Compilation of Balance Issues

[The Founder]

Projekt agony field being a full action means it deals less damage than the normal attack(same range), unless it hits 3 or more targets

That is pretty much how all AoE works. If you hit less then 2-3 targets, it is not worth it. And even then, that damage is very unlikely to actually kill any of those targets.
Debuffs - including Stagger - is how they work.

just without turning enemies into Indentured after combat, but are non-well-built, non-energy-efficient assembled Indentured what we need late game?

If they are poorly modded, just change the mods. The cost of existing mods is substracted from the new setup.
But more likely then not, you get something worth keeping and even deploying across all your Syndicate Indentured. I once got the Phase Walk Mod by accidentally taking the right unit with the Collars. So now all my indentured can walk through obstacles and are 20% harder to hit.

I also have no idea what you mean with "non-energy-efficient assembled"? You mean without the Assembly line Energy Sector Building? Upkeep can not be reduced by more then 50%. And Indentured Contracts already does 50%. And if you field any relevant number of indentured units, you want that Doctrine. So additional reductions will mean nothing.

And at worst, you could always just disband the unit.

 

[Ericridge]

I"ve had an game drag on long enough so i'm about to put eight vanguard walkers or so supported by lots of troopers + pugs to the test and they're currently enroute to start a war against an assembly ai on hard. Gonna be evaluating how well the vanguard walkers do in supporting role compared to the vanguard laser tanks. Might take me about a week because I don't have that much free time.

 

[MaitreBouh]

About the subjugator vs wraith tank. They don't have the same role IMO. Subjugator is a support more than an main combat unit, which the wraith tank is.

Subjugator is better IMO in a group of indentured than a wraith tank, but the wraith tank is better in itself or in a group of high quality units.

The comparison with mantra of control is not fair to the subjugator IMO, because it's not as good as the controle collar (which has a debuff on failure, and a strong one) and because getting a free unit at the end of combat is invaluable. And also because mantra of controle is at the end of the psionic weapon tree, which is irrelevant to a support for an army with shock weapons.

When you researched shock weapons for your indentured and use indentured armies supported by more powerful units, the psionic tree becomes expensive. And the subjugator doesn't need it like the wraith tank.

Finally, resurrect, even only for an indentured, is invaluable. With a convert ability on top. I mean, balance in AoW3 revolved for 3 years around killing the effectiveness of the conversion of units.

Indeed the 24mp is a tough drawback, but floating means it's not as bad, and I really feel like 32 speed would make him stupidly powerful. A fast, floating converting unit that revive his minions? Some units in AoW3 were deemed overpowered for a lot less than that.

 

[Elder Fogcrow]

fascinating how different we play syndicate: In my last game I researched the first arc weapon mod(which combines really nicely with the Indentureds repeating type attack), the syndicate accuracy+ flanking mod(thouse two I put on the Indentured) and then researched the psionic weapon tree up to mantra of life asap(the overseers cerebral override healing the damage it dealt, and some more right away, with a shield buff on top is priceless imo, the heal healing for more and also shielding is nice too). I even went with the military tradition leader background to get that one faster. Oh, and Mantra of control comes right after mantra of life, not at the end.

 

[MaitreBouh]

Mantra of controle is still tier IX research.

I prefer to go with shock research with syndicate because that's what use their main infantry, and because there are more defensive options there that syndicate lack (arc retaliation, arc impact), and the last arc mods that can go on cheap yet damaging units that you can resurrect or recruit on field with subjugators are stupidly powerful.

I don't feel like the control collar short range on a slow unit is a problem because it complete the arsenal of the syndicate rather focused on medium to long range. Anything that comes close and would be a threat is neutralized in one ability and gives you a new unit. And the disable on failure is a failsafe.

Now obviously the subjugator is not a unit that makes a whole strategy by itself. Exactly like the overseer is not the center of a strategy, it's support that will make indentured shine. That's the problem people have with the subjugator I guess: you can't build around it like the wraith tank, it doesn't heal like the overseer and he has no buff ability to profit from the mantra, and it's slow on top.

But on the other hand it allows you profit fully from the arc damage tree by supporting and recruiting the units that use it, and this way it transition well to the zenith that will ultimately support the whole army of indentured and profit from the arc mods.

 

[Ferrus Animus]

Anyway, in the past, I have said that regen mods are a bit too much, and I still think so. That synthesis tactical op should imho just be 10% hp regen over 2 or 3 turns.

That'S what the TacOP does. 10% for 2 turns.

and I also suggest enabling the "cerebral amplifier" mod for Subjugators, so they can better support Indentured armies.

IMO a lot of the mods fitting only one unit need a reevaluation for similar units, heroes and ST units

 

[The Founder]

fascinating how different we play syndicate: In my last game I researched the first arc weapon mod(which combines really nicely with the Indentureds repeating type attack), the syndicate accuracy+ flanking mod(thouse two I put on the Indentured) and then researched the psionic weapon tree up to mantra of life asap(the overseers cerebral override healing the damage it dealt, and some more right away, with a shield buff on top is priceless imo, the heal healing for more and also shielding is nice too). I even went with the military tradition leader background to get that one faster. Oh, and Mantra of control comes right after mantra of life, not at the end.

Even within a "Indentured Heavy Playstyle", there still is variation.

He picks a more offensive style, based around disabling the enemies (temporary via Stun/Stagger or permanently via death).
You pick a more defensive one, with heals and buffs to keep your indentured alive.

