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Pbhuh

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I've often in the past made some suggestions regarding the Low Countries for Vanilla.

And while 1.30 Emperor overhauled the area in a good way, there is always something that can be improved.

1607378312614.png


-------------------------
Intro

The Low Countries are a unique area of Europe. It's a historically rich area, with easy access to the Rhine River, the Channel and the North Sea and with some natural defenses it's very interesting.

The area has a long history of self-rule and local nobility and citizens managing their own affairs, in part thanks to the hostile terrain which at times flooded and the time when vikings raided most of the coastal areas of the Franks.

Many of the states and regions that formed in the Frankish period remain.

The Coastal Area is home to the County of Flanders, the County of Holland and the Frisian Republic. These states formed because of the many Viking Raids on this land, with the Dynasty of Flanders being given the territory by the West Frankish ruler as he did not expect him to be able to hold off against the Vikings. The Frisians and this includes Holland in the early period revolted against a Viking Ruler with the Ancestor of the Dynasty of Holland plotting his murder and secured himself a state in this manner, while the rest of the Frisians remained a heavily autonomous area.

The Inland area of the Low Countries is home to many of the states that fractured away from the Duchy of Lower Lotharingia. With the Bishop of Liege and Utrecht and the Duchy of Guelders and Brabant and the rest owned by Burgundy. Brabant would become the de facto successor state of Lower Lotharingia and thus was able to claim itself a Duchy. Guelders meanwhile grew in the more conventional practices of the Holy Roman Empire and the Bishops also managed to dominate large chunks of land.

With the recent deaths of the dynasties of Brabant, Flanders, Hainaut, Luxemburg and Holland the Burgundians were able to inherit large chunks of land. Which they would solidify over the coming period. They were also able to influence the appointment of many Bishops in the Low Countries, effectively making Bishoprics like Liege, Cambray and Utrecht their vassals.

The last independant states of the Lowlands that are left are the Duke of Guelders and the Locals in Frisia.

However even their faith is tied to that of Burgundy with Guelders still being in a succession crisis between itself and Jülich-Berg which would last until 1448 with the Duke of Jülich-Berg eventually selling his claim to Burgundy.

Friesland instead was until recently in a bloody conflict known as the Great Frisian War, with much of the Frisian land now being devastated and a chief in East Frisia effectively becoming the monarch there, while the city of Groningen is becoming increasily dominant in the frisian lands bordering it. The Frisians opposed to the Chief in East Frisia promised their overlordship to the Count of Holland who at that time was the Duke of Bavaria-Straubing. Though, Burgundy would still like to press it's claim on this area and the Bishop of Utrecht has long wanted to subjugate these Frisians as well.

-------------------------

So with a brief overview of the situation in the Low Countries I will now try and attempt to make a case for a few Quality of Life Changes and Other Suggestions regarding the Low Countries and what to do with it.

Let's start with the Map

The Map

While the 1.30 update already overhauled a lot already, there were some minor nitpicks that I think would alter how the Low Countries functions somewhat and create more historical states and accurate situations:

