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Major Thom

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I've played a couple of successful games as Nat China and am thinking of having a go at Comm China next, but the wiki seems to be very out of date. Has TFH changed the Comm China strategy at all? Anyone had any recent success?

My first thoughts were to try and grab some territory before Marco Polo Bridge by attacking Xibei San Ma, then letting Shanxi and Nat China take the brunt of the Japanese attack. Then it would be a case of waiting for an opportunity to attack Nat China (shall we say backstab?) and try and unify China whilst avoiding the advancing Japanese.
 

Ted52

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Your strategy seems to be up to date. The "avoiding Japanese" part is most important though, as they WILL crush you.
 
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Major Thom

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Given the lack of leadership, I think I'll have to pick either infantry or militia to concentrate on. Infantry would be excellent given the usefulness of mountain troops to take Xibei, but the high leadership cost is a bit off-putting, so militia might be more sensible. Unless I can use the spies in Nat China to steal tech after they've finished raising threat? Hmmm...
 

marxianTJ

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In TFH, since you don't generally start out at war with Nat China or the warlords, and you won't be called into war against Japan generally, you have a few options.

You won't be able to declare war on anybody (even if you consistently raise the threat of Japan of Nat China) until Japan declares war on somebody.

At that point you've got two options, you can try to back stab Nat chi, while they're in their hopeless war against Japan (in TFH Nat Chi, in a 36 start, will completely collapse rapidly 100% of the time). You will *not* be able to take territory from Japan, so you need to be careful to avoid going into areas where the Japanese occupation will be once Nat Chi surrenders. From there you should be able to capture all but 1-2 of Nat China's VPs (you can get the remaining 2 on the coast if you're daring and super lucky) and force them to surrender to you, giving you all the remaining parts of Nat Chi. From there you're free to invade whomever you want of the war lords - the only thing that will happen is that, due to your threat, Xibei and Yunnan will likely go Axis - and GiE once you conquer them. This means you'll have to deal with partisan activity in these areas if you go for them.

Note also that if you join the comintern while declaring wars (you'll want to get at least Xibei and Sinkiang after Nat Chi goes down) you will generate a tremendous amount of threat and completely derail the game. It's also entirely possible to get the UK to declare war on you before Sept 1st, 1939, which will mean a 3 way war. So, it's best to hold off on joining the comintern (the only way this hurts is that with the USSR leading your alliance, Nat Chi generally surrenders before all of its VPs are lost more often - but you'll also generate 100+ threat to nearly every country in the world simply by declaring war on Xibei and Sinkiang).

Alternatively, you can *not* attack Nat chi, and simply go for Xibei on its own once Japan attacks Nat Chi. That will open up Tibet and Sinkiang. The terrain out there is really rough, but you should be OK.

Things that can go awry:

If Nat Chi goes to war with the Guangxi clique, and it takes a bit, they will generate a lot of threat towards you, and you'll be getting a lot of goodies from it. If they don't fight, you will have a harder time getting enough threat on them to declare war when Japan does (or shortly thereafter). The date Marco Polo fires is also variable, so you may end up waiting up to a year longer on some games (which makes taking out Nat Chi harder, since you can't really build that much during that year). If it fires too soon, you won't be able to get enough threat to declare war on Nat Chi at all before it surrenders to Japan - making an invasion of Nat Chi. virtually impossible.

Lastly, you could just sit there and do nothing for years, and then once Germany is dealt with, attempt to deal with Japan - with Soviet help (if they survived).

In any case the biggest question you'll have, regardless of which conquest based route you take, is how you will help the USSR. Taking out Nat Chi will net you a bit of IC, and if Xibei goes Axis you'll still be at war with their GiE and get to keep your best laws after they fall. This will give you the ability (once you take out Sinkiang, or build convoys) to send lend-lease to the USSR. You can also send divisions (the easiest way to do this is just to set up a Theater command in Sinkiang, and give it objectives on Soviet VPs - since the AI doesn't like to accept expeditionary forces). You could of course give nothing, and if the USSR loses, you'll just have a bit harder game (but less American interference in your theater maybe!).
 

