Compilation of Balance Issues

[Ferrus Animus]

The unit has detection. Wich is something I really value having in any stack.
If you do manage to kill a enemy while it is "Filled with Despair", it turns into a new unit. The Echo of Despair is like the Assembly drones, just way more numerous. They can also be buffed to always return as Echo of Despair themself.

The initiate does come with a Racial Variant for everyone, so that muddies up the comparision:
Amazons loose the Heal but add a Entangle on Devour Hope
Assembly ones Return as Echo of Despair under Guarantee
Dvar is Baseline. But compare to the Bullwark, it is non-mechanical. Wich makes keeping Bio a lot easier
Kirko get a +10% damage and swarmshield. Also a pretty good T2 ranged unit, a weakness of theirs. Ranged attacks do allow you getting way more out of the swarm shield.
Syndicate get +1 Damage (+5 max) per Indentured in the battle*. And of course Syndicate can make other species Initiates into Indentureds, to give their Malictors a buff instead
Vanguard is baseline, not adding anything really.

*There is no need to have all those 5+ Indentured in the same army. Quite often armies will fight together, pooling their battlefield effects and unit counts. 3 Armies with 1 Autonom Monitor each can get you all 3 Stacks of Networked. And if there is any race that favors masses, it is the Syndicate. -33% Production and -50% Upkeep cost? Spam those indentured!
You can have stacks without a hero too.

Kirko can definitely use them en-masse. The swarm shield really helps with that - just let them operate in teams of 2. Most others can benefit from having 1-2 mixed into every stack, until you go to Malictor instead.
With Syndicate being able to recycle them as indentured if taken from other species.

As for who to use it against:
- Obviously the Mindless things are pretty immune to their debuffs/abilities.
- Quickly followed by Morale Penalty resisstant ones (Xenoplague, Celestian, Indentured units, Voidtech Mechanicals). Those ones still can be host to echos, but they do not take the Morale effects.
- Synthesis has nothing mindless (not even the machines!), but the Moral penalty resistance mod later. But the non-mechanical nature of the units means you can avoid the powerfull Synthesis Offense.
- Of course even vulnerable machiens still got Psionic Resist 2
- Promethean lacks a Psionic cleanse
- Dvar are armor heavy and have no cleanse. So right up there in the targets.
- Assembly all Cyborgs and heavy armor, but a decent cleanse

You misunderstand me.
I agree that Initates are a good unit. My point is that they aren't outstanding in any way, which is their detriment.
Detector is good, but each faction has an early detector mod.
Hatching an Echo of Despair is useful, but using Devour Hope to spawn a unit (that starts with no actions) and to heal are different utiilities.

And for the price of a Tier 1 tech, a Tier 3 tech, and special recruitment building they face stiff competition. My point is that Initiates are a decent unit, but each faction already has something that fills most of their role already.
Amazons have the Arborean Sentinel, which brings similar damage, similar entangle and uses their inherent weapon type.
Assembly get the electrocutioner, again similar damage, no research required and uses their inherent weapon type.
Dvar have the Bulwark, which brings similar damage, a more powerful disable, agile overwatch and requires no research and uses their inherent weapon type.
Kirko have the Transcendent, which has 1 point more damage (instead of the 10%=0.7 points the Kirko Initiate gets as racial bonus), requires no research and brings a heal, transsfer pain, regen and strategic mak healing.
Syndicate already have very cheap indentured as a base ranged unit, but their Initiate can at least get a significant damage boost in their armies, giving it a way to stand out.
And Vanguard have the Trooper, which is cheaper, requires no research and uses their inherent weapon type.

Initiates are good, but they don't change your options like getting a dedicated melee unit like the Echo Walker for some factions, or a dedicated anti-mechanical unit like the Hacker.

My point is that Initiates don't stand out. They bring little new to any line up, even though they add versatility, and that makes them kinda eh in their role. The fact that the Autocomabat AI doesn't use them too well doesn't help either.

