Communist revolt in france should never join axis !

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Mortmal

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I've played recently again, last time it was at release and waited for a few DLC, so i am learning up the game again with allt hose updates . France playthrough again, and i was surprised in 1939 , a communist revolt triggers, no warning before, no obvious way to prevent it. So it split the country in two behind the line , but worse they immediately join axis ! That makes no sense at all, such faction should never ever join fascists, there was quite a few commie resistants in my family and area , their ideology make this completely impossible .They litterally rather die than join them .A game over and really immersion breaking one .
 
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squid_hills

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their ideology make this completely impossible .They litterally rather die than join them.

Which is why Molotov-Ribbentrop surprised everyone. Nobody expected that Hitler and Stalin might realize that Germany and the USSR were both pariah states, with no allies, and surround by enemies (with Poland as a shared enemy sandwiched between them) and figure that a temporary alliance would give each of them the time and safety to pursue their individual goals. Of course they both planned on betraying each other eventually, but it made sense for them to work together for a little while.

Communist revolutionaries in France allying with Germany makes more sense in that light, especially if Molotov-Ribbentrop has been signed by that point, as historically, French Communist groups didn't resist the German occupation until after Barbarossa started.

And at any rate, HoI4 alliance mechanics are wacky as fudge. Any country in a defensive war with Germany can join the Allies, even fascist ones. Any country at war with Germany can join the Comintern, even fascist ones. I've seen Monarchist Germany allied to fascist Poland and Communist France in a war with fascist Italy and fascist Britain. Either you learn to laugh at it, or you go insane.
 
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Breakman42

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I dont know if you like playing with mods but there is one called Faction Ideology Matters that fixes this pretty well.

If you dont use mods then yeah you are stuck but i agree with squid_hills.

Excellent historical context @squid_hills. I agree fully though i did not know the part about french communists only starting resisting after Barbarossa. Thanks for the new info.
 
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Premu

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And at any rate, HoI4 alliance mechanics are wacky as fudge. Any country in a defensive war with Germany can join the Allies, even fascist ones. Any country at war with Germany can join the Comintern, even fascist ones. I've seen Monarchist Germany allied to fascist Poland and Communist France in a war with fascist Italy and fascist Britain. Either you learn to laugh at it, or you go insane.

You mean like Greece ruled by a fascist dictatorship which joined the allies? Or Finland not-joining the Axis against the Sovjet Union? Alliances did happen outside of the ideological spectrum simply due to the situation in which some countries were caught, and their allies normally didn't mind that their new friend might not really share their values.
 

colonel Oink

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Poorly reflects the diversity of the "communists" of that era. Surely there were potential allies of the Nazis (the same Doriot was a native of the Communist Party, and in the USSR itself there were many willing to cooperate), but it certainly could not be Torez or Duclos.
 

Spelaren

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Were there in the Soviet Union, or the puppet states, or North Korea today?
The american communist path, you'd think they'd have voting and such given their history... There are many different flavours of communism, there's the red fascism variants like juche, maoism and stalinism for example.
 
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kettyo

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The american communist path, you'd think they'd have voting and such given their history... There are many different flavours of communism, there's the red fascism variants like juche, maoism and stalinism for example.

I don't think any version of communism includes free elections as those are seen as a capitalist tool to get influence in state matters and ultimately get total control. Let me know if i'm mistaken.
 
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squid_hills

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I don't think any version of communism includes free elections as those are seen as a capitalist tool to get influence in state matters and ultimately get total control. Let me know if i'm mistaken.

I don't know if you'd consider the Sandinista government of Nicaragua from 1979-90 Communist or just really, really socialist (I know the Reagan administration considered them Communist but YMMV), but they held elections in 1984. Despite several opposition parties boycotting the election, the opposition still won around 33% of the seats in the government. The Sandinistas were ultimately defeated in the 1990 election (though they still held onto a plurality of the seats).

That sounds like free elections, though I should point out that A) the Sandinistas may not qualify as Communist depending on personal opinion, and B) they were pretty much the only example I could find.

Sure, lots of Communist countries held elections, but I wouldn't consider them "free", as typically only members of the Communist Party could vote and only members of the Communist Party could run. When you have an election like that, where only the ruling party can vote or run for office, the results of having an election tend to look exactly like the results of not having an election.
 

kettyo

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Sure, lots of Communist countries held elections, but I wouldn't consider them "free", as typically only members of the Communist Party could vote and only members of the Communist Party could run. When you have an election like that, where only the ruling party can vote or run for office, the results of having an election tend to look exactly like the results of not having an election.

Exactly, those are only for legitimating the actual power.

I don't know if you'd consider the Sandinista government of Nicaragua from 1979-90 Communist or just really, really socialist (I know the Reagan administration considered them Communist but YMMV), but they held elections in 1984. Despite several opposition parties boycotting the election, the opposition still won around 33% of the seats in the government. The Sandinistas were ultimately defeated in the 1990 election (though they still held onto a plurality of the seats).

That sounds like free elections, though I should point out that A) the Sandinistas may not qualify as Communist depending on personal opinion, and B) they were pretty much the only example I could find.

I can't really comment on sandinism as i don't have any knowledge about it and as it's a much later development than the timeframe of the game maybe it doesn't have much relevance either.

I think we can base only upon communist regimes of the era like the Stalin or the Tito regime and none of them had free elections as far as i know.