1607380785839.png


  1. The Province of Limburg
    This was once a province ingame owned by Brabant. However with the 1.25 Patch, instead of adding in a new province to represent Upper Guelders, they instead removed a province of Brabant and reworked it into this new province.
    This I think was a mistake as this area has a unique history and is somewhat significant because of it's famous Fortress of Maastricht and it's many important sieges and battles.
    This province should not be confused with the Modern Province of Limburg. The modern province was formed from the remnants of both this Province and the Province of Upper Guelders.
    Capital: Maastricht
    Culture: Flemish (for lack of a better solution)
    Owner: Brabant
  2. The Province fo Chiny/Bouillon/Bastogne/Arlon or in general Walloon Luxemburg
    This province has sadly not been added yet and thus creates a problem ingame regarding the culture of the Luxemburg province.
    Luxemburg has for a long time been split between a French speaking populace and a German speaking one. Modern day most French speakers live in Belgian province by the same name while the German speakers live in the state of Luxemburg.
    Without this province the correct border between French and German is much harder to make. Thus I think it warrants the inclusion of a province to correct this.
    The name of the province is up to choice. There is an argument for the old county of Chiny to be the name of the province, or the province can be known as Bouillon, Bastogne or after the modern capital of this province: Arlon.
    Capital: (Depends on the name)
    Culture: Walloon
    Owner: Burgundy
    ***: With this change the province of Luxemburg proper needs to be made Rhenish Culture.
  3. Zeeland
    Zeeland is a marshy region of the Netherlands characterised by it's many Islands and it's history often was tied to the strategic nature of these Islands. While modern day a lot of Zeeland has been connected to the mainland with Polders, this is only a very recent modern thing. For most of the Europa Universalis timeframe these islands were not connected to the mainland. Thus it's clear that this province needs to be an archipelago of islands instead of a province connected to the mainland.
    This creates a strategic province which can be very useful for a player in the Low Countries who is likely to possess a large navy.
    Furthermore, it was exactly this that allowed the Watergeuzen (Dutch Rebels against the Spaniards) to conquer an important town here.
  4. The Province of Drenthe
    Drenthe is a historical county in the Low Countries which is somewhat infamous for being too poor in the period of the Dutch Republic and thus was both exempt from Taxes and did not get recognition in the States-General.
    However, poverty is relative. The province of Drenthe wouldn't stick out in germany as poor. It would be somewhat relative with regards to the nearby german provinces of Meppen or East Frisia.
    One important reason for including this province is the fact that it would help solve a border issue in the current 1.30 Map. Drenthe was under the control of the Bishop of Utrecht, but with the lack of this province. The area is split somewhat weirdly between Oversticht and Groningen.
    Capital: Coevorden (This was the seat of power of the Bishop)
    Culture: Dutch or Westphalian
    Owner: Utrecht
  5. The provinces of North Brabant
    The provinces of North Brabant needs some redrawing. The province of 's Hertogenbosch is very small compared to Breda while in history 's Hertogenbosch had it's own district in the Duchy of Brabant corrosponding to pretty much the division lined out here.
    Breda was a Magriavate with some independance and local lords.
    By making Zeeland an island, Breda can now become coastal as it should be. An important port of Bergen op Zoom is in the western part of the Province which is currently part of the province of Zeeland. By making Zeeland a few islands, this inaccuracy can also be resolved. This would also grant the Netherlands another coastal province, helping it out.
    Another point that needs to change is it's culture.
    Because Brabantian is closer to Flemish dialect, I think it makes sense to make these provinces Flemish Culture. As these areas are still somewhat unique in Dialect from the rest of the Netherlands.
  6. The Northern Coastline
    Currently, the northern coastline of Holland and Friesland and it's waddenislands are somewhat inaccurate. The current coastline is way to modern with areas being poldered in which historically were still under water. While it's a minor nitpick it helps to define the nature of what the Netherlands is.
    4 areas that need help are:
    * The Wieringermeerpolder needs to be underwater. This are would not be poldered in until 1930.
    * The Middelzee, a small estuary in the center of the Friesland Polder wouldn't be fully poldered in until well into the 17th and 18th century.
    * Lauwerszee, a somewhat sizable estuary between the province of Groningen and Friesland. This would remain a sea-arm until the 20th century when it was dammed off and became a lake.
    * The Waddenislands need some polishing to be more realistic.
  7. Rework of the region around Münster (The North)
    In the 1.30 Update, this area only gained 2 new provinces, which was Ravensberg and Dortmund.
    * The Province of Tecklenburg
    This sadly doesn't allow for a somewhat interesting state, which was the county of Tecklenburg. While already in decline in the 1400s, it would lead to some interesting history.
    Tecklenburg would soon split up between Tecklenburg and Lingen and Lingen would become part of the Dutch Republic as a territory held by the Orange-Nassau dynasty.
    This is why I think it could be an interesting addition.
    Capital: Tecklenburg or Lingen
    Culture: Westphalian
    Owner: Tecklenburg or Münster
  8. The Southern Part of Münster (The Province of Mark)
    Much like the north, only the Imperial City of Dortmund was added, and while Dortmund was very close to the County of Mark, there is still room for Mark.
    Mark was owned by Cleves. With the addition of Jülich-Berg as a tag, Cleves lost one province. Because of this I think this province should be added as this was owned by Cleves and would once again grant it it's 2nd province that it lost.
    Furthermore, it would help to create a later historical situation where the Duchy of Jülich-Berg-Cleves (The Personal Union between the two states) would be split between the Palatinate and Brandenburg-Prussia.
    Capital: Hamm
    Culture: Westphalian
    Owner: Cleves
  9. The Bishopric of Cambray
    Cambray is a one province bishopric which was under the influence of Burgundy. However, it was still a unique state in it's own right. While a new vassal of Burgundy might be too much to add, I think it makes sense to at least create a releasable tag here to represent the fact that it was still somewhat independant.
  10. The Province of Vermandois
    In a long forgotten patch, it seems that the province of Vermandois was reworked into the Province of Valois.
    One problem with this however is that Vermandois was owned by Burgundy in 1444 while Valois was part of the French nations.
    To resolve this I think it makes sense to add in Vermandois as a province.
    Vermandois held some important towns such as St. Quentin and Peronne
    Capital: St. Quentin
    Culture: Walloon (Or Picard)
    Owner: Burgundy
-------------------------

Areas:

Because of the Addition of some new provinces, some changes are needed:

First off, splitting up Frisia. Currently Gelre and Oversticht are part of Frisia. This doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's clear that the provinces didn't fit anywhere else.

