probably so you get much more men, while not sacrificing a lot of power. Personally I just go full defense instead, it's less of a hassle
Comprehensive Retinue Comparisons for Horse Lords 2.4.x
- Thread starter Peter Kirby
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Actually, if the center punches through its damage to the other flanks is higher than if one of the side flanks succeeds (I think that *both* side flanks punching through also grants higher bonuses). So I always put my high-damage troops (LC, HC, etc) in the center, and plain levies on either side.
But Light infantry isn't exactly a strong unit and none of the tactics used by this mix would give a bonus to them.
As long I don't miss a critical point, I would actually say G-D is much weaker than D alone
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hence why I said you wouldn't 'sacrifice' a lot of power.
More men in the retinue means that factions are less likely to fire and that people are less likely to attack you, which means: the AI only looks at how many numbers you have when starting wars.
But yes, your actual retinue will probably be weaker than with pure defense
weirdly enough, recently i played as britania and my 8000 longbow retinues really FTW. literally almost every 6-8K units that i fought always destroyed at skirmish phase.
maybe the cultural building bonus really give an edge in retinues now
maybe the cultural building bonus really give an edge in retinues now
Mass Volley [Welsh/English commander] still does good damage. The problem is if you have more than 60% Archers, Cavalry will utterly destroy you. Problem is running melee troops reduces the chance of Mass Volley firing in the first place.
They are not bad vs AI and you could do better with other retinues. After all you have 8000 monotype units good at skirmish vs 6000-8000 armies with maybe 2000 skirmish units. @newageofpower mass longbow volley has 100% damage vs charge tactics so it might be even better if enemy rolls charge on undefended flank.
Is there any chance this thread could get stickied since its annoying to lose it when I need a cheat sheet for a game.
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They'd be more likely to hide it in the FAQ section that no one uses, I'd bet.
Some relevant list entries from OP (the numbers are the survivors against an AI enemy of unchanging size):
90.35% -- Dutch - 3 Defense : 1 Goedendag -- (84.66% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
87.51% -- Goedendag Militia -- (24.82% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
79.60% -- 3 Defense : 1 Light Skirmish -- (62.65% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
79.47% -- Generic Defense -- (75.31% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
Hi Twogs,
In short, it does affect tactics.
There are a few things going on here, although it may not be intuitive. (Ultimately, it's just a calculation. The spreadsheet is not based on this kind of explanation. This kind of explanation is written as an aid to understanding.)
Because the Defense retinues contain both pikemen and archers, they do not have the virtuous tactical benefits of a truly pure pikeman retinue (which use only "General Skirmish" at first and will thus transition from skirmish sooner). Their initial skirmish possibilities are:
General Skirmish (3 days)
Volley (18 days)
Shieldwall (12 days)
The 3 Defense : 1 Goedendag (and the 3 Defense : 1 Light Skirmish) has these possibilities:
General Skirmish (3 days)
Volley (18 days)
Shieldwall (12 days)
Feint (12 days)
The advantage may be counter intuitive, because Feint is strictly inferior to Shieldwall. The more important factor to notice, however, is that Volley is inferior to both, given the composition of units. The main reason that Volley is inferior is that it extends the duration of the skirmish phase by another six days.
Other minor, less important things to note are that archers are basically inferior to light infantry (on a retinue cap cost basis) and that the pikemen within a Goedendag retinue (+60% offense / +20% defense) with capped out cultural buildings have better bonuses than those in a Defense retinue (+20% offense / +40% defense).
Pure Goedendag comes close because it shares the tactical virtues of a pure pikeman retinue. But it only comes close because a lower proportion of the retinue cap is spent on pikemen (49% spent on pikemen), when compared to the spend within the generic Defense retinue (83% spent on pikemen).
Hypothetically, Goedendag could be better if it had less light infantry. It is mixed in for the tactics, not for the light infantry themselves.
90.35% -- Dutch - 3 Defense : 1 Goedendag -- (84.66% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
87.51% -- Goedendag Militia -- (24.82% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
79.60% -- 3 Defense : 1 Light Skirmish -- (62.65% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
79.47% -- Generic Defense -- (75.31% Against 50% Larger Enemy)
Hi Twogs,
In short, it does affect tactics.
There are a few things going on here, although it may not be intuitive. (Ultimately, it's just a calculation. The spreadsheet is not based on this kind of explanation. This kind of explanation is written as an aid to understanding.)