 

[orangelex44]

Bikes are fine. They start with 4 armor, which is nuts on a T2 unit. Sure, they die to flanks, but most units die to flanks. The AOE stagger laser attack is a fantastic mod chassis, and 40 move is 40 move.

Initiates are also fine. They're not amazing DPS (well, except for Syndicate), but psi is just generally good, broken mind is a nice inflict, and freespawn units are always good. Races that don't have native psi access really like having a few around, even if you don't want three stacks of them. If I had a complaint, it would be part of a general note that there's no way to increase the strength of inflicts to more consistently affect higher-tier units in the mid- and late-game (notable exception for Dimensional Instability). Psynumbra also has other Good Things; better-than-average mods (past Mark, anyway), great tactical ops, Whispers, Malictors. And, as someone else already said, most Initiates also have good sidegrades.

Destroyers do seem a little weak when compared to the other Xeno units. Or perhaps "lackluster" is a better word; they don't have a clear niche other than "run at enemy and hope to survive for further evolution". I'd build Pustules if I could; I don't think I'd build Destroyers.

The Foreman is bad. Incentivize is alright, but an 8 damage 4 range single attack is pretty comical, even if it's nominally an AOE stagger. The melee is worse, because the AI misuses the unit and loses it in auto. Dvar in general have a weird power curve, the Trencher and Bulwark are fantastic but then you have a lot of not-great until... Rocket Artillery, probably? Their lackluster units are carried by their (almost assuredly overpowered) economy, and Trenchers are probably the best single unit in the game for auto-clears.

I won't really comment on the rest, other than to say that Syndicate seems alright overall, Kir'ko struggles in auto have so far outweighed any strengths of individual units, and that I have never seen a T4 of any kind in the MP games I play (1v1, small map, simultaneous turns).

 

[The Founder]

Hatching an Echo of Despair is useful, but using Devour Hope to spawn a unit (that starts with no actions) and to heal are different utiilities.

Those are not inherently different utilities. Few things can keep you alive as well, as not getting hit. Healing is fixing having already taken damage. Killing enemies or directing their attacks to other places, is the best way to avoid getting hit.
And that extra melee/suicide unit that hatches without actions and propably cover to the enemy? If they ignore it, they get melee staggered/overwatched by it. Or staggered/blown and filled with Despair by it. The enemy ignores it at it's own peril.

Kirko have the Transcendent, which has 1 point more damage (instead of the 10%=0.7 points the Kirko Initiate gets as racial bonus), requires no research and brings a heal, transsfer pain, regen and strategic mak healing.

There is no damage difference (the +10% makes it 8 Damage for the Initiate), the Initiate does broken mind. And the active healing option is about equal (25 any unit vs 20 self-healing).
Of course the Transcendent still has regeneration. But that only indicates that the Transcendant might be too powerfull as a combat unit.

I am pretty sure regen is only supposed to help with Absorb pain. Not make it a decent combat unit on top of it. Reducing the damage and/or range on teh transcendent should fix that. Propably more the damage, as range might get the AI to move them to close to enemies.

 

[TomRon]

I know the topic is mainly about units, but since mods have been discussed as well I figured I might be allowed to add a mechanic as OP?

Heroes changing gear/mods. If you get a powerful item, you can let several heroes use it in the same turn for different battles. You can throw mods around the same way. I usually don't do it (actually, I DID use it on the second Syndicate map with the Deaths Gaze when I was already winning and I was just waiting for the turns to pass until DD weapon win).

Fix? Give heroes the same downtime of 1 turn when changing equipment and/or mods that units have. And if possible, make it so that the equipment the hero was using isn't available to the other heroes until next turn, effectively giving gear swapping between heroes a 2 turn cooldown.

 

[MaitreBouh]

Wow that's a lot of things to say. Something is a bit confusing already : context matters a lot when you talk about unit balance, so when I see that some T4 units or advanced mods are OP or UP I wonder how you play, because I have a hard time reaching a point in the game where I'll have more than one T4 unit.

First, syndicate:
The subjugator: I have trouble to understand how someone can find it bad. His attacks are powerful, he has a mind control, and a resurrect ability for indentured. He is not the most durable, but he is a lot more than overseers. He is a primary target a lot more than an overseer IMO, a unit the enemy will plan it's tactic around in a fight a lot more than for overseers.

