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Drewoid13

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Yea, HQ microing along a big front was a PITA. And initial organizing the start setup. I always had to group, reassign, and redeploy each division. Then make sure everyone was in command range.... It was a chore. Otherwise game play was quite fun once the war got going.
 

rust95

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Yea, HQ microing along a big front was a PITA. And initial organizing the start setup. I always had to group, reassign, and redeploy each division. Then make sure everyone was in command range.... It was a chore. Otherwise game play was quite fun once the war got going.

The UI is what made it a chore though. Imagine HoI4's UI with the OOB....my mouth waters!
 

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There's a lot of differences, I don't expect I'll remember them all off the top of my head, but I will try to summarize for you. Keep in mind that HoI3 today is after 3 major expansion packs, each with a year of dev time, so you're comparing the final form of HoI3 to the in-progress Hoi4. A lot of major mechanics were only added or fleshed out to HoI3 with these expansions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Hearts of Iron 3, there was no "World Tension" meter, instead, being able to declare wars and pass laws such as conscription or mobilization was based around "threat" and "neutrality". Each country had "threat" with each other country. If Germany created a lot of threat, and the countries around Germany had low enough "neutrality", they were able to declare war.

In Hearts of Iron 3, there was a resource called "leadership" which the player needed to channel into Research, Espionage Points, Officers, and Diplomacy Points. You controlled how much leadership went into each thing. 1 point of leadership could research 1 technology, or generate a certain number of officers per day, or generate a certain number of espionage or diplomacy points per day. Small countries would have 6-10 leadership, large countries like Germany would have closer to 30.

In Hearts of Iron 3, there were a huge number of technologies compared to HoI4 since you could research many technologies at a time. Most technologies were "repeating", with years attached. For example, "infantry small arms" would have a 1936, 1939, 1941, 1943, 1945, 1947, 1949... version.

In Hearts of Iron 3, there was no separation between Military, Civilian and Naval factories. There was a generic resource called "IC" which built everything, and there was a single production queue for IC, ships, aircraft, land units and so on. IC was assigned to - "Production", "Supply", "reinforcements", "upgrades", "consumer goods".

In Hearts of Iron 3, there was no such thing as "equipment", land units simply had a certain number of stats based on technology. If you build a unit with 1941 equipment, and wanted to upgrade it to 1943 equipment, you needed to assign IC to "unit upgrades" and they would slowly be upgraded. Similarly, if a unit was damaged, you simply assigned IC to "reinforcements" and the damage would be repaired as long as you had enough manpower.

In HoI3, there was no "production efficiency" in the same way there was in HoI4, since there were no production lines. Instead, you had a system called "practicals". Building tanks increased your Armored Vehicle practical, building infantry increased Infantry Practical. This boosted research speed for related technologies, and reduced the build time for future units of that. Practicals faded over time without use.

In HoI3, manpower was a steady income instead of a flat percentage of population. With a high conscription law, your manpower would increase at some abstract number like "2 per month", which might represent 2000 or 20000 men or something like that. In HoI4, you pass a conscription law and all eligible people are granted to you in manpower, but the increase over time is very slow to represent population growth.

In HoI3, you had a full Order of Battle. Every division could be assigned to a corps, which was assigned to an army, then an army group, then a theatre. Each division, corps, army, army group and theatre would have its own leaders.

In HoI3, there was a simple espionage system. You assigned spies to enemy countries, and they would give you intelligence, or fight enemy spies, or do coups. In HoI4 currently there is no espionage, however parts of the old system are incorporated through "decryption/encryption", and there is a system for coups and influence separate from espionage.

In HoI3, air wings were manually controlled and told to cover certain areas or fly to specific provinces to do bombings in support of specific attacks. In Hoi4, you assign to air-regions and tell them to perform certain missions. In Hoi3 air wings had HP, while in Hoi4 they are modelled as individual planes that are lost and need to be replaced.