So I propose to add in a new Area with the addition of the province of Drenthe:

Oversticht or Gelre Area:
The provinces of Gelre, Oversticht (Overijssel) and Drenthe

Rework of the Brabant areas:
Currently Brabant is split between North and South Brabant, this is not needed however and it makes more sense to make all Brabant provinces part of a single Area:

Brabant Area:
Provinces of Brussel. Antwerpen, Breda and 's Hertogenbosch

Instead a new area can be added:

Limburg Area:
With the addition of Limburg once more, we can add in the area of Limburg. This area is quite unique and speaks its own dialect.
The Provinces of Loon, Opper Gelre and Limburg

The province of Walloon Luxemburg can be added to Wallonia

The province of Vermandois can be added to Picardy

The province of Tecklenburg and Mark can be added to their respective nearby areas

-------------------------

The cultural setup:

As mentioned before some changes ought to be made with regards to culture or at least there needs to be further research into it with regards to how to properly represent the low countries.
1607384519375.png

This map above shows how the game currently handles the Cultures in this region.

However, this map is far too modern and does not represent the nuances that existed in 1444.
1607384900997.png

This image above shows a realistic situation of 1444.

Flemish/Dutch
Notable changes is the fact that Flemish would not be distinct from a Dutch Culture yet. This is for a simple reason. Most of Dutch Culture was seperated between a few main dialects, but most of them all saw themselves as a single group of people speaking the same language.

With Flemish culture in 1444, the game sort of jumps the gun. Flemish would take some time to emerge as a unique culture and a unified dutch culture makes more sense in 1444.

HOWEVER, I do think it makes sense to keep the Flemish culture. Perhaps as a result of some events where if the provinces are not owned by a Dutch Nation or if the Netherlands formed without Flanders the Flemish Culture appears.

It's not that Flemish wasn't a spoken dialect, it was. But so was Hollandic, Brabantian and many smaller ones. Only when Dutch was standardized based on Hollandic can we make this distinction.

Notibly the Dutch Dialectal area expands in Calais and Kleves in this timeframe and the old dialect in Cleves is still related to dutch dialects.

Picard
Picard is a tough one, we don't want to add too many cultures. But Picard is somewhat unique. It's similar to Walloon, yet it isn't. It's spoken mostly in The Picardian area and in the area of Nord-Pas de Calais.
Currently the provinces are split between Walloon and Francien.
With this addition most provinces in Picardy can be made Picard with exception of Calais as noted above. A tough choice has to be made regarding Hainaut. Dialectially it's closer to Picard, while culturally today it's part of Wallonia.

Westphalian Dialects in the Netherlands
Another issue that appears is that most of the Eastern part of the Netherlands does not originally speak a dutch dialect. They instead speak a Low Saxon dialect which is very closely related to Westphalian. While a design choice can be made by making the province of Oversticht dutch as it was the only province which really made sense in this regard. With the optional addition of Drenthe, this can be done somewhat easier. Gelre is partially Low Saxon even today, but the issue here lies it's only part of the province.

Frisian
The Frisian culture outlined here can be somewhat ignored. While Frisian was somewhat more widespread, the area it covers aren't really worthy of a new province, even though some of the areas were somewhat rich.

-------------------------

Additional Flavor and Fixes:

Centers of Trade
As with a few other things in the Low Countries, a lot of things are not proper in the 1444 startdate and are more geared towards later periods.

One notable example is the distribution of Center of Trades.

Currently all three provinces of Brugge, Amsterdam and Antwerp have a center of trade level 2.

This is not correct for 1444.

In 1444 one of the largest centers of trade in the Low Countries was Brugge. It had it's own hansa kontor, was the primary harbor for many goods in the Low Countries and the rich trade of Flemish Cloth further made it very important.

It was in fact so important that it deserves to be a Level 3 Center of Trade on par with cities like Venice and Genoa.

However, Amsterdam and Antwerp, while they would become important later DO NOT deserve to be level 2 centers of trade. They were only marginal at this point in time with Amsterdam technically still being a small town no where near what it would become in 2 centuries. Antwerp was a bit more important, but not yet as mentioned before most Trade went to Brugge.

BUT, this would soon change. You see, the City of Brugge was connected to the sea by the Golden Inlet, a channel created by a stormtide a few decades ago. This channel however was slowly starting to sand up and Brugge was starting to lose importance.

To replicate this, I think an event is in order to remove the Level 3 center of Trade of brugge and downgrade it to level 1 as some local harbors remained who supplied Brugge.

Instead, this event should make Antwerp the new Level 3 Center of Trade. Antwerp was the primary benefactor of the fall of Brugge and because of the Burgundians would grow to become very influental.

Much like Brugge, Antwerp grew out to be a large city with a lot of wealth.

However, as faith had struck Brugge, so did faith strike Antwerp.

When the Protestants in the Netherlands revolted against the Spanish Rule, many of the rich cities such as Antwerp joined them. This would soon be fatal for them however as the Spanish were harsh on the city and besieged it a few times. Not only that, the Spanish Mercenaries hired to fight the protestants soon would no longer be paid and would go on a rampage further destroying Antwerp.

With this, many protestants fled north to a small town in a save protestant area:

Amsterdam

Much like how an event controls Brugge's downfall, the same should happen to Antwerp. This would instead make Amsterdam if owned by Protestants/Reformed/Anglican/Hussite a Level 3 Center of Trade.