Then the zenith. I see no problem with this unit. I'd want one in each army if it wasn't so expensive. The anthem is insane, the heal is awesome, the main gun is powerful enough, shock damage is a good element with good mods, and the artillery shot, albeit on a long cooldown, does it's job perfectly. Resilience is good too, although you obviously shouldn't send such a unit in the middle of an enemy army, that's the job of the wraith tank. I like how it works well with absolutely all units of the syndicate. I can't compare it to other t4, and I think it would be a mistake anyway. These units are meant to work with the roster of their race, not alone in an army of t4 units.

Dvar: I think dvar suffer a lot from having a playstyle that's not obvious. They are wonderfully crafted though I think. I hadn't the opportunity to test all of their units, but the ones I did were all awesome. The trencher is the staple of their army, and this everyone can see it. But the foreman is a staple to support them for several reasons: first is the army heal, a strategic efficiency booster like few others, because it allows to keep fighting turn after turn. The tactical heal and encouragement are it's main function, what's make it an excellent support. Then the concussive melee is a deterrent to any enemy melee unit. And finally the mortar is a cover destroyer and a stagger on aoe. Again a deterent to any enemy that would come close. This unit is a toolbox like no other in game. But it's definitely not a fighting unit.

The ramjet is awesome too. At first one of the scariest dvar unit I faced. It's rockets are missiles on unit you can research extremely quick, combined with it's speed an army of those are a bomber run. And then their melee attack is deadly, no less, and the only racial unit that can melee overwatch on air units. I found the melee attack of the ramjet to be one of the most powerful attack from T2 air units, unless you stack loads of mods on the others. Usually air attacks are very inaccurate and low damage. This one combine with the first melee mod of the dvar makes the ramjet very deadly. But it follows the dvar doctrine: full melee assault. You shouldn't sent it alone in the enemy army. You should send it with your trenchers who just built trenches next to their enemies. You should ram the enemies from behind to take them out of cover and direct contact with your trenchers.

The earthcrusher then. To me it's ability to crush the land is misunderstood. It's not an ability to raid the enemy. It's an ability to siege him. You waste his territory to force him to attack your army. This way you don't need to fight the garrisons withe armies on top. And if the enemy don't take the fight, you'll turn it's land into waste and crush his economy. It's one of the few siege weapons in the game, along with some operations. In tactical combat it's kind of an artillery and an excavator tank combine. It's gun is deadly. It will murder any melee coming near him. And it can tractor beam the supports who hide behind. The gun is the main ability. The other ones are here for the assault that always come in the dvar doctrine.

Vanguard drone carrier: I love this unit. I couldn't use it much. Spawning waves of drones means that either the enemy outpower you so much it doesn't matter, or that he is on cooldown to kill you because you are going to win a war of attrition. The drones are easy to kill, but while you kill them you're not shooting the rest of the army. And if you ignore them they can be a deadly pain. Especially with the mods they can get.

Synthesis mods: there are quite some talks about how strong some Synthesis mods are. To me they are not that strong. They are actually required to give you at least this to justify the use of this secret tech. Because this tech is so much about shitting on vehicles, it's easy for it to be almost useless. When you face amazons or kir'ko, you'll be left with 3 mods and 2 operations in the whole tree. The total network integration will require a shitload of research to through two useless mods before giving you it's bonuses. And as a tier 2 mod it's expensive enough that modding all your armies with it is not always a possibility. The first two mods and operations are awesome, but after that your left with almost exclusively anti-vehicle and cyborg stuff. It's a great secret tech, but polarized to be either supportive at low cost or shining against specific enemies.

 

[The Founder]

The subjugator: I have trouble to understand how someone can find it bad. His attacks are powerful, he has a mind control, and a resurrect ability for indentured. He is not the most durable, but he is a lot more than overseers. He is a primary target a lot more than an overseer IMO, a unit the enemy will plan it's tactic around in a fight a lot more than for overseers.

