Command, shouldn't be: "the short-term command each division's battle plan"

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fredgiblet

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I don't see anything at all wrong with this feature...in fact I think it's exactly the compromise we needed. One thing I hated about HOI3 was the all-or-nothing approach to AI control, it was a nightmare switching between micro management and AI control.

"The VP is right there...take it...take it!...TAKE IT!..TAKE IT YOU &%(!!!! GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!"
*Detaches unit from hierarchy, pushes it to the undefended VP while fuming.*
*Unit takes VP.*
*Reattach unit to random corp because I didn't memorize which one it was in.*

That's not even covering having your entire front rearrange itself after the breakthrough to Danzig, so instead of actually attacking they're just moving along around the front.

Also I don't usually play the UK or USA simply because in both cases there's a TON of naval stuff that has to be handled constantly that's annoying to manage.

The new AI management is going to be gorious.

I think some of you guys are misunderstanding what is meant by planning here.

Think for a moment abstractly, it's not as if officers down the chain have a magical battle map that must be followed exactly to benefit... It's a general plan, not an exact blueprint down to the last soldier.

It's preparing for an operation in every way--materially and training etc--not just drawing routes on the map. It represents actual supply and combat readiness for given objectives. It would be a nice feature even if there was no AI control involved.

Think Operation Barbarossa...that plan was not followed exactly, but did preparing for that exact plan help the Germans attack? Yes!

This. This exactly. "Planning" includes things like setting up forward supply depots and logistical trains, providing instructions on what roads are best for your units and where known enemy strongpoints are. Making sure your units are in shape, supplied, equipped and at the maximum possible combat readiness and so forth.
 
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Denkt

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From my simple knowledge planing bonus increase as long as your division is idle at the controlled borders of an foreign nonallied country and decrease if the division
  • Not at the borders of an foreign nonallied country.
  • Are moving
  • Are fighting
Basically planing bonus is basically a second organization value for divisions on the offence and can be compared to entrencement for defensive divisions.
 
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Ostheim

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From my simple knowledge planing bonus increase as long as your division is idle at the controlled borders of an foreign nonallied country and decrease if the division
  • Not at the borders of an foreign nonallied country.
  • Are moving
  • Are fighting
Basically planing bonus is basically a second organization value for divisions on the offence and can be compared to entrencement for defensive divisions.

Has it been confirmed yet if idle divisions will "Dig in" like past games?
 

Surimi

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Battle Plans do appear to be an automated slugfest between two competing AI with the certainty that the Player will need to intervene to give its own AI a clip on the back of the ear.

I think I asked this before from someone else but what do you consider to be the boring bits?

The useless and boring micro involved in just moving units is perhaps the whole point of the game, the favourable positioning of your forces is what allows you to gain victory and is not only crucial for the successful implementation of a Plan but it many cases the foundation of a Plan.

Let me put it this way.

A typical CK2 empire might have two or three separate armies to move. Generally, however, this number will actually go down during the game (assuming no blobbing into space) as supply limits increase due to tech.

In EU4, a really large empire with the right ideas might be able to support 5 free generals, plus an heir and a ruler. That means an effective maximum of seven armies which are going to be of any use in combat at all. Sure, you can split down to smaller forces, but doing so in order to gain a combat advantage is pointless.

Expecting the player to pause frequently and give movement orders to each of their armies in those games, or to be situationally aware enough to know roughly where all their armies are and when they need new orders is fine. It doesn't break the flow, and generally takes only a few seconds at most.

In a game where you have potentially hundreds of separate "armies" (or divisions in this case), that kind of situational awareness is not possible for most people. Even just giving basic orders like telling an army to get into position or launch an attack may take several minutes of the players time, during which they will be paused and clicking. Getting new troops to the front lines, again, requires the player to pause and spend several minutes clicking. Player errors, like having too many troops cross the same region and suffer attrition or forgetting to give orders to troops who have completed their current movement become almost inevitable, because human minds are not designed to simultaneously track and remember the position and status of hundreds of things at the same time. Computers, on the other hand, find that very easy. What they don't have is the kind of pattern recognition skills or complex judgement required to take advantage of opportunities or to exploit game mechanics, which is where human players excel.

You can talk about micro being the whole point of the game, but the vast majority of the moves the player will be microing are predictable, or have no great impact on the broad progression of the war. Making the player click through those movements every few seconds is pointless busywork which slows down the "flow" of the game while granting no real sense of achievement to the player. Letting the AI automate those movements allows the player to concentrate on areas where there are actual decisions to be made, where their influence can actually have a determinate effect and thus where they can be rewarded for being clever, which is ultimately the whole point and the reason people play games.
 
