• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Imp0815

Captain
98 Badges
Jun 26, 2012
365
591
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
It may not be designed for competitive play, but plenty of people play the game in a competitive pvp setting. If it wasn't fun for them, they wouldn't do that. There's nothing wrong with playing with a competitive mindset, and min-maxing isn't a perversion of the game mechanics. The purpose of a game is to be fun, and fun is subjective. What's fun for others may not be fun for you, but that doesn't mean that it's wrong for them to enjoy the game how they like, and it doesn't mean that the game is bad.

It wasn't a "perversion of game mechanics" to ignore corvettes/destroyers/cruisers and just use neutron launcher battleships every game back when they were overpowered, that's just using good strategy. Same for picking strong civics like masterful crafters over things like byzantine bureaucracy. The game doesn't have to be balanced for competitive play and it isn't, but there's nothing wrong with people who use the game mechanics to their advantage.

If I went into a casual pvp game with some fun role play build just trying to role play I wouldn't have any right to complain when I get rushed down and killed year 10 or year 30 by a min-maxed hive mind, clone army, or determined exterminator that can put out 5x my amount of ships because they have better origins, civics, and player micromanagement. That's just how the game goes. The strong survive and the weak are absorbed.

For what it's worth, I don't actually enjoy Stellaris MP except with friends, it's basically a battle royale game with some extra diplomacy that takes hours instead of a few minutes. If I wanted to play a game where I lose if I'm not the best out of 30 players every game I'd just go play Apex or Fortnite or something. But there's nothing wrong with enjoying it or min-maxing.


Thank you for your though out and differentiated post.

Some things i seem to have badly formulated. First I did not say or imply that the game is bad. I really like big parts of it and i like how most of the game is designed in a way to allow many play styles and different experiences and i whole heartily support it if we get more and much diverse ones. In short its a really good game!

I don't want to spread out the whole competitive discussion here as i think everybody involved knows this is not a competitive game and should not be treat as such (and hopefully never will). Which is a good segway into my argument i wanted to clarify with my last paragraph: The Military interactions like fleet compositions, ship design, how combat is a hands-off real-time simulation and the all-in Doomstack engagements is a design meant to foster a play style to interact with Espionage and counter designing ships that is just not good implemented and not fun.

The hypothetical reality would be that one war participant builds a counter fleet that will be countered after the first engagement if the other party has time to react and redesign its whole fleet. The reality is nobody really bothers with this, calculates the best one-size-fits-all ships/fleets and resolves wars with just more numbers. But i admit there is a niche when the crisis hist as the information what they are weak against is readily available.

Overall the more and longer i think and talk about this i always come to the conclusion this could be better and we finally need a rework of this system that has a major part in the game and was really never touched up properly.
(Well we once got the fleet manager which was already a step forward but just a band aid for a lacking system)
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

Khaali

Second Lieutenant
59 Badges
May 11, 2018
164
322
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Island Bound
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
By my understanding, if you have 1000 hull, 1000 armor, 1000 shields,

Yes, in theory, yes. But no ship will have these values. Hull is usually much lower, and Shields would be much higher (at least in theory because Shields give the largest amount of hit points per slot, in practice armor is the most because shields are too expensive power wise.

Your calculation should look more like this. You have 500 Hull and 2000 Shields. Now you can calculate how much shield hardening is needed so that in the best case both go down simultaneously.
 
Last edited:

Less2

Banned
Jan 20, 2016
3.737
5.036
Yes, in theory, yes. But no ship will have these values. Hull is usually much lower, and Shields would be much higher (at least in theory because Shields give the largest amount of hit points per slot, in practice armor is the most because shields are too expensive power wise.