I guess the main issue with Fat Harkonnen Dude (we do all call him that, right?), is that he is only Speed 24. He and hte Zenith are the only Speed 24 units in the Syndicate army.

While many armies have a speed 24, the Syndicate might be the last capable of using it. Speed and stealth are the name of their game.

But the foreman is a staple to support them for several reasons: first is the army heal, a strategic efficiency booster like few others, because it allows to keep fighting turn after turn. The tactical heal and encouragement are it's main function, what's make it an excellent support.

As far as healers go, he is one of the weaker ones:
No extra strategic regeneration and can not heal itself.
Plus it has the Dvar issue of not having any cleanses.

Synthesis mods: there are quite some talks about how strong some Synthesis mods are. To me they are not that strong. They are actually required to give you at least this to justify the use of this secret tech. Because this tech is so much about shitting on vehicles, it's easy for it to be almost useless.

There is a common misconception here, one I did myself:
Synthesis offense is indeed only vs Cyborgs and Vehicles. But Synthesis was given a solid core of buff/support instead. Just those self-support abilities make it fully viable.

If you also can use the Offensive abilities, it becomes borderline OP.

 

[Zaskow]

Just those self-support abilities make it fully viable.

That 'self-support abilities' make Synth OP in multiplayer lol.

 

[The Founder]

That 'self-support abilities' make Synth OP in multiplayer lol.

Not really. The self-support abilities only makes it a viable Secret Tech.

Being also able to use the offense, that is what makes it OP. You basically got Anti-Mech/Cyborg stuff on top of a fully viable Secret Tech.

 

[Zaskow]

Not really. The self-support abilities only makes it a viable Secret Tech.

Man, try to play multiplayer and come again talking about how Synth is only 'viable Secret Tech'.

 

[The Founder]

Man, try to play multiplayer and come again talking about how Synth is only 'viable Secret Tech'.

SUPPORT abilities make it viable.
If you are ASLO able to use the offense, it becomes OP.

You need to selectively not read half my posts to get anywhere close to your missunderstanding.

 

[Arilou]

I've never found the Foreman bad. Yeah, he doesen't do much damage (though the AOE stagger+whatever rider effect you want from the explosives tree is nice) but the melee attack's concussion is absolutely amazing, it's one of the few native hardstuns on a T2 unit. the hand mortar could stand to have a bit more range or a bit more damage (not both!) but it's not essential.

 

[Elgareth]

I've never found the Foreman bad. Yeah, he doesen't do much damage (though the AOE stagger+whatever rider effect you want from the explosives tree is nice) but the melee attack's concussion is absolutely amazing, it's one of the few native hardstuns on a T2 unit. the hand mortar could stand to have a bit more range or a bit more damage (not both!) but it's not essential.

I'd much prefer 1 more range, that would make him SO much more useful in larger battles, where melee isn't an Option for squishier Units until the numbers are lowered.

As far as healers go, he is one of the weaker ones:
No extra strategic regeneration and can not heal itself.
Plus it has the Dvar issue of not having any cleanses.

He does have the biological strategic Regeneration though. He doesn't have the tactical Regeneration that fully heals if you meant that, but that's...expected, Kind of?
The heal could use a "Also cleanses all non-psionic effects", yeah. Maybe give the motivate a "Cleanses all psionic effects" even.

Dvar: I think dvar suffer a lot from having a playstyle that's not obvious. They are wonderfully crafted though I think. I hadn't the opportunity to test all of their units, but the ones I did were all awesome. The trencher is the staple of their army, and this everyone can see it. But the foreman is a staple to support them for several reasons: first is the army heal, a strategic efficiency booster like few others, because it allows to keep fighting turn after turn. The tactical heal and encouragement are it's main function, what's make it an excellent support. Then the concussive melee is a deterrent to any enemy melee unit. And finally the mortar is a cover destroyer and a stagger on aoe. Again a deterent to any enemy that would come close. This unit is a toolbox like no other in game. But it's definitely not a fighting unit.