Overijssel and the Hansa
While we just discussed the Ports of Brugge, Amsterdam and Antwerp. There were other major centers of Trade in the Low Countries.

One currently overlooked, both in development and the lack of a Center of Trade is Oversticht (Overijssel)

Oversticht was relatively wealthy in 1444 and harbored two Hanseatic Cities, The city of Kampen and the City of Deventer. Not only that, Zwolle was quite wealthy as well.
This province should thus also be made a level 1 center of Trade.

The Development of the Province should also be increased to represent the fact that it was somewhat wealthy.

Hollandic Ideas

One of the only large nations in the Low Countries without unique Ideas.

Sadly Holland has been given Dutch Ideas.

As explained before Dutch =/= Hollandic, at least not yet.

So I think it makes sense to add unique Hollandic Ideas,

I recently came up with some of them:
Code:
HOL_ideas = {
    start = {
        navy_tradition = 1
        naval_morale = 0.1
    }
 
    bonus = {
        naval_forcelimit_modifier = 0.25
    }

    trigger = {
        tag = HOL
    }
    free = yes        #will be added at load.
 
    hol_swampy_land = {
        defensiveness = 0.10
        hostile_attrition = 1
    }
    hol_monding_rivieren = {
         embargo_efficiency = 0.05
         trade_efficiency = 0.05
    }
    hol_dutch_courage = {
        land_morale = 0.1
    }
    hol_land_of_migrants = {
        num_accepted_cultures = 1
        promote_culture_cost = -0.25
    }
    hol_oostzeehandel = {
         global_ship_cost = -0.1
         merchants = 1
    }
    hol_amstelredam = {
        inflation_reduction = 0.1
        trade_efficiency = 0.05
    }
    hol_polders = {
        development_cost = -0.1
    }
}

HOL_ideas:0 "Hollandic Ideas"
HOL_ideas_start:0 "Hollandic Traditions"
HOL_ideas_bonus:0 "Hollandic Ambition"
hol_polders:0 "Polders"
hol_polders_desc:0 "Holland is highly susceptible to flooding and in the unsettled weather of the 11th - 14th centuries there were multiple floods leading to the creation of the Zuiderzee and also salting the soil of coastal areas. We now have the technology to reclaim land allowing more productive agriculture."
hol_amstelredam:0 "Founding of Amstelredam"
hol_amstelredam_desc:0 "On the River Amstel a Dam was built which would soon grow to be one of the largest cities in the Low Countries. Many migrants would flock to this new city of Amsterdam"
hol_oostzeehandel:0 "Oostzeehandel"
hol_oostzeehandel_desc:0 "The Baltic Sea was of vital importance to Holland. With the Trade in the Baltics, the Hollanders were able to get the Wood they needed to build their ships and cities and the Grain they needed to feed the People and their Precious Cattle."
hol_land_of_migrants:0 "Het Land van Migranten"
hol_land_of_migrants_desc:0 "Holland has throughout history been a safehaven for many groups of people. These migrants brought with them many inventions and knowledge. They helped Holland become the most important Region of the Netherlands and would propel the Netherlands to become a World Power."
hol_swampy_land:0 "Marshes of Holland"
hol_swampy_land_desc:0 "Much of Holland was covered in marshes and large amounts of peatbog. The land was hostile to anyone not familiar with it's surrounding allowing the Count of Holland to easily ambush many of his enemies."
hol_monding_rivieren:0 "Rivierendelta"
hol_monding_rivieren_desc:0 "Holland was located at the mouth of the River Delta of the Rhine, Scheldt and Meuse. These rivers would at times change course and were excellent for Trading as they allowed the cities further up the river to be connected to the North Sea. By exploiting this strategic location we can become very powerful."
hol_dutch_courage:0 "Dutch Courage"
hol_dutch_courage_desc:0 "Foreign soldiers often remark on the bravery of our troops. Whether their bravery is caused by rations of gin as the foreigners believe, or by our superlative training regimen, it is not clear."

With regards to the Dutch Ideas,

I would like to update them somewhat.

The Dutch Traditions currently give +50% Naval Forcelimit and +25% Sailor Modifiers, which is good. But I don't feel the Dutch really need this.

I think replacing the +25% Sailor Modifier with Naval Leader Fire +2 from (Instructie voor de Admiraliteiten) and nerf the +50% naval forcelimit to +25% makes more sense as its tradition
With (Instructie voor de Admiraliteiten) being replaced with a bit more flavorful of an idea called:
Raid on Medway
This exploit of the Dutch Marines and Navy was very impressive, sinking a large portion of the British Fleet and taking some Ships with them.
Instead of the Naval Leader Fire +2, this can be replaced with Ship Capture Chance +10% as a reference to the theft of some British ships. The marine force limit can stay as it makes sense as they were used in the Battle.