Major Thom

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Thanks for the strategy tips marxian, it sounds like you've played a lot of Comm China games!

I think the strategy I prefer is to go for Xibei, Sinkiang, Tibet first as it means expanding away from the scary Japanese! Of course this creates a problem if Nat China crumbles quickly and I might end up with a large area of relatively useless terrain staring enviously at the riches of the former Nat China lands! In this case, would it be viable to wait for Japan to attack USA and for the tide to turn against them, then attack them as they weaken their mainland forces? Or should I send just my starting MTN troops into the badlands and try and land-grab from Nat China with my militia?

I also like the idea of flirting with the USSR but not committing to an alliance until China is unified and the Japanese are the target.

I started a game last night and found that with 10 spies in Xibei and in Nat China increasing threat I couldn't get anywhere near DOWing either of them without throwing all my leadership into replacing the spies I lost. Everything was fine for the first year, but then they started cranking up their counterespionage to the point that I couldn't keep up. Would it be possible to skip the threat-raising and still be able to DOW on Xibei or Nat China once Japan activates Marco Polo Bridge? The Prepare for War decision should lower my neutrality a long way, but will it be enough? That way I could use my spies to try and tech-steal from one of the wimpy democracies like France or UK which seemed to work really well playing as Nat China in previous games.

It definitely seems like a lot of luck is needed to get anywhere as Comm China!
 

marxianTJ

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1. The issue with raising threat prior to Marco Polo isn't so much to be able to declare against whomever you want (although it will be necessary to get your neutrality low enough, and their threat high enough to be able to do anything at all) it's that your laws are terrible, and your neutrality is super high at the start. By raising threat on Nat Chi (or Japan or any other nation around you) you can get yourself much better laws, which will give you an economy capable of building anything at all. The issue is that, at a basic start as Com Chi, literally all of your resources must go to producing supplies and consumer goods - and you likely won't have enough IC to cover your supply need, so it will slowly dwindle to nothing unless something is done.

2. For attacking Nat Chi, you don't need to worry about your borders at all. Xibei will remain neutral, and Japan will generally not attack you. So your main goal is to simply capture all of their VPs, excluding those VPs which will be held by Japan after they inevitably defeat Nat Chi and force them to sign a peace agreement (because Japan *will* get these territories and your troops therein will fall out of supply and be rendered useless).

Your leadership is so low, tech stealing may prove useful, but you'll be putting basically all of your LS into espionage at that point. I find it's best simply to raise threat against one target, and forcus on researching land doctrines, supply production, and energy production (because even if you have all of China you'll be pretty poor energy wise with no tech boosts).
 

Major Thom

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Quick question: when you're raising threat, do you switch to counter-espionage when their defensive spies increase, or just stick with raise threat and replace your losses? When I'm tech stealing I've got into the habit of taking down their spies once there are more than 2 or 3, so is it similar with raise threat?
 

marxianTJ

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You *can* do that to save yourself some trouble - I don't personally bother with it because it'll net me less threat over all, and if Japan Marco Polos earlier you're going to need every last possible point of threat lol.
 

Major Thom

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Ok, so raising threat high enough to Dow before the Japanese have beaten Nat China is hard! The closest I've managed after a couple of attempts is to Dow about a month after Nat China gave their coast up meaning that they've started to recover from the war somewhat. I gave it a go anyway and managed to grab one VP before they brought in a lot of INF and stopped me dead! I'm thinking a war of attrition is not something I could win here :-(
Is there any way of speeding up raise threat/lower neutrality? If I built more divisions instead of upgrading, would that have an effect?
 

marxianTJ

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Building divisions can happen once your neutrality gets you out of the sad-zone of having to put everything into CG and supplies - but yes, if Japan Marco polo's relatively early, and you do *anything* besides have 10 spies in Nat Chi at all times, and have them *only raising threat* it is within the realm of possibility that you'll be unable to DOW them in time. If such at hng happens maybe going for Xibei would be better (since your neutrality should drop to 0 shortly thereafter - you've got a few years to play with there lol). The only way to get Nat Chi out of the war is rush them down, so that they're completely crippled, should they surrender and choose not to give up to you. They just have too many divisions - and most of them are higher quality than yours being purely INF mainly - you'll have lots of MIL divisions :(. Another worst case scenario, is if you back stab Nat Chi, and they choose not to surrender, you can try to make peace. On occasion Nat Chi will agree to cede all the land you've conquered, which can keep you from getting crushed once they recover from the war with Japan (which will happen only a few short weeks after the surrender - once their troops exit Japanese territory).
 