I agree, Dvar have to be played very different from the other races, and their concept makes them my favourite in theory. However, there are many weird Things that don't really fit together at the same time, so that I can't help but feel that they Need to be played much more mindful than the other races.
A stagger resistant Foreman (through celestian or the racial blast armor) is a nightmare for any melee (hate it when I'm Kir'Ko and have to fight them ), and even without stagger resistance, they only Need 1 AP to stun you on their turn.

The ramjet is awesome too. At first one of the scariest dvar unit I faced. It's rockets are missiles on unit you can research extremely quick, combined with it's speed an army of those are a bomber run. And then their melee attack is deadly, no less, and the only racial unit that can melee overwatch on air units. I found the melee attack of the ramjet to be one of the most powerful attack from T2 air units, unless you stack loads of mods on the others. Usually air attacks are very inaccurate and low damage. This one combine with the first melee mod of the dvar makes the ramjet very deadly. But it follows the dvar doctrine: full melee assault. You shouldn't sent it alone in the enemy army. You should send it with your trenchers who just built trenches next to their enemies. You should ram the enemies from behind to take them out of cover and direct contact with your trenchers.

Which just isn't viable against ranged armies that have overwatch abilities though...

Seems I'm pretty alone on the ramjet. Firstly, I thought each Flyer (apart from Scouts) cost 10 cosmite baseline...was that changed? Are ramjets an exception? That would Change my opinion quite a bit.
Apart from that, Air to Air attacks usually have Bonus damage, so I don't see why the ramjet should be more deadly than other Flyers, especially considering the likelyhood of death when going melee with a Flyer without cover. The melee overwatch against air... meh, enemy Flyers usually are above their army, so staying next to them mostly causes death to the ramjet by the army below, freeing the enemy Flyer of the overwatch as well...
https://minionsart.github.io/aowp/Pages/Units/DvarUnits.html It still says 10 cosmite there. If it doesn't cost 10 cosmite anymore, I'd consider it much more viable, but I still don't find them worth the 10 cosmite baseline.

The earthcrusher then. To me it's ability to crush the land is misunderstood. It's not an ability to raid the enemy. It's an ability to siege him. You waste his territory to force him to attack your army. This way you don't need to fight the garrisons withe armies on top. And if the enemy don't take the fight, you'll turn it's land into waste and crush his economy. It's one of the few siege weapons in the game, along with some operations. In tactical combat it's kind of an artillery and an excavator tank combine. It's gun is deadly. It will murder any melee coming near him. And it can tractor beam the supports who hide behind. The gun is the main ability. The other ones are here for the assault that always come in the dvar doctrine.

On the other Hand, you just give the enemy time to Rally his Forces, and you can't flee with its 24 movement, so you might doom your army. And if you have enough powerful stacks, you could just overrun the City with the militia.

I'd really like to hear your General thoughts about Dvar Tactics btw, as far as I read it you pretty much go full melee with them?

Synthesis mods: there are quite some talks about how strong some Synthesis mods are. To me they are not that strong. They are actually required to give you at least this to justify the use of this secret tech. Because this tech is so much about shitting on vehicles, it's easy for it to be almost useless. When you face amazons or kir'ko, you'll be left with 3 mods and 2 operations in the whole tree. The total network integration will require a shitload of research to through two useless mods before giving you it's bonuses. And as a tier 2 mod it's expensive enough that modding all your armies with it is not always a possibility. The first two mods and operations are awesome, but after that your left with almost exclusively anti-vehicle and cyborg stuff. It's a great secret tech, but polarized to be either supportive at low cost or shining against specific enemies.

I Kind of agree, it's a very difficult tech to Balance properly, as it is so much weaker against Amazons and Kir'ko compared to Vanguard and Syndicate and extremely potent against assembly. The first two mods and OPs, and later total Network Integration are beasts, so it's fine to just do the early Research and ignore the rest until much later. Though the second synth unit can be a nice Support depending on your army.
It's the same as xenoplague vs. mechanicals. All those Status immunities can create Problems.

 

[Garresh]

That 'self-support abilities' make Synth OP in multiplayer lol.