Releasable Tags
There are 3 releasable nations I feel would make sense:

1. In the province of Groningen
The Independant city state of Groningen
This state would become somewhat independant when Friesland fell under the influence of Saxony. Groningen would then remain as a powerful city and was something the Dutch Rulers had to deal with when the city remained Catholic in the 80 Years war.

2. In the Province of Artois
The County of Artois
Artois was seperated from Flanders and would remain a county in personal union with Burgundy. I believe it should become a core that can be released.
Later the Habsburg Netherlands became split between the Union of Utrecht and Arras. Artois makes sense for this as well.

3. In the Province of Cambray
As mentioned before the Prince Bishopric of Cambray

4. In the Province of Namur
The County of Namur
Much like Artois, it was a title held in Personal union by the Burgundians. It had it's own stadholder who had some power.

East Frisian Government Type

With the 1.30 Update after a long request, the government type of Friesland was changed to a peasant republic.
But East Frisia was changed too.

While it could be argued to be correct, it leads to a problem where Cirksena doesn't get reelected, even though he pretty much conquered most of East Frisia by force.

Because of this, it makes more sense if it was a Monarchy as that's what it had already become.

Peasant Republics becoming Free Cities

Another issue that appears with Peasant Republics is that they can quite easily become an Imperial City in the HRE. This is sorta weird historically, because most peasant republics had no major city center and were instead a rural agragrian society.

I think it makes sense to not allow the emperor to grant these states Imperial City Status.

-------------------------

End note:

I am bound to have made some mistakes and will update things accordingly or clarify things.

I would love to hear some feedback from other Lowlanders and other people if they think this makes sense.

Sources:

1607390034959.png
1607390092866.png
1607390148922.png
1607390227940.png

BONUS:
1607389842975.png

Please split up Schleswig into this:
1. North Friesland (Frisian culture)
2. Schleswig (Early on Danish Culture, later perhaps Lower Saxon?)
3. Abenraa/Haderslev or Tonder (Danish Culture)
 
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AirikrStrife

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We don't need a formable for frisia, possible frisia as a re-formable if you play as east frisia and don't like that name
 
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Pbhuh

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We don't need a formable for frisia, possible frisia as a re-formable if you play as east frisia and don't like that name

Or a more simple solution is to use the new renaming system introduced.

Friesland as a name for a country is less prestigious and flavorful than Magna Frisia or Greater Frisia


In a way Friesland is more of a Rumpstate of the once large kingdom.
 
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Aquamancer

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Well ideally if Frisia is being added as a tag it would be for Friesland and not for Burgundy. I assume he was giving the example for Burgundy to show the idea of a Kingdom of Frisia isn't too far fetched.
Yeah, that's what I was going for: after all, while in theory the dukes of Burgundy could've adopted the title of the king of Frisia, it is unclear what difference there would've been for adopting the title of the king of Frisia over the king of Lotharingia. How that would've affected the development of Burgundy? Would it justify national ideas or missions that differ from those of Lotharingia?

We don't need a formable for frisia, possible frisia as a re-formable if you play as east frisia and don't like that name
Don't we? In my personal opinion, the difference between Friesland and Frisia is the same as that of Mongolia and Mongol Empire, or Great Horde and Golden Horde, or arguably even Byzantium and Roman Empire. While they have the same name, they're distinct entities and should be represented as such in-game.

Or a more simple solution is to use the new renaming system introduced.

Friesland as a name for a country is less prestigious and flavorful than Magna Frisia or Greater Frisia


In a way Friesland is more of a Rumpstate of the once large kingdom.
Friesland isn't really a rump state, seeing that there is no direct administrative continuity between the old kingdom of Frisia and the Friesland in modern Netherlands. Friesland of 1444 is just the last remnant of the Frisian freedom from the Middle Ages.
 

AirikrStrife

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Yeah, that's what I was going for: after all, while in theory the dukes of Burgundy could've adopted the title of the king of Frisia, it is unclear what difference there would've been for adopting the title of the king of Frisia over the king of Lotharingia. How that would've affected the development of Burgundy? Would it justify national ideas or missions that differ from those of Lotharingia?


Don't we? In my personal opinion, the difference between Friesland and Frisia is the same as that of Mongolia and Mongol Empire, or Great Horde and Golden Horde, or arguably even Byzantium and Roman Empire. While they have the same name, they're distinct entities and should be represented as such in-game.


Friesland isn't really a rump state, seeing that there is no direct administrative continuity between the old kingdom of Frisia and the Friesland in modern Netherlands. Friesland of 1444 is just the last remnant of the Frisian freedom from the Middle Ages.

The difference between Friesland and Frisia is the difference between Netherlands and Nederlands, purely linguistic and then (sometimes) used retroactively to distinguish sifferent eras, just liek there is no difference between roman empire and byzantine empire, byzantine is just a scholarly word to describe a later part of roman history.

For me personally I'm using frisia and friesland interchangably and while typing this I don't even remember which is which and I frequently forget which one is used in the game.

