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unmerged(34319)

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Diplomacy goes on....

The Diplomacy mainstream hobby is going and going...
there will be the face to face tournaments every month, almost every week
somewhere in the world...there will be the World Diplomacy Championships in Berlin this summer and then next summer in Vancouver British Columbia...
there are the thousands of players playing play by email games with lag time in many different languages- English-French-Spainish-Czech- etc...
there are web based games as well as auto-judge games...

The missteps by the development group are there for history but as this is the third attempt at a commercial PC game, I suspect that there will be a fourth attempt...the hobby is entrenched, determined and deserving of support...now if we can only get a development team that will listen to the hobby. :D

PS... I do not read the PI release as blaming any of their partners in this.
There are many reasons that PC games are not patched further most of the time it is because of code issues and not commercial or hobby interest.
 

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Edi said:
PS... I do not read the PI release as blaming any of their partners in this.
Quite so. A careful reading of Mr. Bergqvist's message reveals that absolutely *nothing* was actually said. I'm sure he has a future in politics, if he wishes ;^)



Edi said:
There are many reasons that PC games are not patched further most of the time it is because of code issues and not commercial or hobby interest.
Blame the programmers. Good idea. ;^)
 

unmerged(49207)

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Edi said:
The missteps by the development group are there for history but as this is the third attempt at a commercial PC game, I suspect that there will be a fourth attempt...the hobby is entrenched, determined and deserving of support...now if we can only get a development team that will listen to the hobby. :D
The hobby will develop the computer version itself, it may take long time, but it is the only way forward. :eek:)

A commercial venture will never give it the attention it needs.
 

unmerged(34319)

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Diplomacy computer

we are fairly close on a few things...
the French Web site www.18centres.com has a graphical interface for
play by email with different time lags. Unfortunately it can only play the game to 1907 and scores things according to the C-Diplo scoring system which is center count based...and everything including the map is in French.

There is the DAIDE project run by David Norman that is trying to develop an AI/.

What is needed is a melding of what is out there with
1. a reasonable computer graphic interface that may allow direct typing like the French web site
2. an automatic adjudication program ((many of these are out there))
3. an ability for an AI to take over the place of a missed move by a player.
4. an ability for an AI to take over a Dropped position by a player.
5. an automatic recording of the results
6. a variable menu to schedule changes in deadlines, victory conditions and
7. an ability to handle voting to end a game on line under a variable basis of criterion.
 

unmerged(4271)

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Josephus I said:
Oh well...lesson learned. Be careful about pre ordering games in the future and take the pre-game hype press releases with a grain of Swedish salt.

Question...is the Metaserver still going to be active (not that there's been anyone there since January).

You know the only function missing from this game was a PBEM option. With a PBEM option seven of us could just get together and have some fun. I know PBEM can be played without the game, but it would have been preferable to DipJudge, and you don't need a GM.

It was fun while it lasted. I had a few enjoyable games, and we've all enjoyed getting spanked by Edi. At least I've learned a few things from him.

So....who's up for an old fashioned Paradox PBEM game? Czar? State? Heag?

As I understand it, YES, the Meta-Server will continue to be supported.

I provided some suggested improvements for the Meta-Server, but I don't think this will be implemented. But the service will continue.

I had actually thought about trying to start up a PBEM game here, to liven things up. I don't know what the reaction would be, but an active PBEM community here in this forum WOULD be nice service for all of us that bought the game.

Any interest?
 

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Well I'm up for it, Heag.
 

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Josephus I said:
So....who's up for an old fashioned Paradox PBEM game? Czar? State? Heag?
Maybe... But, really, I don't want Italy again. :D;) Or Russia for that matter. Give me blood and guts with Germany or Austria with either a quick exit, or grand results. Or one of my two comfort countries, England and France. Turkey... Ok, better than Russia.

But seriously, and not necessarily relevant to Diplomacy, my first thought when I heard that Paradox was doing Diplomacy, was that they found a cool way of funding research on a new platform and ai-player interaction that would improve, future, more typical Paradox games. Not that I figured there was any Machiavellian thing going on here, since I know Paradox notables love Diplomacy, but that they could use the opportunity of Diplomacy in a longer term game development sense - like developing an ai-friendly diplomatic scheme for games, along with a graphic negotiation language to allow humans and ai to *negotiate*. Sadly, I don't think they suceeded, but they surely learned leasons...