IMO a lot of the mods fitting only one unit need a reevaluation for similar units, heroes and ST units

Modding/Patching wise it would be pretty easy to change stuff from "specific unit" to "unit with the right ability".
So this is really only a balance question.

 

[PhoenixG]

I just found something that might be OP.

An assembly hero/commander with assimilate ability and lighting blade as primary weapon. Or just a melee arc weapon with the mod "arc extension module".
For every jump it makes you heal an extra 3 hp due assimilate. If your enemies a close enough and you can pull three hits you could heal yourself 27 hp each turn. (54 hp before the nerf)

 

[TomRon]

I just found something that might be OP.

An assembly hero/commander with assimilate ability and lighting blade as primary weapon. Or just a melee arc weapon with the mod "arc extension module".
For every jump it makes you heal an extra 3 hp due assimilate. If your enemies a close enough and you can pull three hits you could heal yourself 27 hp each turn. (54 hp before the nerf)

While good and definitely a fun build, Arc extension is some ways into the tree, and 27hp is obtainable through other means as well. I wouldn't call it OP (but before the nerf...yeah maybe). Nice find!

 

[MaitreBouh]

I just found something that might be OP.

An assembly hero/commander with assimilate ability and lighting blade as primary weapon. Or just a melee arc weapon with the mod "arc extension module".
For every jump it makes you heal an extra 3 hp due assimilate. If your enemies a close enough and you can pull three hits you could heal yourself 27 hp each turn. (54 hp before the nerf)

Something, to be OP, must be a lot more than odly powerful. It must have a significant impact on the strategic balance of the game, or make too many other options irrelevant.

 

[Elgareth]

I just found something that might be OP.

An assembly hero/commander with assimilate ability and lighting blade as primary weapon. Or just a melee arc weapon with the mod "arc extension module".
For every jump it makes you heal an extra 3 hp due assimilate. If your enemies a close enough and you can pull three hits you could heal yourself 27 hp each turn. (54 hp before the nerf)

The "Problem" for me in this case would be that it just doesn't make sense from a Logical standpoint. Why should a lightning jump somehow grant you materials from the enemy?
I wouldn't say it's that OP though, when you are near 3 enemies with your hero, in melee, chances are he can be focused down in one turn anyway.

 

[The Founder]

The "Problem" for me in this case would be that it just doesn't make sense from a Logical standpoint. Why should a lightning jump somehow grant you materials from the enemy?
I wouldn't say it's that OP though, when you are near 3 enemies with your hero, in melee, chances are he can be focused down in one turn anyway.

Assembly heroes are tough in melee. They got innate Stagger resistance. And that attack should stagger enemies too. Plus the Melee Lifesteal.

Assembly heroes are the one Species I always feel confident equipping for melee. Because Assimilate + Stagger Resistance is such a good combination.

 

[TomRon]

Assembly heroes are tough in melee. They got innate Stagger resistance. And that attack should stagger enemies too. Plus the Melee Lifesteal.

Assembly heroes are the one Species I always feel confident equipping for melee. Because Assimilate + Stagger Resistance is such a good combination.

Yup. And Kir'ko. The rest...not so much.

 

[MaitreBouh]

Yup. And Kir'ko. The rest...not so much.

Dvar are quite very tough too.

 

[TomRon]

Dvar are quite very tough too.

I suppose every faction can have viable melee heroes if you pick the right secret tech to increase mobility and survivability.

 

[The Founder]

Yup. And Kir'ko. The rest...not so much.

Dvar are quite very tough too.

Dvar got Stagger Immunity, but no heal or offense skill. Plus that total lack of Cleanse abilities in their racial units.
Kir'Ko get the damage boost, not the important stagger resistance.
Vangaurd at least can mod stagger resistance.

As every melee attack and most shortrange do at least High Impact Stagger, that resistance is fundamental to actually use overwatch and defense mode.

I suppose every faction can have viable melee heroes if you pick the right secret tech to increase mobility and survivability.

Not really. People like Syndicate? They get no usefull skills for melee. And anything from secret tech Syndicate gets, the others get from ST on top of their baseline.
And the Escape Module is currently bugged and removes all "once per battle" charges. I already reported that, but a fix did not make it into 1.006.

Syndicate do have the combined Farsight/Agile Overwatch skill, so for repeating or full action attacks they are ideal even while advancing. Still the lack of stagger resistance can knock them out of Overwatch.
Someone did claim agile overwatch works on Melee overwatch, but I had no chance to test it yet.

So there is a clear bias for/against melee Heroes in the races.

 

[TomRon]

Bias yes, but still doable for all. Stagger resistance is absolutely mandatory, but available early in many tech trees, to the point you only need to dip a little into a captured or bought city to get it.

I heard about the Agile Overwatch too, but I've never seen it actually happen. Can anyone confirm or deny that one in Melee?

 

[the_noble_wolf]

The Zenith doesent feel like I'm building an all powerful unit tbh. I agree

 

[Garresh]

Just wanted to say I appreciate all the feedback. I haven't done any updating because there hasn't been any strong consensus on things that need to be added or changed. Still a valuable thread.

 

[TomRon]

Having played a couple of more games I'm having a hard time finding more things that I find seriously unbalanced. The one thing I WOULD add to this Original post is the Deaths Gaze, it's the single most OP thing in the entire game and no other items, mods or units come even close. It's pretty much an "I win" button.