Comprehensive Retinue Comparisons for Horse Lords 2.4.x

[Peter Kirby]

We gotta sort out a scale for adding cultural building and tech bonuses, by the way. They range up to 60% each, but I have no idea what the average should be.

I'm working on making two comparisons:

• 40% commander bonus (offensively and defensively)
• 15% tech across the board
• No bonuses from cultural buildings

And

• 40% commander bonus (offensively and defensively)
• 60% tech for one, 30% tech for the other two
• Max bonuses from cultural buildings

The first of these two should be fairly representative of the very early game or playing as a republic (with city capital), while the second of them should be fairly representative of the mid-to-late game. I can't really be bothered to make more than two comparisons (with values in-between or with other bonuses for the commander ... certainly not for terrain etc.) because it isn't going to change the relative rankings much, and the work is fairly tedious.

 

[Korashy]

So long as the early "Charge on Undefended Flank" feature is in the game and you have a flank of pure heavy infantry, this is (usually / probably) going to be a net negative. Being much more likely to close into melee sooner is more valuable than getting "stuck" in a 12-day defensive bonus during Skirmish. Any kind of skirmish tactic triggered by the commander isn't really that desirable, because you have good odds of an early "Charge on Undefended Flank" only when you have just the "Generic Skirmish" available as an alternative.

The only thing that will perpetually stay in skirmish is HA though, everything else you will wreck in Melee. Sure if you can trigger charge undefended right off the bat it's better, but there is no guarantee that will happen and overall I rather get through the skirmish mostly intact and then kill in melee. Don't think there really is one size fits all commanders for it. You generally have an idea what you are going to fight and switch leaders accordingly.

edit: it's also not really a Skirmish phase patch (besides again HA), Camels do well in both phases, but will enter melee normally, so does HC, and pike.

 

[Carsomyr Khan]

So long as the early "Charge on Undefended Flank" feature is in the game and you have a flank of pure heavy infantry, this is (usually / probably) going to be a net negative. Being much more likely to close into melee sooner is more valuable than getting "stuck" in a 12-day defensive bonus during Skirmish. Any kind of skirmish tactic triggered by the commander isn't really that desirable, because you have good odds of an early "Charge on Undefended Flank" only when you have just the "Generic Skirmish" available as an alternative.

I agree. Those commanders might be desirable on defense retinues though, since they don't have shieldwall(16% archers, less than the required 20%) and will likely roll Volley otherwise.

Also, how do you deal with being stuck on gavelkind on unreformed germanics? Murder isn't as easy as it used to be, and if your heir changes religion you can't demand he/she changes back.

 

[Korashy]

I agree. Those commanders might be desirable on defense retinues though, since they don't have shieldwall(16% archers, less than the required 20%) and will likely roll Volley otherwise.

Also, how do you deal with being stuck on gavelkind on unreformed germanics? Murder isn't as easy as it used to be, and if your heir changes religion you can't demand he/she changes back.

he said he goes republic

 

[Carsomyr Khan]

he said he goes republic

Ah, my mistake. Patrician Elective for the win.

 

[Peter Kirby]

The only thing that will perpetually stay in skirmish is HA though

If I was unclear, I did not mean that any unit will "perpetually stay in skirmish."

The flank with "Inspired Defense" has its own worst-case-scenario: it can cause the second tactic to be fired to be "Inspired Defense," providing 24 days of this skirmish tactic.

The odds of getting the second tactic to be "Charge on Undefended Flank" are only 25%. But for the second or third tactic, it is 46.75%. And for the second or third or fourth tactic, it is 57.81%.

So there are 57.81% odds of getting to "Charge on Undefended Flank" before day 13 rolls around. When day 13 does roll around, the Inspired Defense option means one of two things:

13.5 weight for another "Inspired Defense" (if you are using a Defensive Leader with martial 14+)

or

4.5 weight for another "Inspired Defense" (if you are using an Inspiring Leader with martial 14+) and, once in melee, a chance of "Religious Fervor" (which is itself an inferior tactic)

That said, one would have to do the full calculation to see which is better. It is not obvious at first sight.

(In actual practice, it will all be very dependent on the commanders actually available to you. So you are right that "one size fits all" doesn't apply in practice.)

 

[Secret Master]

If you can "charge on undefended flank" now whether or not the flank is actually undefended, then should the tactic get a name change? It's misleading now.

In the old days, it was supposed to be an archer-spam counter (whether it was effective was a different story). But now that it works in other situations, the name seems wrong.

 

[Peter Kirby]

If you can "charge on undefended flank" now whether or not the flank is actually undefended, then should the tactic get a name change? It's misleading now.

In the old days, it was supposed to be an archer-spam counter (whether it was effective was a different story). But now that it works in other situations, the name seems wrong.

Yep. I believe that they could safely take it out of the game, unless they are willing to rework it so that it actually requires the enemy to have >60% archers for it to be eligible.