But we don't need it because it has no major historical precedence or antecedent, atm frisia has the dutch mission tree and can form netherlands, there's no need for frisia for exampel to have a new idea set they can change to (besides the dutch), they would get claim on pretty much the territory needed to form them. Only reason I think having it rteformable is a possible idea is to get rid of the 'east' part of east frisia
 
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Aquamancer

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The difference between Friesland and Frisia is the difference between Netherlands and Nederlands, purely linguistic and then (sometimes) used retroactively to distinguish sifferent eras, just liek there is no difference between roman empire and byzantine empire, byzantine is just a scholarly word to describe a later part of roman history.

For me personally I'm using frisia and friesland interchangably and while typing this I don't even remember which is which and I frequently forget which one is used in the game.

But we don't need it because it has no major historical precedence or antecedent, atm frisia has the dutch mission tree and can form netherlands, there's no need for frisia for exampel to have a new idea set they can change to (besides the dutch), they would get claim on pretty much the territory needed to form them. Only reason I think having it rteformable is a possible idea is to get rid of the 'east' part of east frisia
I dunno, to me, it feels kind of redundant to play as a Frisian nation with the ultimate goal of forming the Netherlands. If I wanted to play a nation with the goal of forming the Netherlands, I'd play a Dutch minor, like Holland. If I wanted to play as a Frisian tag like Friesland or East Frisia, I would like to actually do things differently from the Dutch tags to the south, rather than aspiring to form another variant of the Netherlands. And to me, restoring the old Kingdom of Frisia or defending the Frisian Freedom would seem like such a task.

And maybe it's just me, but in my personal opinion, I would prefer "Frisia" as the primary tag of Frisian culture as opposed to "Friesland". I suppose it's because I associate Friesland with the Dutch province, whereas I associate Frisia with the independent and united Frisians, whether Kingdom of Frisia, Frisian freedom, or modern Frisian nationalism and language: possibly because Frisia is the contemporary English term, rather than Friesland.
 

AirikrStrife

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I dunno, to me, it feels kind of redundant to play as a Frisian nation with the ultimate goal of forming the Netherlands. If I wanted to play a nation with the goal of forming the Netherlands, I'd play a Dutch minor, like Holland. If I wanted to play as a Frisian tag like Friesland or East Frisia, I would like to actually do things differently from the Dutch tags to the south, rather than aspiring to form another variant of the Netherlands. And to me, restoring the old Kingdom of Frisia or defending the Frisian Freedom would seem like such a task.

And maybe it's just me, but in my personal opinion, I would prefer "Frisia" as the primary tag of Frisian culture as opposed to "Friesland". I suppose it's because I associate Friesland with the Dutch province, whereas I associate Frisia with the independent and united Frisians, whether Kingdom of Frisia, Frisian freedom, or modern Frisian nationalism and language: possibly because Frisia is the contemporary English term, rather than Friesland.


I think you should try voltaire's nightmare, it's really fun playing frisia there! You can really do a whole frisia run for 200 years.

Because I agree on some base points, I did draft a frisian mission tree unique to establishing the historical frisian lands, but the devs slapped the dutch mission tree on frisians and were happy enough wih that. I get your point about frisia not being netherlands, in my proposal for new frisian ideas I removed all references to the dutch and wanted to make more a unique experience, in the end though the area is too small for anything except the most insane tall game. That's why VN is a better choice to play as frisia as you can actually play a campaign just in that area.

Anyway, to me frisia and friesland are as I said synonymous, when talking about the region I often call it Fryslan, but to me these sort of localization thing is often just confusing me xd
 

Pbhuh

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I think you should try voltaire's nightmare, it's really fun playing frisia there! You can really do a whole frisia run for 200 years.

Because I agree on some base points, I did draft a frisian mission tree unique to establishing the historical frisian lands, but the devs slapped the dutch mission tree on frisians and were happy enough wih that. I get your point about frisia not being netherlands, in my proposal for new frisian ideas I removed all references to the dutch and wanted to make more a unique experience, in the end though the area is too small for anything except the most insane tall game. That's why VN is a better choice to play as frisia as you can actually play a campaign just in that area.

Anyway, to me frisia and friesland are as I said synonymous, when talking about the region I often call it Fryslan, but to me these sort of localization thing is often just confusing me xd

i will butt in again,

but yeah

I don't think Frisia should be a formable.

But Magna Frisia could be or could be a decision.

As said before Frisia splintered, and I like to describe the current Friesland ingame as a rumpstate, even though it wasn't a continuation of Magna Frisia. But in essence it would be the last remnant of Frisia.

Holland was already lost when the counts became dutch speaking and as did the land. Friesland further split when East Frisia seperated itself and the dynasty of Ulrich came to rule East Frisia. Groningen and the Ommelanden would soon become a single entity as well, leaving just the province of Friesland today.

