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Surgünoglu

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Originally posted by Morpheus506
Hm... Communist Hawaii?

I've thought about it. Dictatorships are often wonderful ways to catch up technologically if not ideologically. (I say catch up rather than modernize because communism, while radical, has still not proven very innovative.) But Russia and China, two prime examples, had a lot of resources. Hawaii did not. Modernization required commerce, and without a major state to protect tiny communist states, it wouldn't happen. So without some comintern to help out a Cuba-style Hawaii...
 

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The player could manufacture a comintern if need be, as long as they were playing as a communist country.
 

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But you must agree that it took Russia to make a comintern. If Albania was the first communist nation, who would care? Who's going to be aided by Albania? Who would stand behind Albania?

Just like democracy was an experiment before America, communism needed an example, too. Only a self-sufficient state would have the clout to form its own regime, and then an International. Hawaii needed outside support/interference.
 

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Bah, now I'm going to make a communist Hawaii and a comintern just to spite you all!:p
 

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Originally posted by Morpheus506
Bah, now I'm going to make a communist Hawaii and a comintern just to spite you all!:p

Hey, I want a communist Hawaii, too, man. Well, any independent Hawaii is a cool one, really, but anyway, I was just nitpicking.

Either way, we must have communist options. Even if the game says we're being idiots for doing it, it is an idiocy I want to be free to commit. And in effect, impose on all my citizens. Ha.
 

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Originally posted by Surgünoglu
Hey, I want a communist Hawaii, too, man. Well, any independent Hawaii is a cool one, really, but anyway, I was just nitpicking.

Either way, we must have communist options. Even if the game says we're being idiots for doing it, it is an idiocy I want to be free to commit. And in effect, impose on all my citizens. Ha.

Spoken like a true communist.
 

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It's communistic to want your own freedom so much that you deny the rights of others?

Where do you live?

Either way, I was being sarcastic. The reason I want communism in the game so bad is because half the fun of a video game is fantasy cruelty to other humans completely innocent of wrong-doing. It would be evil in our world. Communism in Victoria would be like Grand Theft Auto for political science majors.
 

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Originally posted by Surgünoglu
It's communistic to want your own freedom so much that you deny the rights of others?

Where do you live?

Either way, I was being sarcastic. The reason I want communism in the game so bad is because half the fun of a video game is fantasy cruelty to other humans completely innocent of wrong-doing. It would be evil in our world. Communism in Victoria would be like Grand Theft Auto for political science majors.

I was being sarcastic. I though the whole impression of, "I want the freedom to impose my will on my citizen's even if it's insane" sounded very communistic to me. But it was entirely a jest. Meant to put a smiley.

I live in Alabama.
 

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Okay, cool. I was just wondering where you left because if communists are the only people there who want their freedoms at others' expense, I'm moving. At least, that's the way it is in my area of Florida. "Left, right? Who cares? I'm important and you suck!" is the way of things, it seems.

But aside from that off-topic, cool. I can't wait to dress my country up in Mao suits and make them learn my life and live by my example. Cults of personality rule, as long as you're the person.
 

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Originally posted by Surgünoglu
Okay, cool. I was just wondering where you left because if communists are the only people there who want their freedoms at others' expense, I'm moving. At least, that's the way it is in my area of Florida. "Left, right? Who cares? I'm important and you suck!" is the way of things, it seems.

But aside from that off-topic, cool. I can't wait to dress my country up in Mao suits and make them learn my life and live by my example. Cults of personality rule, as long as you're the person.

Not sure what you mean, but ok.
 

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I misunderstood you. I had said that I demanded my freedom to deny others their freedoms. You said I spoke like a true communist. I responded that it was a human issue, not simply a plank of a communist platform, and explained how things are in my region.

Of course the whole thing doesn't matter, because it's an explanation of a misunderstanding.

As for the Mao suits and cult stuff, just commie fun.
 

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Originally posted by Surgünoglu
But you must agree that it took Russia to make a comintern. If Albania was the first communist nation, who would care? Who's going to be aided by Albania? Who would stand behind Albania?

Just like democracy was an experiment before America, communism needed an example, too. Only a self-sufficient state would have the clout to form its own regime, and then an International. Hawaii needed outside support/interference.
I think any major power could form a comintern, depending on the circumstances. Had France managed to go communist it would have been just as capable of forming a communist alliance bloc.
 

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Originally posted by Surgünoglu
Yes. Major. Not Hawaii or Albania, for example. All revolutionary ideologies need examples and, yet more important, defenders of the faith.
Exactly. It's been the same for any major ideology for the past century or three. Lots of good ideas from this thread, thanks Surgünoglu.
 

