Compilation of Balance Issues

[MaitreBouh]

For units and mods, when you exclude the possibly over or under powered ones there are not many left.

The engulfer I talked about already, the ramjet is a counter to it IMO, and overwatch should give them troubles too.

The harbinger I don't really understand what the problem would be. It's a strong buffer, but for a T4 I'd say it's normal. Why would it be so imbalanced? There the discussion must explore the strategic context IMO. Just saying that another T4 will not bring as much is not relevant otherwise.

Which leads to the drone carrier and the earth crusher. The main problem with these two seems to be that they don't support their army the same way other t4 do. IMO it's a good thing first, and second I think they do support their own armies well.

Generally speaking, why would a unit that feel too strong would be a problem? It only becomes a problem if it makes too many other units irrelevant (we're talking diversity balance here) AND there is no other strategy that uses the competing units.

Here we have the examples of the carrier that compete with the laser tank, the subjugator vs overseer or wraithtank , the foreman vs another trencher. But these considerations are heavily impacted by playstyle and personal beliefs and tastes. Also, mods will dramatically change the context, and so will the secret tech and the opponents.

 

[The Founder]

On the other hand if sc:bw was an sp game there wouldn't be such case at all.

Starcraft 2 actually has a different Single Player, Co-OP and MP balance.

There already is Mantra of Control in the Psi weapon tree that perma-controls Units, unless I misunderstand the question, and the Deployable Malware Daemon from Synth does so as well I think.

Just because it does not mention a limit for control, does not mean there is none.
"Till end of battle" is the default duration for all Mind Control in Planetfall. Unless a exception is noted, asume it the unit will despawn after battle.

What I find interesting here is that the ramjet is a direct counter to the engulfer. The ramjet negates every advantage of the engulfer: melee bypass the swarm shield, dvar melee mod bypass the armor, or the rocket murder packs of enemies, aerial melee overwatch is an advantage, and it comes sooner than the engulfer.

I do not view AoE as a counter to swarm shield. I view Swarm shield as a counter to AoE.

Generally it is really hard to find cover that is not withing 2 hexes of an ally. AoE is not really avoidable.
If you can not avoid AoE, you can at least mitigate it: The swarm shield allows you to park 2 units next to each other to benefit from swarm shields, leaving 1 hex gap to any other formation of 1-2 units. There is a lot of "cover for 2".
So no enemy can hit more then 2 units. And those units he does hit, will have their Swarm shield to negate some of the damage.

The harbinger I don't really understand what the problem would be. It's a strong buffer, but for a T4 I'd say it's normal. Why would it be so imbalanced? There the discussion must explore the strategic context IMO. Just saying that another T4 will not bring as much is not relevant otherwise.

It is the +2 Range that is the important part. Range can not be overestimated!
A sniper or artilelry is moved from 9 to 11.
Range 7 turns into Sniper Range.
Grenades are moved from 3 to 5.

Especially consider that usually overwatch range is 2 tiles shorter then attack range. So a enemy normally has a range advantage even agaisnt overwatch. But not with this one!
That is two tiles earlier the enemy has to look for cover and enter defense mode.
Two tiles earlier the enemy is close enough for your full actions to hit him.

 

[orangelex44]

I haven't played enough Syndicate to truly say what's good or not, but from watching/talking to others and with the little I've played I don't think there are any units that are especially above/below their intended power levels. Syndicate units in general are a little weaker in tactical to make up for some really great strategic advantages (lots of floating, lots of invisibility, dirt cheap, etc.) - many of which don't matter much in SP but are really powerful in MP. I don't agree that they play similar to vanguard; even aside from their great strategic differences syndicate have access to melee and snipers, which vanguard don't, and in general syndicate focus more on expendable units backed up by glass cannons while vanguard try to be more survivable.