Man I wish I could do online these days. I do offline but I tend to see the same pattern. Anti-mech is basically just icing on the incredibly strong Synth core of mods and support abilities. Even the network link is insane.

Anyways, you gave a ton of feedback and it was somewhat condensed and not formatted in a useful way(no offense) . Like you mentioned Assembly were nerfed into the ground for instance. I'd like to hear more, and if possible could you ask some of the people you play with online to drop by? Trying to hear more online players but so far I get the feeling this is more offline players in this thread.

 

[Garresh]

I'm disagree with some statements.



So, you have never seen spam of ramjets and General Alert Protocol? Lucky you...



Pretty mediocre, imao. The top support is Transcended - fast, regenerated, absorb pain and global + tactical heal. All of these features present without ANY mod.



Assembly is a piece of useless crap. Some latest nerfs made them even worse (especially science nerf).
Mediocre basic infantry (no decent melee, no decent range and almost nonexistent life steal now).
Support needs to be researched.
Sniper is ok, but worse than Hidden.
Poor scout losing to ANY other racial scout.
Mediocre flyer becoming good only with selfbuff.
Overnerfed Wrecker, completely useless as any other melee unit in game.
Disassembler is acceptable.
T4 is nice, but you won't survive before it appears.

Also you forgot a lot of obviously OP stuff, especially mods.
Let's begin.
Guardian Daemon Shell - OP T1 mod for ANY unit.
General Alert Protocol - OP spell for funny price (25 energy + 1 pt, LOL).
Accelerated Healing - most cancerous ability of AoW3 (Regrowth), now for EVERY unit, cheap and fast.
Acid Rain - just sit, wait and look how you enemy melts on battlefield.
Mass Insanity - how to turn off almost entire enemy army.
Improved Combat Sensors - +20% (!!!) evasion. Do you know how amazing modded OWLs with this and Guardian Daemon Shell mods? #1 choice for no brain rush in current multiplayer meta.

If I can steer the discussion a bit, this post stood out to me as being informative if slightly abrasive, but I haven't seen anybody really address any of its points. He has now 3 agreements on his post, which clearly means many take it seriously. I'd like to know what people think about the points he mentioned. I've also seen some mention of voidtech phase manipulators and Rift generators being a problem.

As for some of my own questions, what makes the Guardian Shell in particular so good? Voidtech gets a mod that gives the same bonus(slightly weaker) but ALSO applies to melee and let's units pass through walls. Perhaps that mod should also be included? On that note, should accuracy or evasion mods as a whole be toned down? Need more info here.

Is regen still as strong in PF as it was in 3? Damage seems higher over all tbh, and the amount of ranged on the battlefield makes me feel like regen isn't as good. However, you're not alone in saying this. I'm about to add it after this post but again need more opinions.

I'm just going to throw General Alert Protocol, Acid Rain, and Mass Insanity under possible for now and see what responses we get. They definitely seem out of line.

Edit: Is the Engulfer miscategorized?

 

[Garresh]

Hokay list is hella updated. Parsed through everything in this thread. Moved 1 or 2 things around. Added like 6 new things.

 

[Elgareth]

As for some of my own questions, what makes the Guardian Shell in particular so good? Voidtech gets a mod that gives the same bonus(slightly weaker) but ALSO applies to melee and let's units pass through walls. Perhaps that mod should also be included? On that note, should accuracy or evasion mods as a whole be toned down? Need more info here.

Is regen still as strong in PF as it was in 3? Damage seems higher over all tbh, and the amount of ranged on the battlefield makes me feel like regen isn't as good. However, you're not alone in saying this. I'm about to add it after this post but again need more opinions.

I'm just going to throw General Alert Protocol, Acid Rain, and Mass Insanity under possible for now and see what responses we get. They definitely seem out of line.

Edit: Is the Engulfer miscategorized?

What makes General Alert Protocol so extremely good? I can't really see how it's a better choice than other OPs, as you only have one per round. IIRC you can't attack if you use all movement Points, only defend.