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No problem. I'm just glad other people are thinking about the same things I am.

Liked your post in "first country you're going to play." That's definitely an option for me. Probably within the first five games I'll play as a dark alternate history Ottoman Empire. Can you imagine a communist, industrialized Arabia? You think the dismantling the Ottoman Empire in real life made a problem for the rest of the world? Just imagine the time bomb newly independent nationalistic militant communist Islam would be!
 

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completely agree Surgünoglu

And we should all remember that social democratic (communist, if you will) movements in the era of this game don't have to be modeled on the Stalinist state, so these comments about 'narrow-mindedness' are completely off the mark IMHO.
 

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Originally posted by joel
completely agree Surgünoglu

And we should all remember that social democratic (communist, if you will) movements in the era of this game don't have to be modeled on the Stalinist state, so these comments about 'narrow-mindedness' are completely off the mark IMHO.

All right comrade trotzikst ;) I have the impression that some people here is a little confused. Many people speak about communism and thinks to stalinism. First, socialism in a stand alone rural and poor country like Russia was an heresy for Marx and for Lenin too. Always they imagined an interantionalist revolution. we can collectivize poverty, we can colletcivize only the wealth. The result of this Stalin choise was not communism, but an authoritarian system of state capitalism. But we are discussing about an early age (1830-1920). Second. If fighting for mass right, fighting for universal vote, fighting for social laws, fighting for a workers republic is 'narrowmindedness, then I'm proud to be narrowmindedness. Third historic categories of EU2 doesn't work in Victoria age. Mercantilism? It's not an economic system of this era. Aristocary and plutocracy? the same speech. I hope (and I'm pretty sure) the developpers know that and will create a game with different bases.

Proud to be communist (and to hate Stalin :D)

Depaz
 

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Now I don't want to get into a lefty-schismatic rant here, but we should clarify.

Yes, Russia was not what Marx wanted. Lenin only did it because he was Russian. Russia was large and agricultural, communism calls for a small industrialized state.

Yes, communist principle calls for a world revolution. Trotsky continued that vein of though while Stalin, and later Mao, perpetuated the revolution in one country theory. Such a break is fundamental to all revolutionaries, including democrats, I might add.

Stalin practiced state capitalism like China does today because that's the only practical way communism works--state-determined economics. That's why communism always fails--it doesn't get rid of capitalism. It only shifts its center.

Agreed, communist revolutionaries weren't narrowminded, even if resulting governments were. Look at Russia. Same old social taboos, new package.

But then you say that historic divisions from EUII don't matter in Victoria. True, mercantilism didn't exist like it did in the 1400s, but rather changed names. What we once called mercantilism we now call economic statism. It's the same thing. When slight, it's Taiwan. When bad, it's Nazi Germany. But it's all the same--business by and for the state, not the individual.

Also, aristocracy and plutocracy were very important to Victoria's timeframe. In EUII we saw the rise of the plutocrats--money-based power, the bourgeois--at the expense of blood and aristocracy. In this game we'll see the plutocrats win. New rich, venture capitalists, robber barons, even humble middle class--all plutocracy, not aristocracy. These two terms are very important. Maybe not today, but the 1800s? Very much so.
 

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Originally posted by Surgünoglu
Yes, Russia was not what Marx wanted. Lenin only did it because he was Russian. Russia was large and agricultural, communism calls for a small industrialized state.

A few comments (after this, continue with the thread, I don't wanna hijack it...)

1. Lenin didn't do it because he was Russian. He saw it as a logic step: the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. In the capitalist world, Russia was one of these weakest links. Take out Russia and the Revolution will envelop the world... or so the theory went. ;)

2. Lenin didn't want Soviet Russia to stand alone, because Lenin thought this wouldn't be possible. Russia NEEDED the world revolution. Without it, the communinst experiment would fail. It was Stalin who came up with "socialism in one country" (it was based on Lenin, only where Lenin saw this as a temporary state while awaiting the world revolution, Stalin came to see it as a goal in itself).
 

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A few comments...

Depaz wrote:
All right comrade trotzikst

Heh. You spotted me;)

To follow on with other comments in this thread, I think that the crucial element of socialism in the era Victoria covers, is it's class nature, & it'sinternationalism . The whole 'Socialism in one country' debate is not relevant to the timeframe being covered, and as has been mentioned, was only ever a stop gap measure in Lenin's fight to bring about a wider revolution.

And as for this comment:
Now I don't want to get into a lefty-schismatic rant here...
Why on earth not? I could start by de-bunking this whole 'state capitalism' nonsense ;)