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fredgiblet

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I can't count how many times, just in the invasion of Poland, I thought I'd given orders to all my divisions, only to find out that one of them was left behind 2 provinces ago and needs to be brought barrelling back into the fray.

Honestly setting a plan and letting your generals execute it while occasionally giving them a prod in a different direction is a LOT more "GRAND strategy" to me than microing every single unit every step of the way.
 
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AddMinus

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I think some of you guys are misunderstanding what is meant by planning here.

Think for a moment abstractly, it's not as if officers down the chain have a magical battle map that must be followed exactly to benefit...It's a general plan to organize an operation, not an exact blueprint down to the last soldier.

It's preparing an operation in every way--materially and training etc--not just drawing routes on the map. It represents actual supply and combat readiness for given objectives. It would be a nice feature even if there was no AI control involved.

Think Operation Barbarossa...that plan was not followed exactly, but did preparing for that exact plan help the Germans attack? Yes!

This. This exactly. "Planning" includes things like setting up forward supply depots and logistical trains, providing instructions on what roads are best for your units and where known enemy strongpoints are. Making sure your units are in shape, supplied, equipped and at the maximum possible combat readiness and so forth.

Hmm, it does seem like I have a different idea about exactly what planning represents.

I was under the impression it was more about issuing strategic objectives, then my army leadership would decide the best roads / infrastructure to use and take into consideration things like enemy strongpoints.

Other things like supply depots and logistical trains as well combat readiness, I thought were represented by the supply system, organisation and the new training system.

However, I am very new to HOI in general and HOI4 specifically. In fact I've only completed one full game and although it was fun, controlling 200+ divisions was rather tedious. I was hoping the new system would run itself with only occasional intervention. Based on WWW, it seems like controlling all your divisons is by far the best way to increase your armies performance.

I would prefer for the majority of my force to operate by itself while I decided things like - where and when to focus my reserves or elite units, where to concentrate air support, ad hoc encirclements ext. The new system seems great for doing this and I think it is a massive improvement. I just don't think the micro-managment should always be the best option. Like I said losing the planning bonus seems like a good trade off for the advantages of micro-managment.

"Yes, I know you planned on using those developed roads and bypassing that enemy strongpoint, but I have decided that we have sufficient forces to take it and it will provide a good fall back point if the battle does turn against us."

"But.. but we have focussed our training on taking these open plains and a rapid advance."
 

Ostheim

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Hmm, it does seem like I h ave a different idea about exactly what planning represents.

I was under the impression it was more about issuing strategic objectives, then my army leadership would decide the best roads / infrastructure to use and take into consideration things like enemy strongpoints.

Other things like supply depots and logistical trains as well combat readiness, I thought were represented by the supply system, organisation and the new training system.

"..."

Like I said losing the planning bonus seems like a good trade off for the advantages of micro-managment.

"Yes, I know you planned on using those developed roads and bypassing that enemy strongpoint, but I have decided that we have sufficient forces to take it and it will provide a good fall back point if the battle does turn against us."

"But.. but we have focussed our training on taking these open plains and a rapid advance."

Divisions just sitting around without a battle plan but have high org seem ready, they probably are, but the question is "ready for what?" The troops are ready to fight, all supplied/equipped/trained...but are they supplied, equipped, and trained for a specific fight/objective? Are the officers ready and all the vehicles carrying enough fuel for the trek? That's the difference. It's one thing to be ready for a fight anytime anywhere, it's another to be ready for a particular fight with all the known variables.

Now being ready for a particular fight doesn't mean that as soon as you alter your plans or go in a different direction, all your specific preparations are void. Your material preparations should still provide some benefits, and in fact sticking 100% to the theoretical part of the plan is what might cause problems. You can turn a deeply flawed theoretical plan into a great one with a few tweaks, and your material preparations are still useful.

Example: I prepare to advance on Moscow, supplying and outfitting my troops with that objective in mind. Then I decide instead to finish off Leningrad by transferring some of those Moscow-front troops up north. Yes I'm going off-script but I still have all that stuff I brought with me and it's still helping my push on Leningrad. Not only that but the prep I did for the Moscow operation was good experience for my troops and officers, and should roll over to the next operation. Not a perfect example but you get the picture.