Personally I find Evasion mods as such extremely potent. 20% less hitchance equals 20% less damage taken, which is mostly equal to +1 armor or +1 shield, that they also give.
The VoidTech mod can only be put onto infantry/mounted, while the Evasion daemon can be put on anything. Since I use infantry for most of the game anyway, I agree that they fall into the same power category.

Regeneration is extremely strong IMHO, especially on more cluttered battlefields where you can withdraw damaged Units into relative safety. The complete heal per strategic round is just icing on the cake. That having said, I feel Kir'Ko do Need their early Regeneration mod, and other Options are "expensive/late" enough to be balanced.
It's weak on rookie Units that lack the health to survive two attacks in the same round, and in the later game with higher accuracy and damage your Units get shot down easily as well.
But it's a Major boon for autocombat and creeping early to midgame.

On Zaskows post:
As pure offline Player, I don't find assembly that much worse. Actually I find the scavengers more useful than before, because of the stagger on the shotgun. You can now run up to another melee unit, and instead of hitting them with one melee hit, can blow them the shotgun into their face with no Retaliation, increasing the damage of scavengers compared to before. The Assimilate nerf makes their Regeneration abilities much worse, but it's still useful IMHO and to me, scavengers are still better than Kir'Ko frenzied.

The Support Research... I don't really care about too much. I like it very much, and the ability to revive multiple Units in a fight is great, as are the dummy Targets. Also this means that you get the extremely powerful snipers without Research. I don't find the snipers worse than hidden. The 2 turn disable is massive, as is the blinding shot, and the damage is great as well. Also they get the kinetic weapon mods, making them 10 range powerhouses. PLUS your heroes can give them additional turns in the early rounds, where you don't do much anyway, so they can pick apart some Units from 10 range right at the start.

The Scout... yeah well, I don't really care. He has a heal though, so he's fine as militia IMHO.

The Flyer I also don't find too great. The AoE stagger requires good positioning and planning beforehand, 5 range is meh. With bouncing staggering shots in the lategame they might be more useful, but other Units are better at that stage either way.

The wrecker is just fodder against anything with ranged psi attacks. The revive is alright...I personally don't use them though. Too much cosmite for what they do.

The electrocutioner is very useable after the buff IMHO. They are accurate, do good damage, and can extend to 8 range with their AoE if needed. And I don't have anything against arc damage as many seem to do. Apart from the grounding harness of Amazons, arc can lower the resistance against itself consistently, and electrified with 15% lower hitchance is a fine debuff IMHO. I find bouncing attacks more useful than for example the kinetic AoE. Overall kinetic has better mods, but arc can lower resistance, bounce, stagger...my endgame electrocutioners are often as effective as the snipers in killing Units.

 

[Ferrus Animus]

As for some of my own questions, what makes the Guardian Shell in particular so good? Voidtech gets a mod that gives the same bonus(slightly weaker) but ALSO applies to melee and let's units pass through walls. Perhaps that mod should also be included? On that note, should accuracy or evasion mods as a whole be toned down? Need more info here.

I think it is a bit easier, especially in the early game, to stack evasions whereas accuracy is quite limited.
Every unit can already get 25% from going defensive, and adding another 20-25% with tech 1 mods (Or more for amazons and vanguard) adds up quickly with cover, increasing survivability quite a bit.
It's much stronger against the AI as while the AI loves staggering, it otherwise tries to optimize damage, so easier to hit targets tend to be prioritized.

 

[MaitreBouh]

I'd much prefer 1 more range, that would make him SO much more useful in larger battles, where melee isn't an Option for squishier Units until the numbers are lowered.



He does have the biological strategic Regeneration though. He doesn't have the tactical Regeneration that fully heals if you meant that, but that's...expected, Kind of?
The heal could use a "Also cleanses all non-psionic effects", yeah. Maybe give the motivate a "Cleanses all psionic effects" even.



I agree, Dvar have to be played very different from the other races, and their concept makes them my favourite in theory. However, there are many weird Things that don't really fit together at the same time, so that I can't help but feel that they Need to be played much more mindful than the other races.
A stagger resistant Foreman (through celestian or the racial blast armor) is a nightmare for any melee (hate it when I'm Kir'Ko and have to fight them ), and even without stagger resistance, they only Need 1 AP to stun you on their turn.



