because there WAS no basic rework to diplomacy.

And I was right.

It's such a dumb, ass-backwards approach.

Sanctions, backroom dealing, and gunboat diplomacy are all things that can states do at the direct one-on-one level. Why the hell would you awkwardly limit these to the Space UN? You establish these tools at the individual empire level first, then you find ways to scale them to Federations and the Galactic Community.
 

Jin_Cardassian

Major
47 Badges
Jul 25, 2005
780
8
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
Which may or may not work in a relevant fashion. Keep in mind you need 10 favors, the 'maximum amount' of favors, with another empire, to effectively gain their 'diplomatic weight' vote count atop of yours. This is strictly worse than actually forcing them to vote in your favor (since it inflates the number of 'votes' in the system, thus making each individual vote less relevant),

Which makes No. Fucking. Sense.

Oh yes, because empire A owes a favor to empire B, they can just magically summon extra votes out of the aether. Why aren't they just doing this for themselves all the times that they don't owe favors?

B will still vote Nay with their 120 Diplomatic Weight. The favors and influence expended represent some behind the scenes wheeling and dealing. (This also avoids a situation where you as a player are forced to vote against your will, or where the first person to call in favors has an advantage or disadvantage.)

I guess by this logic, war that conquers a planet shouldn't actually cost the defender that planet. It should just create a duplicate planet somewhere in the attacker's territory! We wouldn't want a situation where players lose planets against their will!

God forbid diplomacy have actual consequences and hard choices. God forbid it actually have some teeth, to give it parity with war and make it a useful tool for overcoming opponents. God forbid it actually have some drama to it.

No, good diplomacy is about easily bypassed, superficial gimmicks that have zero connection to the other foundational game systems.
 
Last edited:

Zavaleta

Major
62 Badges
Apr 4, 2014
656
1.192
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
I know it is disappointing that the fundamental design of this proposal was not used for the new diplomacy system. I hope some designer has read this and will attempt to implement the mechanics in a future game. However, I view the new Stellaris system optimistically as more like 30% of what we wanted.

While "diplomatic weight" is exclusive to the galactic UN and Federations, the gating of certain diplomatic actions behind levels of diplomatic relations does allow a limited sort of diplomatic "warfare". In theory, you can keep other more powerful empires from declaring war on you by maintaining positive relations via envoys. My main disappointment here is that Envoys do not have traits, making them stronger or weaker. Hopefully someone will make a Mod to rectify this mistake. Once the patch is released, maybe we will get lucky and someone will find a way to link diplomatic weight to bilateral empire interactions, and even simulate the proposal.

I will optimistically take a rehashed EU4 system over what we currently have.
 

Jin_Cardassian

Major
47 Badges
Jul 25, 2005
780
8
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
While "diplomatic weight" is exclusive to the galactic UN and Federations, the gating of certain diplomatic actions behind levels of diplomatic relations does allow a limited sort of diplomatic "warfare". In theory, you can keep other more powerful empires from declaring war on you by maintaining positive relations via envoys.

The dev diary said you would need Terrible Relations for rivalries, but it specifically did not say that you need Tense or Terrible relations in order to declare war.