Commanders list, the winners and the losers

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Nicolas I

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But if they're minors, I don't see that it's a problem they're at a disadvantage.

Having a disadvantage based on history or game balance is understandable, but they seem to have eradicated some countries leaders, not downsizing every country to fit in the new system.

Being able to play the minors is a feature that greatly adds replayability to the game. I'm not talking about Luxembourg or Albania world conquest, just being able to resist a bit more or tip the balance for one side or the other.
 

Ricox

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If that is not balancing I don't know what is balancing for you ? I though balancing is pointless ?

If balancing is pointless, does it mean you want an unbalanced game ? Or that game balance should only be considered after release ?

PS I will stop here as we seem the have very different and incompatible visions.

Not as much as incompatible visions as you simply not understanding what I'm writing. Please point to the part of my post that made you think I wanted an unbalanced game.

I'll just repeat for the third or fourth time, and now using the language that someone else used that is shorter and more to the point - Hearts of Iron III is not a benchmark we should be using. Hearts of Iron IV is a separate game, it's a sequel, but the mechanics differ too greatly for any comparisons to have any value. That's what I'm getting at. We should be looking at IV as its own game separarely from any previous itiretations. The number of generals that existed in Hearts of Iron III is, for all purposes and intents, completely irrelevant for this game.

We should look at the numbers and see - mhm, I don't think 2 leaders is going to be enough for this country considering its historical power, it seems it should get more as it would have at least 3 fronts to take care of and a rather competent army (example statement). The number of generals in the prequel is completely, absolutely irrelevant.

You're also failing to realize that disadvantage is the entire purpose... minors should NOT be on the same military footing as the major powers. They SHOULD have LESS GENERALS so that they are AT A DISADVANTAGE ON PURPOSE.

I complained about HoI III lacking generals for minors because the game was too reliant on having leaders for every combat unit/level & lacking any possibility of creating new generals. This is not a problem in HoI IV as generic generals can be created.
 
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Nicolas I

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...I complained about HoI III lacking generals for minors because the game was too reliant on having leaders for every combat unit/level & lacking any possibility of creating new generals. This is not a problem in HoI IV as generic generals can be created.

Generic generals cannot be created at will.

They cost precious political power that you will miss somewhere else if you have to create generals that - normally - historically - believably - game purposely - you should have had.


Take ROC China with historically 4,4 millions soldiers, they get 4 general - with their war beginning in 1937.
While the UK with 3,5 million men gets 75 generals.

Why the smaller british army needs 18 times more generals, their bureaucratic tradition ?

Take Greece with 430 000 men and 1 general. At the same ratio, UK would have only 8 generals.
 
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Chukada

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I don't know where to begin.

China should have more generals, and they should be generals that were generals in 1937, not these junior officers who didn't become field marshals or generals until the Chinese civil war in 1946. It kind of breaks immersion when fighting Japan in 37' that my army is being led by someone in their early 30's, or late 20's.

Like you play as Communist China, and Mao, a guy who starts the game at the age of 43, looks like he is 65 years old, and he looks pretty fat considering he JUST finished walking the long march. LOL

Guess the Long March is now the Brisk Walk.
 
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Nicolas I

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...You're also failing to realize that disadvantage is the entire purpose... minors should NOT be on the same military footing as the major powers. They SHOULD have LESS GENERALS so that they are AT A DISADVANTAGE ON PURPOSE...

Instead of SHOUTING about something I agree with, maybe you could read my posts where I agree about a disadvantage, about less generals for minors.

Yes, it's normal that some countries have a disadvantage if it was historically the case...

Having a disadvantage based on history or game balance is understandable...


Where I disagree is when the disadvantage is 100 for 1 or 50 for 1. So I disagree about the overwhelming magnitude of the disadvantage.
 
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Viper1989

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Many were very surprised when a list of commanders was added to the wiki today about how few commanders some countries have. This even when taking into account that the new system requires a lot less commanders.

