"Communism" gameplay system literally doesnt work

[Crysys]

Currently in my game the year is 1926 and for several years I have successfully created a Cooperative Ownership/Council Republic Soviet Union. I was really hyped about roleplaying as a expansionist Soviet Union that wants to liberate the workers of Europe. But literally no gameplay system right now in the game works. What I mean by that?

1. All my puppets including ones that I puppeted after becoming The Soviet Union like Finland are Monarchies. And I cant do anything about that. It completely ruins the immersion of the game.

2. The Private Construction system literally doesnt work. Only Capitalists are investing and building buildings and seeing how they as a class got gutted when I adopted Cooperate Ownership nothing is being built. From 150 buildings at once to barely 9-11 buildings being built. If this is working as intended and Farmers and Shopkeepers arent supposed to privately build please write it in the UI. I like the Private Construction system and this is why I went with the Cooperative Ownership law because i thought the system will still work, not be gutted like this. If it is supposed to be this bad then just remove it from the game and only allow Command Economy because there is almost no difference.

3. As a Cooperative Ownership/Council Republic Soviet Union somehow I am unable to regime change any country. Somehow I am too ideologically similar to monarchic Kaissereich Germany. This is absurd.

As someone that only played with the Laissez Faire/Liberal meta I wanted to roleplay and feel like a communist state bent on changing the world. Instead I am a failed country where capitalists somehow are the only people building buildings with monarchies as puppets that is too close ideologically to a Kaissereich to liberate their workers. This is really sad. This is absurd.

 

[bombaleyloo]

Change Regime does not work since 1.2. What surprises me most from a roleplaying point of view is the absurdly high standard of living in communist countries. Were the closed borders in the USSR meant to protect the paradise life of the proletarian dictatorship from the hordes of hungry Europeans?

 

[Hurpyderp]

Change Regime does not work since 1.2. What surprises me most from a roleplaying point of view is the absurdly high standard of living in communist countries. Were the closed borders in the USSR meant to protect the paradise life of the proletarian dictatorship from the hordes of hungry Europeans?

I don't find that too unrealistic, since corruption isn't modelled yet in-game. Also socialist/cooperative ownership in Vic 3 are always "true" (nobody would call the ussr socialist as described in the theories of the socialist avantgarde). And in theory an evenly distributed wealth pool with enough supply to fulfill needs and luxury demands would lead to a very high standard of living.

 

[Crysys]

Change Regime does not work since 1.2. What surprises me most from a roleplaying point of view is the absurdly high standard of living in communist countries. Were the closed borders in the USSR meant to protect the paradise life of the proletarian dictatorship from the hordes of hungry Europeans?

Makes sense. Do you know anything about why only capitalists can finance private construction in Cooperative Ownership? And yes its clear the communism model ingame is fantasy and has nothing to do with real life. But Its still dissapointing to see so many systems that dont work togheter or at all and ruins the roleplaying aspect.

 

[Hurpyderp]

Makes sense. Do you know anything about why only capitalists can finance private construction in Cooperative Ownership? And yes its clear the communism model ingame is fantasy and has nothing to do with real life. But Its still dissapointing to see so many systems that dont work togheter or at all and ruins the roleplaying aspect.

Yes ofc, was referring to the point about the high sol in in-game socialist economies

 

[bombaleyloo]

I don't find that too unrealistic, since corruption isn't modelled yet in-game. Also socialist/cooperative ownership in Vic 3 are always "true" (nobody would call the ussr socialist as described in the theories of the socialist avantgarde). And in theory an evenly distributed wealth pool with enough supply to fulfill needs and luxury demands would lead to a very high standard of living.

Victoria 3 is not a fantasy strategy game. It is about the real society of the 19th century. I don't care what the theorists wrote. If Charles Fourier wrote that people can live 80,000 years, this does not mean that the game should have zero mortality. We all know perfectly well what a communist dictatorship is and which countries should be a model for this in the game.