(Although I think it's been working the same way ever since they put it in. Maybe we just didn't notice.)

 

[Gorgonkain]

"Charge An Unprepared Flank" perhaps? Imo, it makes sense if you have a largely melee oriented flank, they would prefer and be willing to press advantage with an early charge. Though I suppose Charge of Opportunity fills that role as well, without being so weighted against skirmish units.

 

[fulminea]

So,Unreformed Germanic Scottish Merchant Republic with castle capital is the second strongest being in this game?

 

[Secret Master]

Yep. I believe that they could safely take it out of the game, unless they are willing to rework it so that it actually requires the enemy to have >60% archers for it to be eligible.

(Although I think it's been working the same way ever since they put it in. Maybe we just didn't notice.)

No, I really think it's different now. I noticed a huge difference when I started playing Horse Lords, but I wasn't sure I understood the changes in the game. (I thought maybe it was a bug or something to do with traits) When it started happening multiple times during a campaign, when before it never fired against the AI, I noticed it readily enough. (And I always pay attention to that tactic from the old days, because it might tell me when a retinue flank has too much non-archer damage, causing it to tip past 60% without me knowing it).

 

[Gorgonkain]

I am going to start playing around with the Generic Defense + Steel Bow Infantry a bit here, and will post some of the practical results I find.
Any quick suggestions on what % of Elephants to try? Looking at the tables, 2% seems like it would be fairly optimal, but I am a bit worried I will get into Archer "Barrage" chance range.

 

[Peter Kirby]

I am going to start playing around with the Generic Defense + Steel Bow Infantry a bit here, and will post some of the practical results I find.
Any quick suggestions on what % of Elephants to try? Looking at the tables, 2% seems like it would be fairly optimal, but I am a bit worried I will get into Archer "Barrage" chance range.

Go with 12 Defence to 1 Steel Bow Infantry (for 0.5% elephants). I already did most of the numbers, and it was the only thing remotely close to the pure Defence unit. You wind up with slightly better skirmish numbers and slightly worse melee numbers.

Any bigger mix of the Steel Bow Infantry just suffers from the poor value of the unit (overpriced archers and overpriced elephants--and the elephants are hard to get enough of, stuck as they are with the archers).

It also avoids "Elephant Trample," which is probably a good thing (since "Force Back" is better for pikes). As you point out, you will also avoid "Barrage" if you keep the Archers as a percent of total army below 20%. Unfortunately you are already on the cusp at 800/3820 = 20.94% but, in practice, if enough of the archers die before the melee phase, this won't really be an issue.

 

[majorlupa]

@Peter Kirby lets not forget that elephants can roll all the HC tactics due to bug.

So,Unreformed Germanic Scottish Merchant Republic with castle capital is the second strongest being in this game?

Omg, I am going to try it right now! It way easier to make it happen comparing to Zunist Russian Druzhina

 

[Peter Kirby]

@Peter Kirby lets not forget that elephants can roll all the HC tactics due to bug.

Oh. Ya. I forgot the full implications of that. "Avoid elephants" seems to be the rule then...

(Technically, less than 1% elephants ... and zero heavy cavalry ... should avoid the HC tactics. So 12 Defence : 1 Steel Bow should avoid them.)

 

[fridabina]

I would imagine a couched lance charge with elephants would be quite devestating in reality, perhaps they should add an elephant bonus to it?

 

[makapse]

@Peter Kirby lets not forget that elephants can roll all the HC tactics due to bug.



Omg, I am going to try it right now! It way easier to make it happen comparing to Zunist Russian Druzhina

How will you even become a merchant republic as a norse start? Grant your primary heir a merchant republic?

 

[majorlupa]

How will you even become a merchant republic as a norse start? Grant your primary heir a merchant republic?

Need RoI dlc to save some time
Start as norse chief in Jutland -> Rise Tribal Authority -> Decline wars invitations from Ragnarr's sons -> Get event to prepare invasion for scotland -> win -> Hold one county in scotland, try to hold scotland -> Get market lvl 4, max tribal authority, 1000+ piety and prestige -> move capital to scotland -> turn scottish catholic - > move capital back to jutland -> create merchant republic -> turn norse.

 

[Gorgonkain]

Start as a tribe, reform religion and government, take an unreformed concubine or send your chaplain to fish for heresies. Fairly straight forward, the only issue I see is with staying at war/raiding so often.

 

[Eslin]

The easiest ways are to:
Raid until you get a christian or muslim woman, swap religion, reform, swap back to germanic. This requires 800 piety.
Do it on an old or depressed character whose heir is germanic, swap to a reformed religion, die.
For a republic wanting to switch religions/cultures, educate your heir the correct way or find a title equal to your own highest level title with a seaboard capital, capture it, switch your capital there and convert to local.