Major Thom

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In the last attempt I had a gap of about 1.5 between threat and neutrality when a Japanese division took the 2 Nat China provinces that border comm China and totally cut me off, doh! I looked at attacking Xibei instead but they still had 0 threat so it would have taken months/years to Dow! However, in that game there was a couple of months where Nat China broke my spies and I had to build them back up again, so the solution is probably to invest more LS in spies and build up a bigger pool of free spies. Do you think raising threat in Xibei instead would be better? They should have less LS to counter and if their threat gets high enough to Dow, that will drop my neutrality to 0 for Dow on Nat China as soon as it looks like they're losing? I tried raising threat on both of them in one game, but the LS cost was too high:

"If you chase 2 rabbits, you will lose them both!" :)

The other annoyance with my previous game was that no one would trade coal to me, so I ran out and spent months of having to tweak my economy every day as it spasmed between 11 and 12 IC, inexplicably dropped consumer goods to the point where dissent would build, etc. Eventually Japan started trading energy, but not until early '38 (Marco Polo happened in May '38) after I'd been on 0 energy for 6 months or more. :-( I was even tempted to accept USSR's offer of joining Comintern just for the possibility of a trade, but wasn't sure if it was even possible given the lack of a common border?

Comm China is hard! Maybe one more go tonight...
 

marxianTJ

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You cannot get coal from anybody. MAYBE Nat Chi will have some, but otherwise, that's just part of playing Comm Chi, as your laws increase. You can manage it by putting a bit too much IC into both supplies and CG, then when the hit comes, it won't reduce you to dissent gaining levels.
There is quite the coal shortage in Asia.
You can't trade with the USSR because you're land locked - that's why it's essential to get Sinkiang at some point.

When playing as Com Chi I go for the lamo method of just putting all my LS into spy production whenever I so happen to need spies.

Say day 1-20 only spies get like 20 built up + 10. Then whenever I get to 0 in the pool, build up 20 more using full LS investment. It's lame, but your actual LS investment in slowly building units over time would have to be fairly substantial. Instead, I'll just be a few days late on everything - not like it matters you can't really research that much anyways - you'll rely on some other eventual allied power for tech, or tech theft, for the bulk of your tech - once Nat Chi is down, or once you've taken Xibei and Sinkiang..
 

Major Thom

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Better game tonight, thanks for the help.
Concentrated on increasing threat in Nat China and Xibei with full LS in spies when needed to keep them both at 10. Marco Polo fired in late '37 and Nat China crumpled in a matter of weeks. Unfortunately, I still couldn't get my neutrality low enough to take advantage and the Japanese cut me off again. This time I'd also been raising threat on Xibei, however, so managed to DOW them a month or two after Nat China had ceded their coast to Japan and quickly defeated them. I was expecting my neutrality to drop again when I annexed Xibei so I could DOW Sinkiang or Tibet, but it didn't :-(
So now I've thrown another 10 spies in both Sinkiang and Tibet but after 2 months I haven't even raised their threat by 0.01, what gives?
 

Lynx190

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Problem there is, Sinkiang is Comintern-aligned, just like you (not sure about Tibet, but I think they might be slightly on the Comintern side of the triangle) unlike the rest of the Chinese states that are Axis- or Allied-aligned. So it makes it virtually impossible to raise threat on them, you'd have to rely on lowering your effective neutrality via NatChi (although if Japan cuts you off, lack of border with NatChi might cause threat generation on them to slow to a crawl as well). Raising threat on Japan would certainly work, but it would cost a ton of spies, especially if they've had all this time to build up spy defense.
 

lunfa_reo

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Here is an excellent let's play Communist China (in very hard IIRC) by BarrosRodrigues. If I recall he manages to unify China and defeat Japan (can't remember what's next though, but I think it's better this way so as not to spoil it :p )

I highly recommend it!
 