Because the Defense retinues contain both pikemen and archers, they do not have the virtuous tactical benefits of a truly pure pikeman retinue (which use only "General Skirmish" at first and will thus transition from skirmish sooner). Their initial skirmish possibilities are:
General Skirmish (3 days)
Volley (18 days)
Shieldwall (12 days)
The 3 Defense : 1 Goedendag (and the 3 Defense : 1 Light Skirmish) has these possibilities:
General Skirmish (3 days)
Volley (18 days)
Shieldwall (12 days)
Feint (12 days)
The advantage may be counter intuitive, because Feint is strictly inferior to Shieldwall. The more important factor to notice, however, is that Volley is inferior to both, given the composition of units. The main reason that Volley is inferior is that it extends the duration of the skirmish phase by another six days.
Other minor, less important things to note are that archers are basically inferior to light infantry (on a retinue cap cost basis) and that the pikemen within a Goedendag retinue (+60% offense / +20% defense) with capped out cultural buildings have better bonuses than those in a Defense retinue (+20% offense / +40% defense).
Pure Goedendag comes close because it shares the tactical virtues of a pure pikeman retinue. But it only comes close because a lower proportion of the retinue cap is spent on pikemen (49% spent on pikemen), when compared to the spend within the generic Defense retinue (83% spent on pikemen).
Hypothetically, Goedendag could be better if it had less light infantry. It is mixed in for the tactics, not for the light infantry themselves.
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Why do you think so? Can anyone verify that it works in that particular way?
Up until now, I've referred to the following:
http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Combat
https://www.reddit.com/r/CrusaderKi...rything_you_ever_wanted_to_know_about_combat/
According to which, this kind of benefit affects left, right, and center.
I generally don't use bookmarks myself, as I like to remember how to find things instead (can be easier / faster than making and finding the bookmarks).
For this thread you can find it with Google searching for "retinue horse lords."
If you don't remember to search exactly that, "retinues ck2" will bring you to the wiki page, where there is currently a link to this thread and the spreadsheet.
http://www.ckiiwiki.com/Retinues
(This page is down for me right now, but the Google cache works too.)
And this thread often appears in those results too.
And... I'm glad you liked the thread. Thanks!
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It was in one of the patch notes for the..... 2.4 patch maybe? No clue how I'd ever track that down, though, maybe one of the devs can jump in if they see this?
edit: earlier? No clue, will see if I can prove it with some screenshots.
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Ok, here's what I found out. Turns out I'm not crazy after all. Couldn't find where it's mentioned in patch notes, but there is at least another person on here who read the same thing as I did.
Keep in mind that it doesn't happen for Skirmish (that just gets the +30% Flanking bonus), but it definitely happens for pursuit. No clue on Melee since my battles didn't last that long...
So:
1) Throughout the Skirmish phase, if any of the flanks punch through they'll get a 30% flanking bonus when attacking other flanks.
2) If the Center Flank punches through, it will get a 270% bonus in the Pursuit phase when attacking other flanks (and possibly in Melee phase as well?)
3) If two flanks punch through, they each get 270% bonus in Pursuit for attacking the remaining flank.
Tested this out, and didn't get a single screenshot of that one time when my side flanks hadn't punched through but my center had, but it definitely got the 270% bonus.
Keep in mind that it doesn't happen for Skirmish (that just gets the +30% Flanking bonus), but it definitely happens for pursuit. No clue on Melee since my battles didn't last that long...
So:
1) Throughout the Skirmish phase, if any of the flanks punch through they'll get a 30% flanking bonus when attacking other flanks.
2) If the Center Flank punches through, it will get a 270% bonus in the Pursuit phase when attacking other flanks (and possibly in Melee phase as well?)
3) If two flanks punch through, they each get 270% bonus in Pursuit for attacking the remaining flank.
Tested this out, and didn't get a single screenshot of that one time when my side flanks hadn't punched through but my center had, but it definitely got the 270% bonus.
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Thank you, Kumicho. That is helpful.
If someone could find the code that specifies this or could demonstrate it with an in-game simulation, the wiki should be updated.
I could update it, but I'm still not exactly sure yet.
If someone could find the code that specifies this or could demonstrate it with an in-game simulation, the wiki should be updated.
I could update it, but I'm still not exactly sure yet.
So, is it better to optimize the centre, or optimize both flanks?
You two seem to likes the maths.
Peter Kirby, you should redo all of your calculations depending on how the flanks are configured.
So:
1) Throughout the Skirmish phase, if any of the flanks punch through they'll get a 30% flanking bonus when attacking other flanks.
2) If the Center Flank punches through, it will get a 270% bonus in the Pursuit phase when attacking other flanks (and possibly in Melee phase as well?)
3) If two flanks punch through, they each get 270% bonus in Pursuit for attacking the remaining flank.
Tested this out, and didn't get a single screenshot of that one time when my side flanks hadn't punched through but my center had, but it definitely got the 270% bonus.
You two seem to likes the maths.
Peter Kirby, you should redo all of your calculations depending on how the flanks are configured.