Edit: So that sort of caps my 'justification' of the battle plan prep bonus, now keep in mind I'm not 100% clear on how the game works in this regard. If you separate troops from a battle plan and they do lose the prep bonus, then ok that doesn't bother me, I can understand why. But if it sticks with those divisions at all, I can also understand why.
 
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Modestus

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Let me put it this way.

A typical CK2 empire might have two or three separate armies to move. Generally, however, this number will actually go down during the game (assuming no blobbing into space) as supply limits increase due to tech.

In EU4, a really large empire with the right ideas might be able to support 5 free generals, plus an heir and a ruler. That means an effective maximum of seven armies which are going to be of any use in combat at all. Sure, you can split down to smaller forces, but doing so in order to gain a combat advantage is pointless.

Expecting the player to pause frequently and give movement orders to each of their armies in those games, or to be situationally aware enough to know roughly where all their armies are and when they need new orders is fine. It doesn't break the flow, and generally takes only a few seconds at most.

In a game where you have potentially hundreds of separate "armies" (or divisions in this case), that kind of situational awareness is not possible for most people. Even just giving basic orders like telling an army to get into position or launch an attack may take several minutes of the players time, during which they will be paused and clicking. Getting new troops to the front lines, again, requires the player to pause and spend several minutes clicking. Player errors, like having too many troops cross the same region and suffer attrition or forgetting to give orders to troops who have completed their current movement become almost inevitable, because human minds are not designed to simultaneously track and remember the position and status of hundreds of things at the same time. Computers, on the other hand, find that very easy. What they don't have is the kind of pattern recognition skills or complex judgement required to take advantage of opportunities or to exploit game mechanics, which is where human players excel.

You can talk about micro being the whole point of the game, but the vast majority of the moves the player will be microing are predictable, or have no great impact on the broad progression of the war. Making the player click through those movements every few seconds is pointless busywork which slows down the "flow" of the game while granting no real sense of achievement to the player. Letting the AI automate those movements allows the player to concentrate on areas where there are actual decisions to be made, where their influence can actually have a determinate effect and thus where they can be rewarded for being clever, which is ultimately the whole point and the reason people play games.


It seems to me the exact opposite and that your situational awareness will need to be even greater in HOI IV.


The AI will move your Divisions as it pleases and while a Battle Plan will limit to a certain extent what the AI can do the moment the AI launches an offensive to the moment it reaches an offensive front line it is effectively out of the players control. It will engage with forces of its own choosing regardless if it can defeat them or not and the Player will need to be made aware of these actions as quickly as possible, there is a constant need for the player to clearly understand what the AI is actually doing so they can manually intervene if necessary.


I am beginning to think that people do not fully understand the limitations of the Battle Plan system and how easy it is to issue instructions that will get the AI to kill off your Divisions, something that is almost impossible to do in HOI III because the player is hands on and issuing those instructions directly.


The very first time the game was played by people outside of Paradox ( admittedly a long time ago) one of the issues that was raised was the lack of a clear understanding with what the AI was doing and that is not surprising because as you pointed out you will have hundreds of Divisions and most will be performing actions that the player did not directly order.


Even on the very first hour of launching an offensive you have no idea if the AI will attack a province directly in front, you just hope it will, we can assume that it will but we don’t actually know for sure if it will and that is a very worrying prospect.
 
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fredgiblet

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I highly doubt that they will fail to include an aggression meter in the Battle Planner. If they do that will be a problem, if they don't then that won't be terribly much of a problem.
 

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Without knowing what the bonus planning actually does, it is hard to judge what it should and should not effect.

Edit: So that sort of caps my 'justification' of the battle plan prep bonus, now keep in mind I'm not 100% clear on how the game works in this regard. If you separate troops from a battle plan and they do lose the prep bonus, then ok that doesn't bother me, I can understand why. But if it sticks with those divisions at all, I can also understand why.

I agree with this. Just personal preference to loose it.
 

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If you separate troops from a battle plan and they do lose the prep bonus, then ok that doesn't bother me, I can understand why. But if it sticks with those divisions at all, I can also understand why.
You don't separate them from the battle plan. The orders in the plan are given to an army, and you don't separate the Divs from the army. They are still in the army when you give them a manual order. You are hardly likely to give them an order which takes them out of the theater, or even out of the sector of the front where the army is. As soon as the manual order is complete, the Div goes back to following orders from the AI. It's part of the army throughout.
 
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You don't separate them from the battle plan. The orders in the plan are given to an army, and you don't separate the Divs from the army. They are still in the army when you give them a manual order. You are hardly likely to give them an order which takes them out of the theater, or even out of the sector of the front where the army is. As soon as the manual order is complete, the Div goes back to following orders from the AI. It's part of the army throughout.