Once again, bikes don't belong on this list, they're totally fine. Initiates probably don't either; I think some of them lack racial flavor but they're not underpowered. Destroyers are also questionable for a similar reason; I don't know if they're actively weak so much as they just don't fit into the general Xeno gameplan and don't have a signature ability that makes them stand out. They also have some "middle child syndrome" where they're supposed to bridge the gap between a mobile/evasive T1 and a tanky T3.

Kir'ko are weird because in the MP I play, they're absolute trash because they can't consistently clear in auto. Their other units might be great, but they can't expand well enough for that to matter.

Dvar units are lackluster to make up for an absolutely insane economy. I wouldn't want to ask for changes to *anything* (even the obviously bad units like Foremen) for them without drastically changing how prospecting works.

In general, I wouldn't be trying to balance individual units as opposed to making sure every race has plausible reasons to *build* every unit.

Operations are slightly different; I think right now operations balance is all over the map. Not having any operations that last forever (other than unit summons that leave after the fight) is an obvious first step, but other than that there are a bunch of buff ops that are probably too expensive.

Mods are also interesting. Lots of people are saying regen is OP, but I'm not entirely sold; stagger resist is much better IMO.

 

[The Founder]

I don't agree that they play similar to vanguard; even aside from their great strategic differences syndicate have access to melee and snipers, which vanguard don't

Vanguard do have melee, in form of teh Valkyrie. It just comes later and is higher Tier.
And the Laser Tank operates like a Mechanical T3 Sniper, with a repeating attack.

 

[Calm]

At most I'd say online play is more sensitive to small imbalances, because human players are far quicker to exploit small advantages.

I buy that online play is more sensitive to small imbalances in the early game. The early game is simple---players have fewer choices, which means fewer tools w/which to counter, and fewer places to make mistakes.

Past that? No way. More choices in the mid/late game means you're going to have whatever tools you need to counter/prevent even the most OP things, and more choices also mean more opportunities for player mistakes, which means that any "imbalance" seen is more likely to be a result of those mistakes rather than an actual imbalance. In a game like Planetfall that revels in complexity this will pretty much always be true.

 

[P5552]

I don't know if I have mentioned it before, but I feel like gold-tier sites are too easy to take over. I just started a new game and managed to conquer Elysium Parks with two heroes and my starting party. I feel like enemies down there should be modded more aggresively, or even allowed to fight with more than 6 units (militia-style), because with how hard it is to get level 5 upgrade on a normal sector, I feel like conquering such site should at the very least require to bring a bunch of Tier III's with yourself to stand a chance. Not 3 troopers and a PUG.

 

[The Founder]

I don't know if I have mentioned it before, but I feel like gold-tier sites are too easy to take over. I just started a new game and managed to conquer Elysium Parks with two heroes and my starting party. I feel like enemies down there should be modded more aggresively, or even allowed to fight with more than 6 units (militia-style), because with how hard it is to get level 5 upgrade on a normal sector, I feel like conquering such site should at the very least require to bring a bunch of Tier III's with yourself to stand a chance. Not 3 troopers and a PUG.

The difficulty of the defenders/wildlife scales with number of turns. So this was really just you managing to get it early.

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Arguably balance is more important in singleplayer. In a multiplayer community, as long as a game has counter-play you can adapt to overpowered units or strategies by counter-playing it. The game is distorted from the intended design but still intact. But game AI does not understand the metagame and will always be vulnerable to spamming overpowered units. It leads to stale play and boredom, especially on the part of optimizer players.

For example, lets take Rock Paper Scissors. Say you score 1 point for every victory, unless you use Scissors to defeat Paper in which case you get 2 points. A Game AI chooses at random (SP), and thus players will always win over the long term simply by choosing Scissors every single time. This is the problem with imbalance in singleplayer. Between human players (PVP) , this would result in an odd metagame where you are expected to choose Scissors so they choose Rock. Except you know they will probably choose Rock to counter the obvious play of scissors, so you choose paper. And so on and so forth until someone gets into a land war in Asia. Even though scissors is inarguably OP, there is still valid gameplay to be had, and one could argue it is *more* interesting than default rock paper scissors.