Which just isn't viable against ranged armies that have overwatch abilities though...

Seems I'm pretty alone on the ramjet. Firstly, I thought each Flyer (apart from Scouts) cost 10 cosmite baseline...was that changed? Are ramjets an exception? That would Change my opinion quite a bit.
Apart from that, Air to Air attacks usually have Bonus damage, so I don't see why the ramjet should be more deadly than other Flyers, especially considering the likelyhood of death when going melee with a Flyer without cover. The melee overwatch against air... meh, enemy Flyers usually are above their army, so staying next to them mostly causes death to the ramjet by the army below, freeing the enemy Flyer of the overwatch as well...
https://minionsart.github.io/aowp/Pages/Units/DvarUnits.html It still says 10 cosmite there. If it doesn't cost 10 cosmite anymore, I'd consider it much more viable, but I still don't find them worth the 10 cosmite baseline.



On the other Hand, you just give the enemy time to Rally his Forces, and you can't flee with its 24 movement, so you might doom your army. And if you have enough powerful stacks, you could just overrun the City with the militia.

I'd really like to hear your General thoughts about Dvar Tactics btw, as far as I read it you pretty much go full melee with them?



I Kind of agree, it's a very difficult tech to Balance properly, as it is so much weaker against Amazons and Kir'ko compared to Vanguard and Syndicate and extremely potent against assembly. The first two mods and OPs, and later total Network Integration are beasts, so it's fine to just do the early Research and ignore the rest until much later. Though the second synth unit can be a nice Support depending on your army.
It's the same as xenoplague vs. mechanicals. All those Status immunities can create Problems.

About dvar. You don't send the ramjet blindly on top of the enemy army. To me, the dvar army must keep rather packed, except for the artillery and bulwark that stays behind. It's not a full out melee assault either. It's more like investing enemy positions. The contact is made over 2 turns: first you stay on cover, just at the edge of enemy range. Second you go as close as you can, and you make a line of trenches to cover your units, ideally no more that 2 hexes away from the enemy. Foreman can blow covers a stagger everyone, trenchers have full power spike guns at point blank for max damage, or even shield bash melee enemies. This turn is the engagement turn, that's when the ramjet blow their speed and ram enemies from max distance, or spit rockets for mass stagger and damage. Then you invest the enemy lines to get to enemies farther behind. Foreman can now use trenches, and other units finish what's left between them and the trenchers.
basically, you want to have a line of trenches as close from the enemy as possible, and move it forward so there's no more line between enemy side and yours. Dvar are good brawlers. Trenchers are awesome to hit and controle. All units have so much stagger, and destroy every cover the enemy can have.

For the earth crusher, the enemy can rally his troups, but not fast enough to prevent some sectors to be blown up, and you can do things too during this time, like attacking another front or bringing reinforcement too.

Synthesis: I made more comments about synthesis in the dedicated thread. Basically I find that, although it's first mods and operations are strong, other secret techs have things as strong as this one. It's selling point is that it's a good and universal defense mod. So it's a no brainer, but it does nothing against melee, and it's definitely not more powerful than what you get elsewhere. Celestian mods for example are as good as this one IMO (shield of remorse is insane). But guardian shell will provide defense, something many people like to help your units survive, and especially with races that lack a defense mod at the beginning.

I won't comment anything specific zaskow said, because his positions always lack any possibility to be discussed anyway.

 

[TomRon]

The "problem" as I see it, is that most PF players (afaiao) do not play MP, and that's really the only venue for testing what's really OP and what isn't. I can give suggestions based on what I think, but it will hardly be based on specific facts since we can only get those from MP. And apart from some obvious things (Deaths gaze) I've yet to see the MP crowd agree on anything OP?

 

[MaitreBouh]

MP community can mod their balance wishes as much as they like. I'd like them to not corrupt the main game with their narrow minded views about what the game should or shouldn't be.