It's in essence rather interesting and Friesland would play an important role in the Dutch Republic as well, having it's own Stadholders as compared to Holland (And Zeeland and others)

- - - - - -

With regards to missions,

I made a suggestion a while back when emperor released about missions here:

 
Suggested Rework of Dutch Missions

Pbhuh

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1608541633772.png


Side by Side, the Old on the Left and my Suggested Fixes to the Dutch Missions:

Unite the Netherlands Branch
1. Assert Sovereignty: now also requires 100% Army Forcelimit
2. Unite the Lowlands: should lower it's requirements as it's rather crazy. Instead I suggest it requires you to own 200 development in the Low Countries Region and 8 Provinces
3. Lowlands Reconquest: now has the requirements of the Unite the Lowlands missions
4. Leo Belgicus: is a new mission with the requirements of Lowlands Reconquest. It should grant a permanent prestige modifier and 250 gold

Early Naval/Trade Branch
1. Build up the Navy: A new mission requiring you to have 100% Naval Force Limit and 2 Shipyards
2. Zeemacht: Replaces Challenge Spanish Power, should require you to have an equal Navy to a Rival Major Power
3. Kaasmarkten: A new mission requiring you to own a province with Livestock and have at least 2 Marketplaces: Grants you strengthened tradepower in the baltic and a Naval Trade Casus Belli on Lübeck.
4. Moedernegotie: Reworked Support the Bulk Trades mission, reward changed to grant 500 gold

Statists/Orangists Branch
1. Modernize the Estates: Rename of Generality Lands (Generality Lands are an odd choice for the requirement and are historically not really related to it, instead I propose to mention how Feudalism didn't hold much influence in the Low Countries and the Estates therefore were less important)
2. Stock Exchange: Rename of The True Freedom (Should highlight the requirement more by focusing on the founding of the Amsterdam Stock Exchange)
The reward should also add a Stock Exchange building to Amsterdam
3. Maurician Reforms: I would focus the requirement on 50 army tradition, 30% Professionalism and granting 250 Military Power as well as strenghtening the Orangists
4. Regents' Contracts: Should require both Legitimacy/Republican Tradition and Nobilty Loyalty of 50

Exploration/Colonial Branch
1. (x) University: (Depending on culture name it Leiden (for Dutch), Leuven (for Flemish) and Franeker (for Frisian).
Rework the mission to instead require you to have 2 or 3 advisors of level 3, grant a University based on previous culture differences in the provinces of: Den Haag (4383), Brussel (92) or Friesland (100).
2. Mercator: A new mission requiring you to have discovered a province in Colonial Eastern America, Colonial Carribean, Colonial Brazil, Guinea Charter and South African Charter. Grants you an explorer and colonial range from the Invest in the Rich Trades mission
3. Charter the WIC now requires you to have 33% Trade Power in Guinea
4. Charter the VOC requires you to have discovered any province in the Coromandel and Indonesian Charter or Moluccan Charter
5. Kaapstad: Requires you to own or colonize Kaap/Cape (1177) - rewards you with extra colonial range and reduced naval attrition (cape town was an important pass by for Dutch ships to and from the East)
6. Land in New Holland: Rework of Discover Australia, requires you to have at least 1 province in Colonial Australia, perhaps this could happen through an event if the provinces in western australia are uncolonized. (Historically the Dutch would frequently land in New Holland when they would be blown off course on their way to Batavia. It makes sense to incorporate this into the mission, further the name desperately needed to be changed. The flavor needs to focus on the Netherlands and how they discovered Australia, not on what the current name of the country is.)
7. Discover the Hudson: Requires you to have discovered all provinces in the Hudson Valley, grants settler increase modifier
8. Settle New Amsterdam: requires you to own Manhattan (965), rewards it with a marketplace and a permanent claim on the Hudson valley
9. Beaver Fur Trade: requires the Netherlands to an alliance with a Native American Tribe and x% of trade in Furs
10. Establish Dutch Guyana (or Establish Suriname): Requires you to own 3 provinces in Guyana or Suriname, grants a 5% Settler Chance modifier
11. Colonize Brazil: Requires you to have a colonial Nation in Brazil or Colombia with at least 10 provinces, rewards 15% Global Tarifs



- - - - -

Notes:

The idea behind this rework is to have sensible progression in the Dutch Tree and seperate different Branches with Different focuses away from eachother. You shouldn't be required to have trade in the Baltic to gain access to Colonial missions as a player probably won't be focussing on both at the same time.

Further, there was a desperate need for more flavor. While many missions granted you the idea of playing the Netherlands, some things needed improvements. By telling the story of New Amsterdam, the Amsterdam Stock Exchange, the Dutch Cheese Markets, there is a more historical tale to be told.
 
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Entrone

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While I really love the original suggestion, as it collects most of the little changes that could give historical accuracy and flavour, I miss one thing:

Ypres.

If it was separated from Brugge, it could represent the French-Belgian border shift. If France owns the province it could be renamed Dunkirk, if Netherlands/Burgundy etc.. then it could remain Ypres. Currently if you want to own Rysel/Lille as France like in reality you will have weird looking borders, either less or more than what it is right now. Indeed it's not really a pressing issue, but given the importance and wealth of Flanders one more province seems completely justified with all of it's advantages.