Major Thom

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Thanks for the recommendation, phew that's a lot of YouTube videos! Going to need a lot of popcorn :)
Thanks also to lynx, raising threat on Japan made my neutrality plummet in just a couple of months, just what was needed! Now it's time to work out how to take on Nat China (after Sinkiang and Tibet have been a subdued of course). Some options:

1. Try and build up some more INF and militia (assuming that reduced-size Nat China is comparable to increased-size comm China, is it?) then wage a standard river-by-river/encircle & destroy/race for VP's type of war.

2. Wait for Nat China & Japan's cease-fire to expire in '41 ish (2.5 years away) and see if Japan will attack them again and create a backstab opportunity.

3. Join Comintern and take on Nat China with a very powerful ally :) Would AI USSR be helpful at all? I'm assuming since they would attack through my territory that any gains would be mine and not USSR's? I'm thinking this could drive Nat China towards the allies and set up a 3 way conflict of epic proportions which may or may not go well?!

Choices, choices...
 

Major Thom

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China is unified! After several false starts I managed to take out Nat China tonight, but it was a close run thing! Due to some excellent tech stealing I had managed to build a couple of divisions of motorised infantry, so decided to try and rush for Nat China's VP's. Having already taken Xibei, Sinkiang and Tibet, I DOW Yunnan to keep the wartime laws which gave me comparable IC to Nat China, but still very low LS, so waiting too long would only increase Nat China's lead technologically. So I went for a spring offensive in '41, rushed east for the pair of VP cities whilst my MTN troops headed south towards Yunnan. Taking all but the 2 coastal VP's and the one on the Yunnan border brought their unity to within 0.3 of surrendering but I was completely surrounded and exhausted with Nat China bringing in fresh divisions all the time. I had 10 free spies, threw them in to lower unity and just managed it as the VP's looked like being taken back, phew!

I feel like I've learned tons during this process, (mostly thanks to you guys on the forum) and I was wanting to update the wiki with some lessons learned. I know there are no new contributors allowed still, so is there another strategy wiki that people use?

Also, does anyone have any tips for a unified comm China to do next? Japan is still way too powerful with double the number of divisions that I have just on our border. I dread to think what they must have elsewhere and how advanced they must be! Some initial ideas:

1. Join Comintern (it's early '42 and they're holding up against Germany (just) but aren't at war with Japan yet) and DOW in the hope that Japan will have to spread too thinly to cover both fronts. If I join Comintern and DOW Japan, will USSR also go to war?

2. Stay neutral, build up and wait for USA (now joined the allies) to start to turn the tide, then backstab Japan when they're down! Problem is, the Pacific war will mostly be naval, so they might not weaken their mainland force until late on when the home islands are under threat? Could be a long wait...

3. Nope, that's it unless anyone can think of anything else?
 

marxianTJ

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Usually, your best bet is to join the Comintern, just to avoid your belligerence forcing you into a war with Japan (they can randomly attack you sometimes - especially if you leave a lot of the coast or your border open to them). The Japanese AI will then leave you alone, and you can send some divisions to help set everything up for the USSR.

Then by around 43-44 you should have been able to build up a fairly sizable... something. You can either focus on building a solid land-based army and a TON of INFRA, or you could built a mix of infra, land units, and junk ships (destroyers and transports). You don't need anything big - just destroyers and transports. Lots of them.

Then you can declare war on Japan - once they declare on the USA, and you let them spread out, taking out their holdings in China shouldn't be *that* challenging - but you'll need to be mindful of your coast. Then, if you've built a junk fleet, you should be able to get *something* eventually to the Japanese home islands (which should be lightly defended). Once you start taking out various parts of the home islands, Japan will immediately collapse. However, If you *do* take out Japan, don't release them as a puppet - the game goes a little crazy sometimes, and also they'll get big bunches of your territory (usually). So you'll just have to occupy them. If you don't build a junk fleet, just focus on protecting your coast and reconquering Asia, and wait for the US (or potentially the USSR) to end the war. You'll want to wait until Germany is mostly gone though - or the USSR AI may end up getting itself crushed.