Your calculation should look more like this. You have 500 Hull and 2000 Shields. Now you can calculate how much shield hardening is needed so that in the best case both go down simultaneously.
It really depends on your distribution. In my experience (with my tech priorities, my research unlocks, and my ideal weapon/aug slot loadouts, the special projects I tend to end up getting, all very subjective), I have to have way more armor than shields. We have to also consider whether armor hardening should he taken, and it may be the case that shield hardening should be skipped, or even that shields entirely should be skipped in favor of armor + armor hardening. Just throwing down some quick battleships I get 3k hull, ~7k armor and ~2.6k shield. That would make shield hardening more than 21% useless.

I'll be honest, I never bother really optimizing much for specific enemies. I pick whatever gives me the highest DPS and the highest sublight speed, because mostly I just want to win wars quickly and go fast. 450 speed corvette spam is the way to play the game. Slap on a leader with the engineer trait and just order it around.

Incidentally, Engineer and other regen boosting equipment seems to be changed. It now says (for engineer) "Daily Hull/Armor Regen: +10%". Was it actually buffed so insanely hard that all ships now regen in 10 days or less, or is something odd going on?
 
Last edited:

Red S

Corporal
Feb 21, 2023
35
94
Incidentally, Engineer and other regen boosting equipment seems to be changed. It now says (for engineer) "Daily Hull/Armor Regen: +10%". Was it actually buffed so insanely hard that all ships now regen in 10 days or less, or is something odd going on?
There was a change in 3.6 such that Hull and Armor Regen is something like 5x faster when out of combat (or only 20% speed while in combat, take your pick). Shields already worked this way.
The intended effect being that Hull/Armor regen is much more effective than it used to be for repairing between fights, while not making it ludicrously OP for active combat.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Less2

Banned
Jan 20, 2016
3.737
5.036
There was a change in 3.6 such that Hull and Armor Regen is something like 5x faster when out of combat (or only 20% speed while in combat, take your pick). Shields already worked this way.
The intended effect being that Hull/Armor regen is much more effective than it used to be for repairing between fights, while not making it ludicrously OP for active combat.
So, I take it that means that in-combat regeneration is 1/5th, meaning when it says 10% it actually means 2% per day? That's a much more reasonable number.
 

Starfire Breeze

First Lieutenant
2 Badges
Oct 8, 2022
256
273
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
So, I take it that means that in-combat regeneration is 1/5th, meaning when it says 10% it actually means 2% per day? That's a much more reasonable number.
(As an aside, this is one of Stellaris' many (miserable) discoverability problems: Stellaris uses an 'x% modifier' to mean completely different things, all over the place. There's no firm consistency on how the modifiers work, nor how the UI presents them, and good luck figuring it out as a player unless the wiki custodians happened to dig out the details for you (and you know where to look on the wiki to find that).

For example, sometimes +x% means addition. Sometimes it means multiplication. Sometimes it means that it applies to the *base* value of an attribute in question (discounting any other modifiers), sometimes it means that it applies to the total cumulative value of an attribute in question.)

Back on topic, I haven't experimented in combat yet with all the new technologies. I worry a bit that there's a (massive) MMO-like "power creep" going on here with this expansion, though, especially with the buildings, where these have severely distorting effects on gameplay.

Some of the ship components seem to be a bit similar, but I haven't yet, as mentioned, gotten to the point to trying them all out. The ancient nano-missiles, for example, are completely penetrating (with a bonus to hull) and they have basically the same fire rate as PD. I'd gotten to the point the other day of changing out the standard 6 disruptors on my typical Torpedo Cruisers with 3 disruptors and 3 of the ancient nano-missile, but I haven't had a chance to try them in a real combat situation yet. But each of those firing at the same rate as PD - that's an awful lot of PD saturation to provide more "air cover" for your Torpedoes that seems like it could be worrisomely distorting to whether it's even possible to protect your capital ships from torpedoes anymore... I'll have to see whether it actually turns out to work in practice or not, though.

(I'd have considered putting them on my standard PD destroyers too for the not-very-useful S-slot, except destroyers get, well, destroyed, all the time, and that's a huge tax of Minor Artifacts down the drain continuously to replace them.)