HOI4 list: http://www.hoi4wiki.com/List_of_commanders

HOI3 list: http://www.hoi3wiki.com/Command_structure

Though I know this list may not be definitive and comprehensive, I made a quick comparison (not so quick in fact) between the numbers of commanders on this wiki list when compared to the HOI3 list. This counts land officers and admirals (as there is no air commanders on the wiki list). I only counted HOI3 leaders available when the game begins.

The score goes from 35% to 1%, with an average of 15%.

I don't understand why they didn't chose to enforce the same percentage for all countries, with some minor adjustments, instead of so huge disparities ?

Here are the winners and the losers, in % of commanders vs HOI3. Four majors are in the lead, with France and surprisingly Germany lagging behind Canada and Australia. Greece, China and Spain are the great losers and by far.

USA 35%
Japan 31%
UK 29%
USSR 24% -- or 35% (less purged ones - though the HOI4 list may also be subject to purge)
Canada 21%
Australia 17%
France 15%
Germany 15%
Argentina 12%
Italy 11%
Poland 6%
Finland 5%
Greece 3%
China 2%
Spain 1% -- more will probably become available when the SCW begins

Interesting. Canada has John Montague, Thomas Victor Anderson, Charles Foulkes, H.T. Baillie-Grohman and Leonard W. Murray.

Montague was a staff officer in charge of administration and chief of staff at Canada Military Headquarters. Had no combat command I'm aware of and is not even in Hoi3

Baillie-Grohman not available until 1938 in HoI3.
Foulkes not until 1943.

That leaves Anderson and Murray who did have combat commands and are available at game start.

I think a better percentage would be (2 in HoI4 divided by 24 in HoI3) 8.33%. Since you are only counting leaders at the start of the game I should do the same.


Let's look at Germany:

To start we have 21:

Albert Kesselring, Erich von Manstein, Erwin von Witzleben, Ewald von Kleist, von Bock, von Küchler, Gotthard Heinrici, Heinz Guderian, Hermann Hoth, Johannes Blaskowitz, Maximilian von Weichs, Paul Hausser,
Sepp Dietrich, Wilhelm List, Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb, Gerd von Rundstedt, Günther von Kluge, Alfred Saalwächter, Erich Raeder, Wilhelm Marschall

Throughout the game in HoI3:

1937 - Georg-Hans Reinhardt, Günther Lütjens,
1938 - Ernst-Eberhard Hell, Kurt Student, Walter Model,
1939 - Alfred Jodl, Erwin Rommel, Friedrich Paulus, Karl Dönitz
1941 - Walter Krüger,
1942 - Friedrich Schulz, Hasso von Manteuffel,

Hermann Boehm is not in HoI3.

In HoI4 you have 21 leaders at game start
In Hoi3 you have 231 leaders at game start.

That is 9%.

Your original numbers are extremely flawed as you include all of Hoi4's leaders but only a small fraction of Hoi3's leaders.


Let's take a look at EVERYONE.

Canada:

HoI4 - 5
Hoi3 - 104
Including Montague - 4.8%
Without Montague - 3.8%

Germany:

HoI4 - 34
Hoi3 - 838
Including Boehm - 4%
Without Boehm - 3.9%

Using proper data, those numbers look pretty even to me.
 
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Many were very surprised when a list of commanders was added to the wiki today about how few commanders some countries have. This even when taking into account that the new system requires a lot less commanders.

HOI4 list: http://www.hoi4wiki.com/List_of_commanders

HOI3 list: http://www.hoi3wiki.com/Command_structure

Though I know this list may not be definitive and comprehensive, I made a quick comparison (not so quick in fact) between the numbers of commanders on this wiki list when compared to the HOI3 list. This counts land officers and admirals (as there is no air commanders on the wiki list). I only counted HOI3 leaders available when the game begins.

The score goes from 35% to 1%, with an average of 15%.