Balance is only more important in MP when something is broken enough as to be effectively unbeatable, or the counter-play requires waaaay more skill or is otherwise impractical.

 

[P5552]

The difficulty of the defenders/wildlife scales with number of turns. So this was really just you managing to get it early.

Uhh, I really doubt it's the case. Last game I conquered such site around round ~70 and they had the same set of defenders. Maybe you're confusing it with neutral dwellings - I don't mean these, but the treasure sites you enter - the ones you classify into bronze, silver and gold, and allow you to place a unique building in your colony.

 

[The Founder]

Uhh, I really doubt it's the case. Last game I conquered such site around round ~70 and they had the same set of defenders. Maybe you're confusing it with neutral dwellings - I don't mean these, but the treasure sites you enter - the ones you classify into bronze, silver and gold, and allow you to place a unique building in your colony.

I am pretty sure those too gete upgrades.
The units themself seem to stay the same, but their mod status/level keeps inprooving.

 

[orangelex44]

Vanguard do have melee, in form of teh Valkyrie. It just comes later and is higher Tier.
And the Laser Tank operates like a Mechanical T3 Sniper, with a repeating attack.

Coming later is a massive deal though! Having to tech into stuff has a drastic impact on how often you actually see it in MP. Valkyries are also summons, instead of easily buildable/massable Enforcers. While the tank does have a long-range attack it doesn't really fit the same battlefield role as snipers do, and an army with, say, 4 Guild Assassins plus chaff will not approach fights the same way 4 Laser Tanks + chaff would.

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I am not sure there is really a sniper role, since the sniper units all play pretty differently. Assembly is CC, Syndicate is Overwatch, Kir'ko is stacking dodge like a bastard

 

[The Founder]

I am not sure there is really a sniper role, since the sniper units all play pretty differently. Assembly is CC, Syndicate is Overwatch, Kir'ko is stacking dodge like a bastard

All snipers are about shooting stuff at range 9. To force the enemy to have to come to you, rather then you having to go to him.
Even if you went most of the way to him, it still helps if he has to come the rest of the way. It is the difference between you having 2-3 Actions points to attack and them possibly having no cover, vs you have 1-2 and no cover.

The KirKo got very poor range, to melee focus on their army. The Kirko Sniper has to move up with the units advancing. Agile Overwatch really helps here. As does the Shourd Step, to get even more defenses for the advancing melee.

Stuff like the the CC on the Assembly Sniper is nice, but not the core.

 

[Pappus]

Kir'ko Hiddens role is more buffer than it is sniper. He holds the most applicable psi buff other than the Harringer with its +2 rangebuff.

 

[Arilou]

Vanguard do have melee, in form of teh Valkyrie. It just comes later and is higher Tier.

The Valkyrie doesen't just come fairly late and is higher tier, but it's also operation-only, this means it can't be modded. It still has some use because it's expendable/deployable, but it's not really a replacement for a baseline melee unit. (the Dvar sapper and Kir'ko Abyssian have the same issues, though those can at least be duplicated by mounting heroes on them)

 

[The Founder]

the Dvar sapper and Kir'ko Abyssian have the same issues, though those can at least be duplicated by mounting heroes on them

Actually the Valkyrie can be duplicated with heroes even easier.
Laser Sword is a starting weapon and Jetpack Mod is unlocked by the Valkyrie tech. Plus all those way better melee weapons you can find.

While the Valkyrie (and thier hero replacement) are weak, I do not see them a bit worse off then the Enforcer.
Enforcer is a T2 Melee unit, without Stagger Resistance or Buff Options. Spacer Psychos with Slave Collar are propably a better melee option.
So the two Factions are still pretty even as far as Melee options go.