Edit: One other observation is that Minor Artifacts ship components seem to have a few possible knock-on consequences :

1) First they lean in with yet more enthusiasm towards the (rather unpleasantly configured) disengagement mechanics. Because Minor Artifacts are a fairly supply-constrained resource (yet with low maximum resource cap?) in comparison to e.g. Alloys which you can get more of - it's just expensive - there's more incentive for ships to prefer disengagement as that means that one's Minor Artifacts aren't depleted building replacement ships.

2) For similar reasons, it seems like it's probably inadvisable to put a lot of Minor Artifact ship components on smaller ships, because these get destroyed all the time, and that's going to be a huge drain on resources to keep replacing. So that's Cruisers, Battleships, and above.


While the thread mostly talked about *ship* components, the Zroni Storm Caster seemed similarly incredibly power creep-ified as well on the defense side. Forget the pulsar shield negation; is it now the case that any system that's *either* an ionized nebula *or* a neutron star can get that 90% sublight speed reduction, that makes wiping out the Autocannon-heavy-fleets that the AI is so (inappropriately) fond of very, very trivial, with the Storm Caster deployed? I haven't gotten to see it yet, but, yikes; I'm not really sure what the balance design points were here beyond "stir vigorously"...
 
Last edited:

z3rO_

Sergeant
25 Badges
Nov 13, 2022
54
68
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Island Bound
  • Prison Architect: Psych Ward
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III
The ancient nano-missiles, for example, are completely penetrating (with a bonus to hull) and they have basically the same fire rate as PD.

Yea, I was thinking about those too. They look like, basically higher range disruptors. And Disruptors have a drawback of having smaller range.
Those maybe look usable.
 

Starfire Breeze

First Lieutenant
2 Badges
Oct 8, 2022
256
273
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
Yea, I was thinking about those too. They look like, basically higher range disruptors. And Disruptors have a drawback of having smaller range.
Those maybe look usable.
I'm curious about both the overwhelming-the-PD and a-better-disruptor aspects. Though I usually don't recall having too many problems getting torpedoes through the AI's fleets in general...

The thinking with putting half disruptors and half nano missiles on the Torpedo Cruisers is that at least (if this part of the post-combat report can be believed, unlike the ship losses part) I can ask the question - "are the disruptors or the nano missile doing more damage". But we'll see next time I have a chance to try things out.

Otherwise, perhaps the new shield component (with hardening) might be a reasonable idea for battleships. Mainly curious to see if that reduces how many battleships get lost due to Arc Emitters in larger engagements.

Since the AI still (sigh...) is unwisely over-fixated on Autocannons, armor still seems like it's probably a better idea for PD destroyers/Torpedo Cruisers to have more armor than shield investment (and the same considerations as above for spending those Minor Artifacts on destroyers that are going to get blown up all the time apply).

I'm not sure how best to gauge which of these options tends to work better, though. Even if the post-combat report is trustworthy about damage done, it doesn't have any way to see what sorts of ships took damage from what, and that, for example, might help inform whether it's actually useful to put the new shield component on those Battleships, or not. In either case, I suppose I'll see the next time I have a chance to play.

A pity that there seems to be such a focus on different components for Stellaris but the tools to actually evaluate how they work in practice are so crude and limited as to make that evaluation process a painfully frustrating one.
 

klingonadmiral

Field Marshal
49 Badges
Sep 15, 2014
2.918
4.512
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
The alternative titan weapon looks pretty good on paper,

Not sure about that, at least I use the Perdition Beam mainly as a tool to force engagements, as with a carrier computer on the titan they have stupidly long range.

The archaeotech titan gun has half the range, so it's pointless for that purpose.

A weapon I find interesting is the sidegrade to the Gigacannon. Same base stats as that gun, but instead of +50% shield damage and -25% armor damage they have +150% shield damage, -75% armor damage and +25% hull damage. This weapon basically screams "I kill Unbidden" to me.
 