There have now been three commercial failures with computer Diplomacy. I agree with Edi, that DAIDE has great prospects, but in the meantime, the Diplomacy community does thrive, in its PBM and face to face form. :)
 
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State Machine said:
But seriously, and not necessarily relevant to Diplomacy, my first thought when I heard that Paradox was doing Diplomacy, was that they found a cool way of funding research on a new platform and ai-player interaction that would improve, future, more typical Paradox games. Not that I figured there was any Machiavellian thing going on here, since I know Paradox notables love Diplomacy, but that they could use the opportunity of Diplomacy in a longer term game development sense...
It occurred to me as well that Diplomacy was a good way for Paradox to test and become fimilar with their new 3D engine. There is some evidence (IMHO) that they did just that.
The shame is that a few people from Paradox had reputations hurt by the whole thing due to things that were said on the boards here and in interviews elsewhere.
In some ways it may be a good thing long term however (lessons learnt - and not just by Paradox either :rolleyes: )



Now, I have a radical suggestion:
How about making the game available for free? (Downloadable)

WHAT!!!??? (I hear you all scream)
OK think about it.
Those of us that have already brought the game have paid our money. Being upset if it is or isn't made available is not going to help us money wise.

More players are needed to make the Metaserver worthwhile.

With a bigger player base Paradox might be encouraged to patch again sometime in the distant future? (I can dream :rolleyes: )

The commercial life of a game is only 6 months IIRC and the statement here was made before then. This suggests to me that there will be no new production runs. I wonder how many units were produced? What percentage are sold? When they are all sold there will be no further profits to be made - so why not release it for free?

It might actually create some goodwill with customers?

Just a thought.


As for PBEM games here - yes I am interested, but not for the next month.
 

unmerged(49207)

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czar1111 said:
It occurred to me as well that Diplomacy was a good way for Paradox to test and become fimilar with their new 3D engine. There is some evidence (IMHO) that they did just that.
The shame is that a few people from Paradox had reputations hurt by the whole thing due to things that were said on the boards here and in interviews elsewhere.
In some ways it may be a good thing long term however (lessons learnt - and not just by Paradox either :rolleyes: )



Now, I have a radical suggestion:
How about making the game available for free? (Downloadable)

WHAT!!!??? (I hear you all scream)
OK think about it.
Those of us that have already brought the game have paid our money. Being upset if it is or isn't made available is not going to help us money wise.

More players are needed to make the Metaserver worthwhile.

With a bigger player base Paradox might be encouraged to patch again sometime in the distant future? (I can dream :rolleyes: )

The commercial life of a game is only 6 months IIRC and the statement here was made before then. This suggests to me that there will be no new production runs. I wonder how many units were produced? What percentage are sold? When they are all sold there will be no further profits to be made - so why not release it for free?

It might actually create some goodwill with customers?

Just a thought.


As for PBEM games here - yes I am interested, but not for the next month.
If they ever offer it for free, it will likely come stuffed in the box of another paradox game.

The only way this would work is if they thought enough of a community eventually would develop that would warrant a Diplomacy II, and maybe an oppurtunity to recapture some money.

But if the corporate 'arrangements' are really at issue here, I am sure Paradox wants nothing more than to leave this game behind. I am sure Hasbro will never accept free downloading of the game.

As someone who has purchased the game, I really don't care if they give it away for free. My money is long gone. I now know never to purchase a Paradox game until it has been out for minimum 5-6 months. I think a lot of people have learned that lesson. They will need to reestablish their credibility as supporting company. It can not longer be taken for granted.

Edi:
I encourage you to post your ideas on the DAIDE forum, for others, not just David to review. David is focussed solely on developing the environment for AI development. The existing server system can easily be turned into exactly what you are looking for. There are other very experience programmers there who can code this type of interface like 'maginot' 'brainshell' RT servers using the DAIDE project as the basis.
 

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Stretch33 said:
Edi:
I encourage you to post your ideas on the DAIDE forum, for others, not just David to review. David is focussed solely on developing the environment for AI development. The existing server system can easily be turned into exactly what you are looking for. There are other very experience programmers there who can code this type of interface like 'maginot' 'brainshell' RT servers using the DAIDE project as the basis.
Before anyone asks, that is *not* me, but probably David *Norman*. LOL
 

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I agree with State Machine that Diplomacy was a quick and possibly commercially viable way for P'Dox to experiment with a 3-D engine and with a form of simple graphic notation to communicate with the AI.