In HoI3, there was a full, detailed (but also buggy) supply system that traced supplies that you built from your capital or a local supply depot to the front lines. In HoI4, supply is a bit more abstract, you don't build them directly, they come from regions and flow. It's simpler and less impactful, but less buggy and doesn't require as much attention.

In HoI3, there was no concept of unit training or early deployment. You simply had laws that controlled how highly trained units were. You couldn't emergency deploy, nor could you perform on-map training on units to boost up their XP.

In HoI3, you did not have equipment or equipment stockpiles, but you did have resource stockpiles. Metal, Energy, Fuel, Crude Oil, Rares, Supplies and Money were the resources you had, and you traded for them. Any surplus was stockpiled allowing you to build up massive stockpiles pre-war that could last you for years. In HoI4, resources are not stockpiled, they are simply in surpluss or deficit, and control how fast you build things. In Hoi3, you needed 1 energy, 1 metal and 1 rare for every unit of IC.

In Hoi3, units used both supply and fuel. In Hoi4, fuel is abstracted into production and units only use supply to move.

In HoI3, there was only "AI control" or full manual control for units in combat. HoI3 was mainly designed for full player control with non-critical fronts being relegated to the AI. In HoI4, the battle planner is AI controlled but designed for constant player intervention alongside the AI. In HoI3, you could set objectives for the AI but it was quite poor. In HOI4, you set frontlines and tell the AI where to advance. It's an improvement over hoi3 ai control, but still has problems that need fixing.

In HoI3, there were no peace conferences, just "war goals" that you added during the war. If you ended the war and forgot to set war goals, the war simply ended in white peace.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Overall, in my opinion HoI3 is a more complex game, but not necessarily better. HoI3 version 1.0 at launch was pretty bad and a complete technical mess, HoI4 1.0 also had problems but was much more stable and well rounded. Certain aspects of HoI3 (with Their Finest Hour expansion) are superior to HoI4 as of today. I believe that HoI4 will eventually surpass HoI3 in almost every area, and that currently it is a more fun game to play. But this is just my perspective - HoI3 is also a more challenging game, has a higher degree of complexity (for better and worse), so some of the more hardcore players will consider HoI3 to be more fun.


Very good comparison
and good assesment of short term / long term evolution of HoI4
+1
 

adam_grif

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not true. the dev teams rotated what they were working on back then...

Well whatever the case, the game launched in 2009 and had the first expansion 10 months later, second expansion 12 months after that, and third expansion 14 months after the second.

Timeline wise hoi4 is about where hoi3 was when Semper Fi released.
 

Had a dad

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Well whatever the case, the game launched in 2009 and had the first expansion 10 months later, second expansion 12 months after that, and third expansion 14 months after the second.

Timeline wise hoi4 is about where hoi3 was when Semper Fi released.
I'm well aware of the timeline of when things were released, as well as that not all time between was spent on development...
 

ggsimmonds

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Yea, HQ microing along a big front was a PITA. And initial organizing the start setup. I always had to group, reassign, and redeploy each division. Then make sure everyone was in command range.... It was a chore. Otherwise game play was quite fun once the war got going.
I enjoyed the early game setup.

Organizing my OOB was fun to me. I never had trouble with command range, but I think that was because I was meticulous in my planning.

Realistic OOB is the worst omission in HOI4 to me (portraits are up there as well, I mean I agree that the new stylized portraits "fit" the look of the UI better, but damn do I hate these generic Clone War officers)
 
Last edited:

Alex_brunius

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WHAT A GERMAN OOB MIGHT LOOK LIKE LATE 41:

What the Soviet AIs OOB that you fight against ( or any OOB of a front that you hand over to the AI to take care of ) looks like at the same time...:

( For those who have not played HoI3 red lines mean out of range = no bonuses from leaders )

r8A9z1o.jpg


And this is what it still looks like even with all expansions and patches in HoI3 :p

Unfortunately it was dropped to speed things up in multiplayer, which only 15% (?) of players play.