I don't understand why they didn't chose to enforce the same percentage for all countries, with some minor adjustments, instead of so huge disparities ?

Here are the winners and the losers, in % of commanders vs HOI3. Four majors are in the lead, with France and surprisingly Germany lagging behind Canada and Australia. Greece, China and Spain are the great losers and by far.

USA 35%
Japan 31%
UK 29%
USSR 24% -- or 35% (less purged ones - though the HOI4 list may also be subject to purge)
Canada 21%
Australia 17%
France 15%
Germany 15%
Argentina 12%
Italy 11%
Poland 6%
Finland 5%
Greece 3%
China 2%
Spain 1% -- more will probably become available when the SCW begins

You know what I'm on a roll here let's keep going:

Afghanistan -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 21
4.7%

Albania -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 27
3.7%

Argentina -
HoI4 - 3
Hoi3 - 62
4.8%

Australia -
HoI4 - 5
Hoi3 - 82
6%

Austria -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 61
1.6%

Belgium -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 41
4.8%

Brazil -
HoI4 - 3
Hoi3 - 79
3.8%

Bulgaria -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 79
2.5%

Chile -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 52
1.9%

China -
HoI4 - 4
Hoi3 - 367
1%

Colombia -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 35
2.8%

Czechoslovakia -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 43
2.3%

Denmark -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 26
3.8%

Ethiopia -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 31
3.2%

Finland -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 67
3%

France -
HoI4 - 11
Hoi3 - 184
6%

Greece -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 52
1.9%

Hungary -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 175
1.1%

Iran -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 32
3%

Italy -
HoI4 - 10
Hoi3 - 242
4%

Japan -
HoI4 - 42
Hoi3 - 308
13.6%

Mexico -
HoI4 - 3
Hoi3 - 45
6.7%

Netherlands -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 52
3.8%

New Zealand -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 53
3.7%

Norway -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 49
4%

Communist China -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 63
1.2%

Poland -
HoI4 - 6
Hoi3 - 197
3%

Portugal -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 80
1.2%

Romania -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 110
1.8%

South Africa -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 40
5%

Soviet Union -
HoI4 - 39
Hoi3 - 666
5.6%

Sweden -
HoI4 - 3
Hoi3 - 37
8.1%

Switzerland -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 40
2.5%

Turkey -
HoI4 - 3
Hoi3 - 49
6.1%

United Kingdom -
HoI4 - 33
Hoi3 - 431
7.6%

United States -
HoI4 - 30
Hoi3 - 484
6.2%

Yugoslavia -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 53
3.8%

By my complete data Japan has the most at 13.6%. Fact is Japan is the only one with more than 10%. The average is only 3.97%.

USA 6.2%
UK 7.6%
USSR 5.6%
Canada 4.8%
Australia 6%
France 6%
Germany 4%
Argentina 4.8%
Italy 4%
Poland 3%
Finland 3%
Greece 1.9%
China 1%

China did get screwed in the leaderboards but the 7 majors are either at or above the average.
 
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Ricox

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Instead of SHOUTING about something I agree with, maybe you could read my posts where I agree about a disadvantage, about less generals for minors.






Where I disagree is when the disadvantage is 100 for 1 or 50 for 1. So I disagree about the overwhelming magnitude of the disadvantage.

It's really hard having a discussion with you when you misinterpret nearly everything I write.

It's not SHOUTING, it's called EMPHASIZING. I'm not a lunatic, I don't shout to my computer monitor while writing a forum post.