Aside from this I find the suggestion great, would be good to see especially Drenthe and Limburg, but Vermandois, Luxembourg, Berg-Mark and sea-Zeeland would be all welcomed additions, besides Ypres ^^
 
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Pbhuh

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What about Sedan Principality? It was an sovereign state in the XVIst century

Ive tried to primarily focus on the Low Countries and anything somewhat related to it.

Sedan while interesting, fits more in a suggestion about France.

While I really love the original suggestion, as it collects most of the little changes that could give historical accuracy and flavour, I miss one thing:

Ypres.

If it was separated from Brugge, it could represent the French-Belgian border shift. If France owns the province it could be renamed Dunkirk, if Netherlands/Burgundy etc.. then it could remain Ypres. Currently if you want to own Rysel/Lille as France like in reality you will have weird looking borders, either less or more than what it is right now. Indeed it's not really a pressing issue, but given the importance and wealth of Flanders one more province seems completely justified with all of it's advantages.

Aside from this I find the suggestion great, would be good to see especially Drenthe and Limburg, but Vermandois, Luxembourg, Berg-Mark and sea-Zeeland would be all welcomed additions, besides Ypres ^^

Ypres is very important, but in a way, also not.

Geographically, culturally and changing of ownership through history it didn't become separate from the rest of what is roughly now known as West Flanders.

And that makes it tough.

1000px-Kasselrijen_in_Vlaanderen_(1680).svg.png
DSC_0033-2.jpg

As you can see Ypres was its own small territorial unit, but this one would be too small to add.

If the area around Cassel/Dunkirk was added, there would be an improved border later into the game. But its a tough choice as Cassel/Dunkirk were less important than Ypres, but Ypres never really was all that different from the current Brugge province and is still in West Flanders today.

With regards to changing the province based on who owns it, that could work, but it would not be perfect.

Its rough.
 

Brunwulf

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Sedan was part then independant of the Duchy of Bouillon and Liege which is part of the Low Countries Region and kinda Picardie. So for me it has his place in your post likeyou said with Cambrais. There is still the duchy of Bouillon also also which takes his autonomy in Liege near our date of 1444 (1456 ), independant in the XVIIth and annexed by France only with revolution.
 
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Entrone

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Indeed, but I'm all in for this province, somehow like this:
Flanders.jpg

dd_ned_edit.png

In this case, the border wont be historical, just like currently, but the players had the choice that either France or the Low Countries own a bit of the other, while still having realistic borders.

While this region just have been updated twice in the near past, I hope we don't have to wait years till it will be touched again.
 
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Pbhuh

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Yes, its definitely an option.

I think this map, of the Low Countries in Napoleon's French Empire shows some interesting things as well:

1609942474856.png


in a way something like this could be tried

1609942611539.png


But again it would be more Dunkirk/Cassel, and sadly not Ypres.

Roughly similar to this as well

1609942758422.png
 
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gronak

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Great post. Just read a few days ago about parts of the Netherlands (Gelre and Oversticht) being Lower Saxon speaking, this is the first post I've seen on the forums showing German culture in parts, it's nice to see.

It would be nice to see the Netherlands cultures in their own culture group - the way the AI works they expand too much into Germany or from Germany into Netherlands.
 

AirikrStrife

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Dutch people and germans are both offshots of medieval germans, by 1600 dutch were still considered germans, also in their national anthem they song they're of german blood :p
It's really the dutch revolution which came to create dutch identity and eventually distinguish them from germans (remember germans were a very heterogen group at the time)
 

gronak

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Dutch people and germans are both offshots of medieval germans, by 1600 dutch were still considered germans, also in their national anthem they song they're of german blood :p
It's really the dutch revolution which came to create dutch identity and eventually distinguish them from germans (remember germans were a very heterogen group at the time)

That's true, but I think it would make for better gameplay - Dutch countries not expanding too much into Germany. The problem really lies with the cultures being used as a guide for the AI on where to expand. In this scenario, 'Germans' could still invade the Netherlands since they are very likely to accept Dutch culture given it's high development provinces then they'll desire the rest, but it will help with a Netherlands that has for some ungodly reason decided to be a militaristic powerhouse as then they would expand into the Germanic cultures that they accepted rather than as much of Germany as possible.

Would also be nice to see events with the Dutch revolution in regards to culture, perhaps during this event the culture could flip into a non german culture group version, or simply Gelre and Oversticht switching to Dutch culture. It can be difficult determining the culture in game though when it's based on a mix of culture, language, a guide for the AI and also for balance reasons.
 
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Mr.Grizzly

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If Ypres is being added, since dynamic names are usually used it should have the Dutch name and not the French name that we also use in English, so it should be called Ieper. Also I don't think it should switch between Dunkirk and Ypres, those are different settlements, just switch between Ieper for Dutch and Ypres for French, or make it Duinkerke for Dutch and Dunkerque for French.