 

[Arilou]

Actually the Valkyrie can be duplicated with heroes even easier.
Laser Sword is a starting weapon and Jetpack Mod is unlocked by the Valkyrie tech. Plus all those way better melee weapons you can find.

While the Valkyrie (and thier hero replacement) are weak, I do not see them a bit worse off then the Enforcer.
Enforcer is a T2 Melee unit, without Stagger Resistance or Buff Options. Spacer Psychos with Slave Collar are propably a better melee option.
So the two Factions are still pretty even as far as Melee options go.

I've found the Enforcerer to be quite decent, the shield bubble can make a big difference early on, and psionic melee is not to be sneezed at under any circumstances. (since they ignore both armour and shields) and at least it can be modded.

 

[The Founder]

I've found the Enforcerer to be quite decent, the shield bubble can make a big difference early on, and psionic melee is not to be sneezed at under any circumstances. (since they ignore both armour and shields) and at least it can be modded.

The issue with all Shield bubbles is that they are primary AoE targets. And as it is the defense mode, it breaks on Stagger - wich nearly every AoE and many ranged attacks have.
And on the damage front, I prefer my enemy not being killed by my melee. Unless they can stagger away my melee overwatch or the enemy has bows, they will act as cover towards enemies and will take a free hit when they attack me.

The mirrage shield at least affects accuracy, attacks need to target air and the unit is stagger resistant/hard to hit.
Same about the Fallout Shields of the Promethean Aegis Tank.
And the Swarm Shield is at least a passive.

 

[Promethian]

The problem with Enforcer is hes in an odd position. Hes tier 2 which means he doesn't have great defenses. He doesn't have a special trick to keep him alive like Echo Walker or Pustule. Hes not disposable like Plasmoids. He doesn't have a good way to engage or the speed to easily engage like Lancers. However he has the ability to surpass them all later on. The Syndicate evasive mod is practically made for him. Plus he can use the Psy weapons mods. Give him a defensive mod from your secret tech and he'll bully your enemies quite effectively. Synthesis works great. In a previous game I modded up some Enforcers with Syndicate Evade, TNI and Psy-fish hallucinate mod. In battle I gave them the long term heal from the Network Uplink and they did good work. Not elite so rather easy to make and the only deep tech was TNI.

 

[Elder Fogcrow]

Imo the best way to evaluate if the Subjugator is in a good spot is to compare it to the wraith tank, since they´ve got the same tier, range and damage type, which makes them more or less compete for the same spot in the production queue and army.
The tank got 1 more armor, 2 more damage per shot, defense mode:shields up vs basic defense mode, and more movement points(which is quite the big deal, because since both have a repeating type main attack, it often means one more shot after moving a little to get into range)... on the other hand its a large target, meaning easier to hit.
Still it looks like the tank got quite the edge...can the Subjugators abilities make up for that? Most of the time, my impression is no. Projekt agony field being a full action means it deals less damage than the normal attack(same range), unless it hits 3 or more targets, nice vector for debuffs though, if theres a suitable enemy unit cluster within range, and debuffing mods are equipped(mantra of clarity, illusion, the branded f.e.) deploy mind control collars ...another full action, meaning with 24mp he can´t move a single hex to get into position, also I feel tempted to use mantra of control on both subjugator and tank for the damage and accuracy boost, giving the tank a very similar ability(just without turning enemies into Indentured after combat, but are non-well-built, non-energy-efficient assembled Indentured what we need late game?) the reanimation ability is awsome, if an indentured, esp a t2 one, dies, but due to the low mp the subjugator can´t keep up with the stacks he could otherwise support...thanks to floating he just slows them down by one hex per turn, but still...
yes, adding some movement points would help, and I also suggest enabling the "cerebral amplifier" mod for Subjugators, so they can better support Indentured armies.

I also suggest to add Acrimonious, the single action, single shot weapon from the Xenoplague secret tech, to the list of underpowered things.