You know what I'm on a roll here let's keep going:

Afghanistan -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 21
4.7%

Albania -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 27
3.7%

Argentina -
HoI4 - 3
Hoi3 - 62
4.8%

Australia -
HoI4 - 5
Hoi3 - 82
6%

Austria -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 61
1.6%

Belgium -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 41
4.8%

Brazil -
HoI4 - 3
Hoi3 - 79
3.8%

Bulgaria -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 79
2.5%

Chile -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 52
1.9%

China -
HoI4 - 4
Hoi3 - 367
1%

Colombia -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 35
2.8%

Czechoslovakia -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 43
2.3%

Denmark -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 26
3.8%

Ethiopia -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 31
3.2%

Finland -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 67
3%

France -
HoI4 - 11
Hoi3 - 184
6%

Greece -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 52
1.9%

Hungary -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 175
1.1%

Iran -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 32
3%

Italy -
HoI4 - 10
Hoi3 - 242
4%

Japan -
HoI4 - 42
Hoi3 - 308
13.6%

Mexico -
HoI4 - 3
Hoi3 - 45
6.7%

Netherlands -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 52
3.8%

New Zealand -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 53
3.7%

Norway -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 49
4%

Communist China -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 63
1.2%

Poland -
HoI4 - 6
Hoi3 - 197
3%

Portugal -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 80
1.2%

Romania -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 110
1.8%

South Africa -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 40
5%

Soviet Union -
HoI4 - 39
Hoi3 - 666
5.6%

Sweden -
HoI4 - 3
Hoi3 - 37
8.1%

Switzerland -
HoI4 - 1
Hoi3 - 40
2.5%

Turkey -
HoI4 - 3
Hoi3 - 49
6.1%

United Kingdom -
HoI4 - 33
Hoi3 - 431
7.6%

United States -
HoI4 - 30
Hoi3 - 484
6.2%

Yugoslavia -
HoI4 - 2
Hoi3 - 53
3.8%

By my complete data Japan has the most at 13.6%. Fact is Japan is the only one with more than 10%. The average is only 3.97%.

USA 6.2%
UK 7.6%
USSR 5.6%
Canada 4.8%
Australia 6%
France 6%
Germany 4%
Argentina 4.8%
Italy 4%
Poland 3%
Finland 3%
Greece 1.9%
China 1%

China did get screwed in the leaderboards but the 7 majors are either at or above the average.

Please stop with the bloody comparisons with HoI III, a game which is so irrelevant to HoI IV's general system I don't know what you guys were thinking when you thought it was a good benchmark point.

I AM NOT DENYING THAT HEARTS OF IRON IV SEEMS TO LACK GENERALS, ACCORDING TO THAT LIST, but stop comparing it to a game that just doesn't matter at this point. It's 7 years old with completely different planned mechanics & systems.
 

Nicolas I

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...

Let's look at Germany:

In HoI4 you have 21 leaders at game start
In Hoi3 you have 231 leaders at game start.

That is 9%.

Your original numbers are extremely flawed as you include all of Hoi4's leaders but only a small fraction of Hoi3's leaders.
...

It's sure that if we don't use the same data we don't reach the same result. I made a quick comparison, you took the time to make a more comprehensive picture

And your number crunching surely would give another interesting perspective by including all HOi3 leaders (if only you also included all HOI4 leaders).

I would find it very interesting if I had no doubts about which numbers you used. As in your first exemple they are wrong.

From the wikis :

In HOI4 Germany has 27 generals at game start + 6 admirals = 33 leaders at game start.
In HOI3 Germany has 174 generals at game start + 45 admirals = 219 leaders at game start.

That is 15 % as I said. If you start your calculations with 36% missing HOI4 leaders and 5% more HOI3 leaders, sure we will not have the same results.
I have not used air leaders as they didn't appeared in the HOI4 wiki when I made the calculation, nor at this minute.

EDIT: With a quick look, your HOI4 numbers seems more right in your second list than for Germany.

EDIT 2: Your numbers seems to indicate the situation is less worst than I thought. Still some countries have from 3 times to 6 times more leaders than others when comparing with HOi3.

I don't take HOI3 as the absolute threshold, it was just a basis for a quick comparison.
 
Last edited:

Nicolas I

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It's really hard having a discussion with you when you misinterpret nearly everything I write. It's not SHOUTING, it's called EMPHASIZING. I'm not a lunatic, I don't shout to my computer monitor while writing a forum post...