Thiend

Captain
45 Badges
Mar 23, 2022
499
1.272
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Impire
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • War of the Roses
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
I would say this isnt even a Stellaris problem. And looking at Total War: Warhammer i would even go so far and say this isnt even a Paradox problem but an overall problem in strategy games.
As someone who plays and loves those games, you're definitely correct. Interpreting what different stats mean just by looking at them is effectively impossible.
 

Starfire Breeze

First Lieutenant
2 Badges
Oct 8, 2022
256
273
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
Never played Total War: Warhammer, so I can't speak to it. Certainly, though, a number of prior 4X games I'd play did pay attention to consistency for modifiers to their mechanics, so while that's not necessarily easy to retroactively clean up all the accumulated problems over many years on an existing codebase, it's certainly possible to be diligent about it.

Inspecting how the nano missiles look, here's with a Torpedo Cruiser (modification of my standard design that has 3 nano missiles and 3 phase disruptors instead of the usual 6 phase disruptors), versus the Enigmatic Fortress. Like any Leviathan, since 3.6+ it's an immediate instantaneous push-over once you have Torpedo Cruisers, so it's hardly a lengthy engagement (about the time to stroll across the solar system), but so far, point to the nano missiles first:
1679017025479.png
If the combat report is to be believed (who knows how much of it is buggy beyond the dead ships section), the Enigmatic Fortress only managed to shoot down 30 objects with its PD.

I'll have to see how that continues to play out in some other engagement scenarios.

Edit: More data. Here, I had to use Jump Drive to (barely) make it back to intercept a Marauder revenge fleet from causing some problems. This engagement was fought with the Jump Drive penalty active. I have 1 level more repeatables researched for energy than explosive (generally speaking), nano-missiles came out ahead by a bit again. Marauders of course have no PD; and note that as they are mostly hull, they aren't really the best use case for penetrating weapons.
1679020960905.png
Another engagement, this against an enemy fleet that actually had PD. Disruptors fared better than the nano-missiles. Though I had 5 fleets with 100 total PD destroyers amongst them, the enemy (which also had some nano-missiles) was still managing some nano-missile hits.
1679024939569.png
One more, much larger engagement; 5 of my fleets against 3 enemy fleets. Disruptors did better, though the combat report claims the enemy only shot down a few tens of objects with their PD.
1679025317209.png
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:

blahmaster6k

Bob Semple Tanker
38 Badges
Feb 8, 2018
2.263
6.211
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Not sure about that, at least I use the Perdition Beam mainly as a tool to force engagements, as with a carrier computer on the titan they have stupidly long range.
For that I agree. Though for DPS the new one is probably a very strong option for high difficulties/crises, there isn't much need to cheese engagement range against the AI most of the time.
The archaeotech titan gun has half the range, so it's pointless for that purpose.

A weapon I find interesting is the sidegrade to the Gigacannon. Same base stats as that gun, but instead of +50% shield damage and -25% armor damage they have +150% shield damage, -75% armor damage and +25% hull damage. This weapon basically screams "I kill Unbidden" to me.
The only problem with that is that the Focused Arc Emitter is also the "I kill Unbidden" X slot weapon. So much of the Unbidden's total HP is the shields that penetration is just better than shield damage against them unless the archaeotech weapon (forgot the name) just has massively more DPS than the FAE.

It's basically an X slot autocannon, which isn't particularly useful when shields are usually not the main defensive layer.
 

Starfire Breeze

First Lieutenant
2 Badges
Oct 8, 2022
256
273
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
Updated my earlier post with a few more data examples. Versus actual AI empire fleets, the disruptors actually seem to be doing quite a bit better than nano-missiles.

I'm not really sure why, but then I'm also not sure how much we can trust the various parts of the combat report, which *claims* only a few things are being shot down by enemy PD, but if that was so, why are the nano missiles doing much worse against enemy fleets with a number of destroyers? All rather unclear, alas.
 

klingonadmiral

Field Marshal
49 Badges
Sep 15, 2014
2.918
4.512
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
So much of the Unbidden's total HP is the shields that penetration is just better than shield damage against them unless the archaeotech weapon (forgot the name) just has massively more DPS than the FAE.