 

[Hurpyderp]

Victoria 3 is not a fantasy strategy game. It is about the real society of the 19th century. I don't care what the theorists wrote. If Charles Fourier wrote that people can live 80,000 years, this does not mean that the game should have zero mortality. We all know perfectly well what a communist dictatorship is and which countries should be a model for this in the game.

But its also a game with a set of laws. And if your laws say you are a cooperative owned council republic then you are not a communist dictatorship.

 

[bombaleyloo]

But its also a game with a set of laws. And if your laws say you are a cooperative owned council republic then you are not a communist dictatorship.

Exactly. These are fantasy laws that prevent you from enjoying the game as a simulator of something real.

 

[vyshan]

But its also a game with a set of laws. And if your laws say you are a cooperative owned council republic then you are not a communist dictatorship.

It should be possible to have both more democratic communist governments and more authoritarian governments. Countries following Communism as their guiding ideology should be allowed to become authoritarian like the USSR but they should also be allowed to be democratic like the USSR was not.

The nature of the first major country to go communist should impact things. Of course it would help if there were more ideologies and perhaps IGs to reflect the famous socialist splitting in this era. Where you have vanguardists, reformists, Left Coms, etc.

 

[maxirage]

Communism is a revolutionary ideology, meaning it requires the removal of the current ruling class. It being established using democratic means is not possible, as that would require the ruling class to sit idly by as all their wealth and power is removed (as currently happens when you enact council republic) which is absurd. You can certainly reform to make the state more socialist, but going full commie using democratic means is innately unrealistic.

 

[grommile]

We all know perfectly well what a communist dictatorship is

A Communist-with-a-big-C (i.e. vanguardist state-socialist) dictatorship is correctly represented in the game by Autocratic + Planned Economy with your other laws being tilted towards socialist values rather than fascist or reactionary ones.

The game lets you do that.

 

[Ir0nSlug]

2. The Private Construction system literally doesnt work. Only Capitalists are investing and building buildings and seeing how they as a class got gutted when I adopted Cooperate Ownership nothing is being built. From 150 buildings at once to barely 9-11 buildings being built. If this is working as intended and Farmers and Shopkeepers arent supposed to privately build please write it in the UI. I like the Private Construction system and this is why I went with the Cooperative Ownership law because i thought the system will still work, not be gutted like this. If it is supposed to be this bad then just remove it from the game and only allow Command Economy because there is almost no difference.

Well, the difference is that as the spirit of the nation, you obviously can't decide what capitalist build, but are obviously also the spirit of all your countries cooperatives.

 

[GrounchoVilla]

Change Regime does not work since 1.2. What surprises me most from a roleplaying point of view is the absurdly high standard of living in communist countries. Were the closed borders in the USSR meant to protect the paradise life of the proletarian dictatorship from the hordes of hungry Europeans?

Russia was deeply impoverished before the Bolsheviks took power roflmao do people think Russians only became poor in 1918? Cooperative states model improving living standards which occur when workers have more money due to not being exploited and the positive feedback loops this creates. But you can still mismanage your economy, overspend on the military, and suffer under various economic embargoes too if you really want to recreate the Soviet bloc experience

 

[bombaleyloo]

Russia was deeply impoverished before the Bolsheviks took power roflmao do people think Russians only became poor in 1918? Cooperative states model improving living standards which occur when workers have more money due to not being exploited and the positive feedback loops this creates. But you can still mismanage your economy, overspend on the military, and suffer under various economic embargoes too if you really want to recreate the Soviet bloc experience

Were the borders closed in Russia before the Bolsheviks? Were cooperatives banned in Russia before the Bolsheviks? Can you name at least one developed or developing country where cooperatives are prohibited? Can you recommend me a cooperative in some developed country where I can get x2 salary as a software developer?

 

[Ir0nSlug]

Were the borders closed in Russia before the Bolsheviks? Were cooperatives banned in Russia before the Bolsheviks? Can you name at least one developed or developing country where cooperatives are prohibited? Can you recommend me a cooperative in some developed country where I can get x2 salary as a software developer?

What does it have to do with anything? Someone already answered you that to represent USSR in the game (and with its limitation) you'd have to go Autocracy/Oligarchy + Command Economy.

