• Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

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Oct 6, 2005
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Anomaly said:
I strongly disagree.
It's beyond me how Paradox managed to create AI as poor as the AI in the DOS version from 2 decades ago.
I strongly disagree. The 1985 computer version had a better AI than the Paradox version or the Microprose version of the 90s
 

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Well that stinks

Well that stinks.

It is really sad when a game gets into the hands of a company that - for whatever reason - can't really do it justice.

It took years for the rights to a Spider-man movie to be freed up to be done properly. (Of course when the Fantastic Four movie was finally made it was *not* done properly.) We will try to remain patient and be glad that we can have wasted $50 on the game.
 

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heagarty said:
I had actually thought about trying to start up a PBEM game here, to liven things up. I don't know what the reaction would be, but an active PBEM community here in this forum WOULD be nice service for all of us that bought the game.

Any interest?
Good idea.
 

David E. Cohen

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Are you guys talking about a "real" PBEM game, i.e., not using Paradox's Diplomacy server and software, but rather just playing with a GM (and maybe using the sandbox mode to try things out, if even that)?

If so, I don't know that Paradox would appreciate the use of its forum for that purpose, so you might want to ask a Paradoxian before a game is started.
 

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David E. Cohen said:
Are you guys talking about a "real" PBEM game, i.e., not using Paradox's Diplomacy server and software, but rather just playing with a GM (and maybe using the sandbox mode to try things out, if even that)?

If so, I don't know that Paradox would appreciate the use of its forum for that purpose, so you might want to ask a Paradoxian before a game is started.
But if they did use this forum for that purpose, it would be the ultimate statement of what Paradox could have, would have, should have done.... :wacko:

But I doubt Paradox would appreciate, or allow it. Mind you they may be so busy with EUIII that noone would really notice or care. Heagarty has also just livened up the old PBEM threads, so maybe it is a go.
 

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Stretch33 said:
But if they did use this forum for that purpose, it would be the ultimate statement of what Paradox could have, would have, should have done.... :wacko:

But I doubt Paradox would appreciate, or allow it. Mind you they may be so busy with EUIII that noone would really notice or care. Heagarty has also just livened up the old PBEM threads, so maybe it is a go.

It smacks a bit of dancing on a grave. :^(
 

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Well, my argument is that running PBEM games, using the Sand Box mode of the game as a Judge, might generate good will and interest from the forum users.


Seems to me this would at least get screen shots of the game and keep some people checking into the forum. Can Paradox object to that?

But, if so..... one more thing off my otherwise busy calendar.


I will probably move this discussion to its own thread, to keep this "Communications" thread cleaner.

Please start a new thread to follow up on any PBEM discussion. :)
 

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Stretch33 said:
Nicely said. :rofl:
I don't find it funny at all. A pity, actually.
 

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David E. Cohen said:
I don't find it funny at all. A pity, actually.
At first I was Angry
then I was dissapointed,
then it was pity for what could have been.
And now it is just funny.

Just see it as a game of Diplomacy. Paradox told us their grand plan, and got us bought into it. It was partially new, and partially based on established thinking. Once we were all fully committed, we got stabbed. Now we can all sulk about it, or we can laugh, but thats how the game is played. Paradox soloed with 18 centers and won the game.
 

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Josephus I said:
Graphically, I think most of us agree, that 3-D graphics for Dip was highly unnecessary...but if it was an experiment for future games then all power to them. I'd like to see what EU3 looks like; and hopefully they've learned to make better noises then the orgasmic grunts. :wacko:
I agree - both on the graphics and the "orgasmic grunts". :)
 

unmerged(59558)

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Sign of the times

G'Kar said:
I agree - both on the graphics and the "orgasmic grunts". :)
- I agree too. I'd say unnecessary, needlessly computer power intensive and in the case of the grunts, just plain silly....

The last Diplomacy board game I was able to get seven adults to stay put for a full afternoon and evening was... hmmm on my birthday in West Berlin of all places in 1984.

Since then economic "reform" :wacko: has left the people I know (including me) too time impoverished for this board game (though I applaud the community that keeps it alive in vivo!).

As a teenager in the early 70’s I used to have great Diplomacy parties in Sydney. But those were VERY different times. Times when people had TIME….

Sitting in the corner in my sutteran flat in 1984 Berlin was my dear Commodore 64 and sensing this would likely be the last time I might be able to enjoy this with people face to face a I looked forward to it being applied to computer.

Well the 1985 graphics were TOO horrible (remember the CGI [or whatever] old plastic blue and pink?) and other clunky aspects of the graphics?

It's obviously a game that needed decent graphics, but never the grossly over the top variety the developer went for here. Why the 3D fleet "anchor" icon is almost impossible to see from top down! A major back step from the old "ship shape" icon.

What is worse is that all the unnecessary graphics seem now to be why the game is so high end intensive in it's "Basic requirements"?

Before purchasing the game I had been going by some reviews that put all this obligatory grunt down to the “needs of the advanced AI.”

As a result the game will run on my high end machine, but I can’t play it over the LAN with my son’s still respectable PIII 500Mhz system in the next room. (I could get over the lack of direct human player to player comms with the mobile phone or shouting to him) :rofl:

Why have so many great games of the PC era had shoddy multiplayer function? More social atomization in action? :confused:

Well this Diplomacy Mk3 fiasco is just a sign of our times: flashy show comes before what’s inside. Corporation’s hording greatness in dark vaults while mediocrity is pushed on us instead.

While I mourn for Diplomacy, and hope against hope for something better there, I am HIGHLY impressed by Hearts of Iron II – Doomsday which I’ve just bought off EBAY. Here’s hoping for something better for the strategic gamer…. I was up half last night reading the first few chapters of the handbook.