FAE (before repeatables) does 83.76 DPS. The Unbidden have a ratio of ~3 shield HP per 1 hull HP. So we can multiply the FAEs DPS by 3 and arrive at 251.28 DPS.

The Ancient Saturator Artillery (ASA) does 115.78 DPS. It thus does 289.45 DPS against the Unbidden's shields and 144.73 DPS against their hull. With the shield:hull ratio of 3.6:1 the effective DPS is thus (289.45 x 3 + 144.73)/4 , which arrived at 253.27 DPS against the Unbidden weighted by their defensive profile.

With 75% accuracy against the FAEs 100%. Okay yeah, those guns ain't it.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

HFY

Field Marshal
28 Badges
May 15, 2016
8.550
19.946
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Ancient Space
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines
Never played Total War: Warhammer, so I can't speak to it. Certainly, though, a number of prior 4X games I'd play did pay attention to consistency for modifiers to their mechanics, so while that's not necessarily easy to retroactively clean up all the accumulated problems over many years on an existing codebase, it's certainly possible to be diligent about it.

Inspecting how the nano missiles look, here's with a Torpedo Cruiser (modification of my standard design that has 3 nano missiles and 3 phase disruptors instead of the usual 6 phase disruptors), versus the Enigmatic Fortress. Like any Leviathan, since 3.6+ it's an immediate instantaneous push-over once you have Torpedo Cruisers, so it's hardly a lengthy engagement (about the time to stroll across the solar system), but so far, point to the nano missiles first:
If the combat report is to be believed (who knows how much of it is buggy beyond the dead ships section), the Enigmatic Fortress only managed to shoot down 30 objects with its PD.

I'll have to see how that continues to play out in some other engagement scenarios.

Edit: More data. Here, I had to use Jump Drive to (barely) make it back to intercept a Marauder revenge fleet from causing some problems. This engagement was fought with the Jump Drive penalty active. I have 1 level more repeatables researched for energy than explosive (generally speaking), nano-missiles came out ahead by a bit again. Marauders of course have no PD; and note that as they are mostly hull, they aren't really the best use case for penetrating weapons.
Another engagement, this against an enemy fleet that actually had PD. Disruptors fared better than the nano-missiles. Though I had 5 fleets with 100 total PD destroyers amongst them, the enemy (which also had some nano-missiles) was still managing some nano-missile hits.
One more, much larger engagement; 5 of my fleets against 3 enemy fleets. Disruptors did better, though the combat report claims the enemy only shot down a few tens of objects with their PD.

Are space torpedoes effectiveness % reported before applying their hull-scaling to damage?

Because 100% effective should only apply to Corvettes, everything else should have some +% applied.
 

Starfire Breeze

First Lieutenant
2 Badges
Oct 8, 2022
256
273
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Necroids
Are space torpedoes effectiveness % reported before applying their hull-scaling to damage?

Because 100% effective should only apply to Corvettes, everything else should have some +% applied.
Well, I think that the damage done reported in the combat report is the scaled damage done, i.e. it is an absolute value. Otherwise, seeing things like 70000 damage done to a Leviathan from torpedoes that immediately wipes out the Leviathan would probably not happen, but that is what the combat report shows in those cases. But maybe you meant something else for "effectiveness %"?
 

HFY

Field Marshal
28 Badges
May 15, 2016
8.550
19.946
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Ancient Space
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines
Well, I think that the damage done reported in the combat report is the scaled damage done, i.e. it is an absolute value. Otherwise, seeing things like 70000 damage done to a Leviathan from torpedoes that immediately wipes out the Leviathan would probably not happen, but that is what the combat report shows in those cases. But maybe you meant something else for "effectiveness %"?

"100% efficient" would be the specific wording.

Hull-scaled damage should be reported as more than 100% efficient since it's scaled up by hull size.