You are right that there was no actual country with Council Republic/Coop, are you trying to say that it should be removed as an option? I have no real opinion myself about this, but I doubt you'll gather much support.

 

[maxirage]

I think his point is that real countries adopting communism doesn't make their standard of living go up like it does in-game. V3 has a very charitable view of communism that is based on theory rather than practice.

 

[Ir0nSlug]

I think his point is that real countries adopting communism doesn't make their standard of living go up like it does in-game. V3 has a very charitable view of communism that is based on theory rather than practice.

Oh, ok, but is there any real country that adopted something resembling Council Republic/Coop? We should make it clearer what "communist" combo we are talking about, CR/Coop or Auto/Planned.

Certainly, any kind of communism, be it ussr-style or theoric-style, should have extremely dire diplomatic consequences, like embargo and such. I'm not sure the game has all the tools to represent this right now, like empowering foreign political group, etc... or that it would have any real impact on a decently played country.

 

[Shinkuro Yukinari]

A Communist-with-a-big-C (i.e. vanguardist state-socialist) dictatorship is correctly represented in the game by Autocratic + Planned Economy with your other laws being tilted towards socialist values rather than fascist or reactionary ones.

The game lets you do that.

I see that reference, great bloke

I don't find that too unrealistic, since corruption isn't modelled yet in-game. Also socialist/cooperative ownership in Vic 3 are always "true" (nobody would call the ussr socialist as described in the theories of the socialist avantgarde). And in theory an evenly distributed wealth pool with enough supply to fulfill needs and luxury demands would lead to a very high standard of living.

USSR was socialist. The notion that it wasn't is not seriously considered beyond socialist circles that consider the vast majority of socialisms that existed as not socialist, and that often do not consider the historical circumstances in which the USSR was born. In Vic3 terms it would be olligarchy and planned economy

Oh, ok, but is there any real country that adopted something resembling Council Republic/Coop? We should make it clearer what "communist" combo we are talking about, CR/Coop or Auto/Planned.

Certainly, any kind of communism, be it ussr-style or theoric-style, should have extremely dire diplomatic consequences, like embargo and such. I'm not sure the game has all the tools to represent this right now, like empowering foreign political group, etc... or that it would have any real impact on a decently played country.

Yugoslavia was that to some extent, lots of enterprises with coop ownership in a semi-market system rather than subject to a plan. The AI in general should be a lot more keen to embargo socialist countries and view them in a hostile manner depending on government system and possibility of cooperation and markets, but i presume the devs will implement a foreign investment system before doing that.

 

[bombaleyloo]

What does it have to do with anything? Someone already answered you that to represent USSR in the game (and with its limitation) you'd have to go Autocracy/Oligarchy + Command Economy.

You are right that there was no actual country with Council Republic/Coop, are you trying to say that it should be removed as an option? I have no real opinion myself about this, but I doubt you'll gather much support.

1. I agree that the USSR(and ALL other communist countries that have ever existed) can be modeled using Autocracy/Oligarchy + Command Economy. And unlike the fantasy cooperative model, we know how this command economy works. This is an incredibly inefficient economy with a huge waste of natural resources, absurd management decisions and a demotivated workforce. This is the economic model that has turned the largest grain exporter into an importer. This is an economic model in which there was a constant shortage of some consumer goods. What do we see in the game? The command economy is simply the most efficient without question. You can keep consumer prices low, maintain a huge army, and still grow faster than anyone with any other economic model.
2. Cooperative Ownership should have serious limitations to have any resemblance to reality. For example, a productivity penalty or a building size limit.

 

[Rabid]

Yugoslavia was that to some extent, lots of enterprises with coop ownership in a semi-market system rather than subject to a plan. The AI in general should be a lot more keen to embargo socialist countries and view them in a hostile manner depending on government system and possibility of cooperation and markets, but i presume the devs will implement a foreign investment system before doing that.

This already happens in 1.2, non-socialist states will get very upset with you when you switch to council republic, won't join your customs union voluntarily, will gain aggressive attitude towards and rival you, etc.