There is an unrealistic thing in the game already that British communists are going on a decolonization route in a sense that they give away autonomy to colonies. This contradicts historical behaviour of communists which always meant centralization. Decolonization would be okay but in a sense that communists integrate the colonies into the empire and rule them from the central government. This would mean annexation in game terms. The Soviet Union was ruled all from Moscow, just like FR Yugoslavia all from Belgrade. Communists giving away autonomies is like what the hell???! :)
 
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squid_hills

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There is an unrealistic thing in the game already that British communists are going on a decolonization route in a sense that they give away autonomy to colonies. This contradicts historical behaviour of communists which always meant centralization. Decolonization would be okay but in a sense that communists integrate the colonies into the empire and rule them from the central government. This would mean annexation in game terms. The Soviet Union was ruled all from Moscow, just like FR Yugoslavia all from Belgrade. Communists giving away autonomies is like what the hell???! :)

I think the intent is to reflect the anti-colonialist attitudes of Communists. Most Communists outside of the UK wanted to see the British Empire broken up into it's constituent parts so that the locals could be free to govern themselves (as long as their government was Communist, of course). I'm not sure how Communists inside the UK felt about decolonization, but it is worth pointing out that while many Communists looked to the USSR as the "heart" of international Communism, many didn't agree with the ideas Stalin was putting forth, and hewed closer to Marxist-Leninism, or some other version of Communism. I think it is a safe bet that, if Communism had actually taken hold in the USA or the UK, it would look noticeably different than Communism in the USSR or China.

I think a better path for decolonization in HoI4 would be for the results to differ based on what ideology you are when you start the process. Currently, the UK is Democratic when it starts breaking up the Empire. As soon as the Dominions get independence, they leave the Allies and start watching movies on the living room sofa. This leaves the UK with all the newly released territories. Once decolonization is complete, everybody gets a random % roll to see if they stay in the Allies or form the Commonwealth faction (with the former Dominions usually forming their own faction, too) or go fully independent. That's fine, I guess, for a UK that starts decolonization as a Democracy and intends to stay as one as well, but I wouldn't have the Dominions be so quick to flee the Allied faction. India, yes, but not Canada or Australia (especially not if the Aussies and the Kiwis have fascist Japan stomping around the Pacific).

A UK that starts decolonization while Communist (which I'm not sure is even possible currently... I haven't gone down the Communist path as UK and the AI always starts the process as a Democracy) should have all the Dominions leave the faction (they start with enough autonomy that the UK wouldn't be able to realistically influence their ruling governments into flipping) and all of the newly released territories remain in the UK's faction, with no % chance for anyone to leave. This would turn the Empire into a Communist Confederation, where the member states are all equal in status, have full independence, but remain linked politically and militarily. It would also confer the protection of the UK's MIC and military over the member states while they bring their own industries up to speed. Right now, Communist UK dismantles the Allies faction once it goes full Communist, which leaves the game with a faction comprised entirely of very weak members, all of which are tiny and easy to capitulate, and one fewer country to offer guarantees of protection. Someone who waits for the UK to go full Communist before starting to expand can eat virtually the entire former British Empire in a single stroke (the faction has few, if any majors, so mass capitulation becomes the order of the day) with only France likely to try and guarantee anyone's independence.
 

kettyo

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This would turn the Empire into a Communist Confederation, where the member states are all equal in status, have full independence, but remain linked politically and militarily

But that's just not how it worked in reality and not what their economic-societal model points towards. Their model bases around central planning and control and as such it leads to the elimination of autonomies not the expansion of it. In any of the communist states autonomies were non-existent let it be the Soviet Union, China, Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Yugoslavia, etc.

Better game representation would be i think to annex everything and give the option to core former colonies by spending large amounts of PP similarly to how Spanish anarchists can do it now just restricted for the British Empire. This would represent the huge efforts communists have to make to integrate former colonies. So in the long run you might end up with a huge manpower pool as all your subjects are made equal to the state and big industry as you directly control the whole Empire but initially you face heavy resistance to represent counter-revolutionism. I think it would work well.
 

homerCCCP

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Actually Stalin die everything to appease the British and France between 1936 and 1939. Thus he forced the PCE to take moderate position, enforced the popular front doctrine, etc.
He was very much afraid of a German-British anti soviet alliance. Due to slow negotations about the anti-German safety sphere, he eventually felt betrayed and took the opportunity when Germany offered to devide Europe. The Soviets thought they will gain time for the (inevitable) war against Germany and they were granted more or less the territory they lost during Brest-Litowsk. On the other the MR-pact heavily weakened the Komintern.
A lot of sympathizers were disillusioned.
Because actually all the time Fascists and Communists have been enemies to death, even though some people like to mix them in one pot for ideological reasons.

There is no way a communist France would join Axis in early 1939. Logistical support, some unofficial agreement like the Soviets did with the MR-pact, under special circumstances yes, but an alliance: no. There is not a single historical example of a communist country allying with a fascist country. The MR-pact was not an alliance but the division of Europe between two hostile majors.

In the game this happens quite often. For example Communist China joining Japan, whis is similarly pointless.

I mean in the end people will disagree, centralists love to claim that Marxists are the same as Nazis. Arguing against this is like beating a dead horse.

But in the end I think we can all agree, that from a gameplay perspective, diplomacy must be significantly improved and has serious flaws at the moment. Not mentioning the broken white peace mechanic and the peace conferences.
 
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kettyo

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There is not a single historical example of a communist country allying with a fascist country

That's true but you know the full membership of the Soviet Union in the Axis was on the table. If it indeed went that way the smaller communist organizations all followed suit as Stalin had such an incredible respect and influence, he was much like a demigod to the communists.

The MR-Pact also had a marginal opposition among communists, most of them followed suit.