According to who?

From what I have read I and observed I got the impression that the reason it was never included in HoI4 was because:

1.) Most players didn't enjoy assigning 100:eds of division leaders + dozens of corps leaders every time they play a major, and didn't enjoy spending for example 1 hour to fix the Soviet OOB at start of a new game
2.) The AI would struggle with it and have yet another handicap vs the player
 
Last edited:

browd

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None at all. And to make it even worse, the AI never understood the bonuses from general choices in the OOB hierarchy (e.g., army group commander gave -5% supply usage for each level, making level 5 army group leaders near unto gods) or general traits or how to promote or demote generals, so you would see AI assigning level 6 panzer leaders to a single division guarding a port. The OOB in HOI3 was the single biggest human-player bonus in the game -- hands down. For all those who professed to enjoy tinkering with corps and army group assignments, many others probably just put up with the tedium to gain the bonuses that allowed them to ROLF stomp the AI. Eventually, I just started playing with every division assigned directly to the theater command -- only by crippling myself could I stand playing.
 

marcotam

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Totally agree with browd. AI of HOI3 is worst and most of player with manual control only. In HOI4, they put the effort on battle plan and target the user play with AI. The draw back is simplify the "grouping" into theater & army only to make the AI easier to handle the co-operation. But we cannot see any benefit from current theater / army level. It is better to put the Field Marshall as the theater level with bonus to its army. HOI4 AI always use few best FM to lead hundreds of Divisions. It is the HOI3 OOB fan not like to see.
 
Last edited:

The Balbinater

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it was my opinion that Hoi3 was one of the worst programs ever put to code. I played it the week it came out, shelved it, and never played it again. that's how bad it was.

I know the ongoing love affair many in this community have for it, but these are mostly newcomers who are remembering the expansions, not the state it was released in.

Hoi4 is VASTLY superior, in my opinion, even in its current state, which is admittedly not perfect by any means.
 

marcotam

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Understand your opinion for HOI3. HOI3 is harder to learn, much complicate, and need a lot of effort on micro-management on OOB. It is also my experience when start playing HOI3 I leave it for a month. But go in deep, you will find the interest on the micro-management of the OOB and re-organize the OOB as your interest or by history. HOI4 is fine but we are like to see the OOB back to HOI4.
 

Zoe1444

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With the new front system, the OOB system would be amazing. Unfortunately it was dropped to speed things up in multiplayer, which only 15% (?) of players play.

It was a mess of a system and didn't really add anything other than forcing me to make sure auto-assigned leaders weren't poorly assigned on my hundreds of divisions. It also widened the gap of majors vs minors (which leadership already makes most minors unplayable and Italy just barely so) since most minors had few leaders for their divisions compared to majors. Even Italy will struggle to get enough leaders for all their divisions late in the game.
 

rust95

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According to who?

From what I have read I and observed I got the impression that the reason it was never included in HoI4 was because:

1.) Most players didn't enjoy assigning 100:eds of division leaders + dozens of corps leaders every time they play a major, and didn't enjoy spending for example 1 hour to fix the Soviet OOB at start of a new game
2.) The AI would struggle with it and have yet another handicap vs the player

Okay, so why didn't they just remove division level commanders? Why not just remove HQ units and have an OOB tab, which both the player and the AI could easily manage? Cutting out the OOB was the easy option, streamlining it with the new system and UI would have been excellent.

The concept of the OOB wasn't the problem, it was HoI3s clunky UI which meant it was slow as fuck to adequately assign leaders and units to certain commands and made doing it a chore. That wouldn't be the case on HoI4! Also, I don't agree with the assertion that people didn't enjoy swapping in and out leaders to their OOBs.
 

Alex_brunius

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Okay, so why didn't they just remove division level commanders? Why not just remove HQ units and have an OOB tab, which both the player and the AI could easily manage? Cutting out the OOB was the easy option, streamlining it with the new system and UI would have been excellent.