I actually liked the graphical language used to communicate with the AI; and hopefully they can expand that in future games. Their fault, at first, was not allowing human players to communicate with each other in a chat feature. It's one thing to ask the AI to help you defeat Germany. When talking to a human ally, though, you normally need to be a bit more persuasive and offer him some kind of deal..as in "Look, Germany's gonna stab you next turn, if you join me now, we can preempt that."

That was impossible to do with graphical notation, and thankfully P'Dox did at least listen to the community and come out with a chat function.

Graphically, I think most of us agree, that 3-D graphics for Dip was highly unnecessary...but if it was an experiment for future games then all power to them. I'd like to see what EU3 looks like; and hopefully they've learned to make better noises then the orgasmic grunts. :wacko:

Whatever, I guess...let's move on from this.

If you guys are up for organizing a PBEM game let me know. Actually it would be fun to see State Machine vs. Edi...two different styles of players, but both are some of the best I've seen.
 

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czar1111 said:
Now, I have a radical suggestion:
How about making the game available for free? (Downloadable)

WHAT!!!??? (I hear you all scream)
OK think about it.
Those of us that have already brought the game have paid our money. Being upset if it is or isn't made available is not going to help us money wise.

More players are needed to make the Metaserver worthwhile.

With a bigger player base Paradox might be encouraged to patch again sometime in the distant future? (I can dream :rolleyes: )
I don't know of the contract Paradox made with whoever holds the rights to Diplomacy. But I'd presume a normal contract would be Paradox paying a certain sum of money to the owner of the rights on each copy distributed. In such a case it wouldn't matter if they give it for free or sell it, they would have to pay anyway. Wouldn't make any sense for them in such a case to release it for free.
 

Bakunin

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czar1111 said:
Now, I have a radical suggestion:
How about making the game available for free? (Downloadable)


QUOTE]


The game quite possibly become abandonware within 9-12 months. Unless of course the dreaded ATARI is the shadowy organization hinted at in the recent Paradox release. Then it will never be abandoned. ATARI has a tendency to snap up good licenses, ruin them, and then sit on the IP forever so no one else can ever fix it.
 

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czar1111 said:
Yes.
The day ATARI eventually drive themselves into bankruptcy there will be many good games whos licenses will be rescued from the clutches of ATARI.

It's sad that Diplomacy is one of those games.
Well, who knows, Atari may achieve satori, LOL, but I won't be holding my breath. Atari isn't autonomous anyway. It is a subsidiary of Infogrames, so there may be many layers of corporate crap to deal with.
 
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David E. Cohen said:
Well, who knows, Atari may achieve satori, LOL, but I won't be holding my breath. Atari isn't autonomous anyway. It is a subsidiary of Infogrames, so there may be many layers of corporate crap to deal with.
Yeah, In Australia the ATARI/Infogrames/Ozisoft(Spelling?) group completely control the market.
Many (most) of the so called 'independent' magazines are also controlled by them.

But, ATARI is posting bad financials lately as I understand it?
Might have something to do with gamers getting tired of their crap?
 

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Diplomacy is really pretty much what I expected with one major exception – multiplayer. Call me naïve, but I assumed that if counter strike could offer 10,000 servers anytime I logged on, then Paradox/Diplomacy would have at least a couple dozen… or at least a dozen… heck, even one would do!

I think despite the weak AI, if at least one server could be supported 24/7 on the meta-server, then this game would eventually catch on in the multiplayer mode. Hard to believe that given worldwide sales this isn’t possible.
 

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Diplomacy just doesn't translate too well as a computer game, period. Its a shame, but essentially an unavoidable truth. I'm barely surprised at all.
 

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Figaro123 said:
Diplomacy just doesn't translate too well as a computer game, period. Its a shame, but essentially an unavoidable truth. I'm barely surprised at all.
I strongly disagree.
The principal difference between email/adjudicator game and a computer version of diplomacy is the real-time effect -- you must have 7 players ready and able to play for several consecutive hours.
That's where AI comes in -- to fill in for real players who join, leave, get disconnected or quit an ongoing game.
It's beyond me how Paradox managed to create AI as poor as the AI in the DOS version from 2 decades ago.