It's a convention that writing in capitals letters on forums is equivalent to shouting, a Field marshal should know that.

One word it may be emphasizing, whole sentences it's shouting.

I suggest you read this article in The New Republic: https://newrepublic.com/article/117390/netiquette-capitalization-how-caps-became-code-yelling

Or this about Netiquette: http://netiquette.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_number_2_-_Do_not_use_all_caps
 
Last edited:

Rick Middleton

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Mark Clark with a skill ranking of 4 stabs me straight in the heart. How can such a skill rating be justified for someone who both faced a Congressional hearing for his part in the Battle of Rapido River, and whose decision to march on Rome instead of defeating his enemy was called "as militarily stupid as it was insubordinate" by Carlo d'Este? Clark was a self-serving twit. If ever there was a general deserving a 0 or 1 skill level, it's him.
 
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Lockerius

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I know Canada's only a minor, but seriously, how do you miss Harry Crerar or Guy Simonds??

-----------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Crerar

Henry Duncan Graham "Harry" CrerarCH, CB, DSO, CD, PC (April 28, 1888 – April 1, 1965) was a senior officer of the Canadian Army, and became the country's "leading field commander" in the Second World War, where he commanded the First Canadian Army.
-----------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Simonds

Lieutenant-GeneralGuy Granville SimondsCC, CB, CBE, DSO, CD (April 23, 1903–May 15, 1974) was a senior officer of the Canadian Army who commanded the 1st Canadian Infantry Division and II Canadian Corps during World War II. He served as acting commander of the First Canadian Army, leading the Allied forces to victory in the Battle of the Scheldt in late 1944. In 1951 he was appointed Chief of the General Staff, the most senior member of the Canadian Army.

-------------------------------------------
John Montague served as Quartermaster General and then Judge Advocate General.....sorry? Those aren't exactly major military or field commands.

Thomas Victor Anderson never left Canada during the war. Never had a European command at any level, and he retired in '43.

Charles Foulkes was a corps commander by the end of the war, so not a Field Marshall or equivalent. Sure he should be on this list, but not in place of Simonds or Crerar.
-------------------------------------------





OK, I get it, it's a lot of work to do serious research at this level. But hey, that's what you got us for. We can do this kind of work for you.
 
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Viper1989

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It's sure that if we don't use the same data we don't reach the same result. I made a quick comparison, you took the time to make a more comprehensive picture

And your number crunching surely would give another interesting perspective by including all HOi3 leaders (if only you also included all HOI4 leaders).

I would find it very interesting if I had no doubts about which numbers you used. As in your first exemple they are wrong.

From the wikis :

In HOI4 Germany has 27 generals at game start + 6 admirals = 33 leaders at game start.
In HOI3 Germany has 174 generals at game start + 45 admirals = 219 leaders at game start.

That is 15 % as I said. If you start your calculations with 36% missing HOI4 leaders and 5% more HOI3 leaders, sure we will not have the same results.
I have not used air leaders as they didn't appeared in the HOI4 wiki when I made the calculation, nor at this minute.

EDIT: With a quick look, your HOI4 numbers seems more right in your second list than for Germany.

EDIT 2: Your numbers seems to indicate the situation is less worst than I thought. Still some countries have from 3 times to 6 times more leaders than others when comparing with HOi3.

I don't take HOI3 as the absolute threshold, it was just a basis for a quick comparison.

Where are these 6 extra admirals coming from?
 

Nicolas I

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Where are these 6 extra admirals coming from?

They are not extra, they are on the HOI4 wiki page: http://www.hoi4wiki.com/List_of_commanders

Alfred Saalwächter, Erich Räder, Günther Lütjens, Hermann Boehm, Karl Dönitz, Wilhelm Marschall.

I made it clear that my calculations included generals+admirals.

Now if someone don't use the same data (which is OK), it surely doesn't get the same result.
 

Viper1989

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