I love that you can roam around a REAL and accurately portrayed world, (with RESTRAINED graphics – even to the “typewriter face” labels for the provinces) with countries populated by meticulously researched civil and military figures. They got my own Australian wartime administration so correct.

Well we’ll see - so far four stars Paradox!

But people who make these games should reflect on how much enjoyment the relatively simpler (and less time/learning curve/management intensive) game environment of Diplomacy or even “Axis and Allies” (another great game rushed to market rattling with bugs) can bring when done right.

The computer is definitely a necessary No 2 platform for the great game of Diplomacy in this time impoverished age.
 
Last edited:

David E. Cohen

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Well, for the time impoverished, there is always email Dip.
 

unmerged(59558)

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A solid new start for computer Diplomacy?

Yeah email Diplomacy.

When I used to play Diplomacy by Post & Telegram I often wondered what Special Branch in Britain or other Geheimnis Deinsten would make of many of the communications.

Now post 9/11! :confused:

Well I'm sure sanity will prevail..........

But back to the subject of Diplomacy computer software. I was just checking out the reviews of the edition I missed: Microprose's 1995 effort.

Anyone interested have a look at: http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/software.htm

I was seriously thinking of tracking down an old disk of this game until I read these. The criticisms seem hauntingly familiar and I'm not going to bother now. Even the anchor for the navies!

The present offering then does seem to be a slight step forward - except that the "bloatware" aspect has also been just as increased... :(

If only a software producer could get the graphics and guts of an all human play version done right: i.e. with elegant but not CRAY crashing graphics and reliable multiplayer LAN coding...

wouldn't that be a good START - after all these false starts with the time & resources spent on AIs that turn out to be so dissapointing?

The AIs could then be handled by Mods - done by the company or freelance computer gurus or best of all BOTH (since there ARE apparently quite a few AI strategies that can be tried). There are thousands of brilliant programmers around the net - if the project included Russia/Eastern Europe especially.

I suspect the company would make a good return on the original platform IF they got it right and properly debugged it.

Open sourcing the AI might seem like a "radical" business model - but hey we are in the 21st Century... Hmmm...
 

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Oct 6, 2005
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Gordon Bennett said:
Yeah email Diplomacy.
Open sourcing the AI might seem like a "radical" business model - but hey we are in the 21st Century... Hmmm...
You hit the nail on the head.

If you are interested in AI, look here.
http://www.daide.org.uk/index.xml

There is nothing I would love more than Hasbro implementing a graphical package and incorporating DAIDE compatible AIs.

They could reap the profits from sales of the front end application, and the Diplomacy community could program the AI's to their hearts content.

Diplomacy AI's could even compete on servers and have a ladder ranking of their own to encourage development. A yearly competition with a cash prize would help keep the community very alive and active.

Hasbro would not 'own' the AIs, but why would they need to. Their only concern would be selling the front end application which is the Diplomacy TM they own anyway. They would need to think of it, the same as Microsoft selling 'excel'. The spread sheet is the front-end, and the actual contents are user made and owned.

The beauty of it is that they also would not have to provide support for AI's. Nor would they get such a negative outlash for continually supplying bad AIs.

AI's would be posted and shared.

Cash Prize Payout (to continue the dream)
Year 1: 1st=$1000, 2nd=$500, 3rd=$250
...
Year 6: 1st=$6000, 2nd=$3000, 3rd=$1500

Total Financial Committment = ~$37000

I would actually like a 10 year program which would be just under $100,000 committment. :D

I am sure this would be quite cheap in comparison to the costs Paradox incurred making their terribly bad AI.

Stretch.
 

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Stretch33 said:
I am sure this would be quite cheap in comparison to the costs Paradox incurred making their terribly bad AI.
Perhaps it would be cheap in comparison, but I wonder just how much profit Hasbro brings in from Dip. My guess is if you suggested your contest ideas to them, the response would not be positive.
 

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David E. Cohen said:
Perhaps it would be cheap in comparison, but I wonder just how much profit Hasbro brings in from Dip. My guess is if you suggested your contest ideas to them, the response would not be positive.

Yes, obviously prize money would need to be scaled to business potential. And maybe you could just take a zero off of each amount.

But good games do not die so quickly. And the reason this version of Diplomacy has died so quickly is bad AI, and lack of a PBEM style game.

The idea is to come up with a new business model where the trademark of 'diplomacy' can be effectively leveraged to make profits. These regular failed attempts at making a traditional version of the game have not worked, and never will.

Diplomacy needs quality AI to succeed. A traditional business venture can never justify the amount of time required to develop such an AI. The only solution I can see is leveraging the trademark as a front end, and open sourcing the AI, and providing some incentive to develop good AI.

There are a lot of people willing to dedicate a tremendous amount of time to develop a good AI for the game. Especially if there are prizes on the line.

That type of business model completely needs a game like Diplomacy in its staying ability, and diplomacy needs that type of business model due to its huge reliance on AI.

Sometimes people need to think outside the box.
 

David E. Cohen

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You are asking *Hasbro* to think outside the box? ROFL!

I promise, if I win the lottery, I will buy Diplomacy from Hasbro. Unless that happens, I am not optimistic.
 
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Hi David, Hi Stretch,

Nice to see you both still drop by :) :rolleyes:

IIRC Hasbro is owned by ATARI?

ATARI do not give a f%$%#&&%^%^#@@%^Y&**%&^ about games or gamers.
They are 100% profit driven.

They own the licence(s) on a few of my favourite games and are effectively blocking any further development. :(

We just have to wait for them to go Bankrupt.
 

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czar1111 said:
Hi David, Hi Stretch,

Nice to see you both still drop by :) :rolleyes:
Yes, I still occasionally haunt the Forum of Broken Dreams.