Because they were not "cutting" it. According to what devs have written before everything was coded from scratch for HoI4, they didn't keep any systems or code from HoI3.

This means in order to "keep" the OOB for release the developers would have to make different priorities and leave something else out of HoI4, and in order to develop an AI that can handle an OOB, some other part of AI design would have to get by with less development time.

Which other mechanic in HoI4 and which part of the AI could you live without in order for HoI4 to have an OOB at release?

Also, I don't agree with the assertion that people didn't enjoy swapping in and out leaders to their OOBs.

From what I have seen in reviews the OOB ( and it's clunky UI ) was one of the main things which prevented new players from getting in to and enjoying HoI3. In order for HoI4 to be successful and have a future at all it had to appeal to both old and new players, so while I don't agree with the choice of leaving the OOB totally out of Hoi4 either ( since I did enjoy parts of it ), I can understand why Paradox made that decision.
 

rust95

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Because they were not "cutting" it. According to what devs have written before everything was coded from scratch for HoI4, they didn't keep any systems or code from HoI3.


They cut the feature of the OOB from the Hearts of Iron series. I never suggested they kept the code, as it is very obvious they didn't. You knew that of course, you were just being pedantic. To say they "never cut it" in this context would have to mean "it was never in the series", which, of course, it was.

Which other mechanic in HoI4 and which part of the AI could you live without in order for HoI4 to have an OOB at release?

I really cannot stand when people use this argument. I am not their accountant, publisher, or programmer. I am not interested in discussing Paradox Interactive Studios resources which they did or didn't have. I never asked them to release the game on June 6th 2016. I am just someone who plays and enjoys there games, and commenting on what I think would have (and could still) made HoI4 a better game. It is such a cop out to say "but what about resources", resources which you know absolutely nothing about, as do I.

I could literally say that to any comment on the "suggestion" thread. "Ah yeah mate but you've got to think about resources do you know how many deadlines they've got this week"?
 

REDDQ

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Which other mechanic in HoI4 and which part of the AI could you live without in order for HoI4 to have an OOB at release?

HoI4 is bare functional minimum needed to resemble WW2 wargame and there is no mechanic that can be cut out (I wouldn't miss air warfare though :p). That said OOB could be included with longer development or with first DLC instead of puppet and/or guard mechanics, both being really not that critical.

I do not think a lot of people actually want to have hundreds of officers to attach ever again. What I want is more or less this...
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/oob-mockup.952700/#post-21618941
minus the divisions part maybe
 
Last edited:

Alex_brunius

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I am not interested in discussing Paradox Interactive Studios resources which they did or didn't have.

Yet this is exactly what you are doing when you demand that their games should have feature X or feature Y instead of having "cut it", without compromising anything else, is it not? You are assuming they should have resources and time which they obviously didn't have.

It's a simple fact that resources are not endless and there is no free lunch, just pointing this out.

It's one thing to make a suggestion for what you would want to see in the future and something else totally to start making demands of what should have been in the game at release.

commenting on what I think would have (and could still) made HoI4 a better game

Both I, podcat ( and many many others ) agree that some kind of OOB would make HoI4 a better game, so all of us are agreeing on this, and it's a fine suggestion.
 

rust95

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Understand your opinion for HOI3. HOI3 is harder to learn, much complicate, and need a lot of effort on micro-management on OOB. It is also my experience when start playing HOI3 I leave it for a month. But go in deep, you will find the interest on the micro-management of the OOB and re-organize the OOB as your interest or by history. HOI4 is fine but we are like to see the OOB back to HOI4.

This to be honest is the best way to summarise how I feel about OOBs (even though the English isn't perfect, I get the point;)). I understand why some people hate it, totally, not even defending it. I would just have liked to see it in HoI4 in a new form (even if it was via a OOB tab without HQ units).