That's what I thought but wasn't sure, sounds good IMO.
 

Modestus

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You don't separate them from the battle plan. The orders in the plan are given to an army, and you don't separate the Divs from the army. They are still in the army when you give them a manual order. You are hardly likely to give them an order which takes them out of the theater, or even out of the sector of the front where the army is. As soon as the manual order is complete, the Div goes back to following orders from the AI. It's part of the army throughout.

How does that work?



1\ If you give a manual order to a Division does the AI readjust its orders for the Divisions still under its control and position them differently?


2\ When is a manual order considered to be completed ? If you manually move a Division to Province X does the AI immediately take control again and move it somewhere else.


Seems to me that the idea that Divisions under manual control will automatically revert back to AI control when the AI considers an order to be completed is a recipe for a disaster and even more confusion.


I will assume that Paradox will change this and only allow the AI to take back control of a Division if the Player tells the AI to take back control.
 

fredgiblet

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I don't see it as a problem. You are, again, not likely to be sending them to another theater, or something like that. The feature is likely intended for when the human sees an opportunity the AI doesn't oe the AI misses something like a single province on the coast or something. If you're looking to make a permanent alteration to the plan you'll make a permanent alteration to the plan, you won't send a single division off to the side.
 

potski

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Seems to me that the idea that Divisions under manual control will automatically revert back to AI control when the AI considers an order to be completed is a recipe for a disaster and even more confusion.
Then remove them from the army completely, so they have no commander/battle plan. When they have moved where you want they will sit and wait for you to give another manual order. They won't move/attack, nor support any attacks by Divs in adjoining provinces, without your specific instructions. God forbid that they might do something useful while you are busy elsewhere.

There is nothing to stop you having 100% micro-management if that is what you want.
 

Surimi

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Even on the very first hour of launching an offensive you have no idea if the AI will attack a province directly in front, you just hope it will, we can assume that it will but we don’t actually know for sure if it will and that is a very worrying prospect.

You can check the movement path of every unit within a plan before the plan is executed. It doesn't even seem to be "AI control" in that sense, it is as the name suggests a predetermined plan which the AI will execute (presumably with some basic rules to prevent it doing stupid things like letting units rush ahead).

Regardless though. I don't see why, if you wanted control of everything, you couldn't just treat the plan as purely cosmetic. Wait for the planning bonus to build up, then just don't execute the plan (or delete it, if you want to be totally sure) and do everything manually yourself. Either way, it seems like the planning bonus will decay at the same rate so if you want to spend hours clicking away like a dolphin with tourettes there seems to be absolutely no disadvantage to doing so.
 
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FOARP

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And he is against the idea,believing that it goes the same way as in Hoi3.
(BTW I believe this to be Chinglish)

Looks like Japlish to me, and the name "Rising Sun" is not one a Chinese person is likely to pick :)
 

Modestus

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Then remove them from the army completely, so they have no commander/battle plan. When they have moved where you want they will sit and wait for you to give another manual order. They won't move/attack, nor support any attacks by Divs in adjoining provinces, without your specific instructions. God forbid that they might do something useful while you are busy elsewhere.

There is nothing to stop you having 100% micro-management if that is what you want.

Not sure what your on about there poski, you said as soon as the manual order is complete the Division will return to AI control I am saying that this is perhaps not a good idea because it effectively means that the AI decides when manual control is finished and not the player.


It would be much wiser to have the player order a Division to rejoin a Plan rather then having it happen automatically.
 
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Modestus

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You can check the movement path of every unit within a plan before the plan is executed. It doesn't even seem to be "AI control" in that sense, it is as the name suggests a predetermined plan which the AI will execute (presumably with some basic rules to prevent it doing stupid things like letting units rush ahead).

Regardless though. I don't see why, if you wanted control of everything, you couldn't just treat the plan as purely cosmetic. Wait for the planning bonus to build up, then just don't execute the plan (or delete it, if you want to be totally sure) and do everything manually yourself. Either way, it seems like the planning bonus will decay at the same rate so if you want to spend hours clicking away like a dolphin with tourettes there seems to be absolutely no disadvantage to doing so.


I am looking at the Battle Plan system and trying to imagine how it works and problems that could arise, I will more then likely use complete manual control but I cannot imagine that discussing what I will do would be of interest to anyone.
 

CrasherZZ

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I am looking at the Battle Plan system and trying to imagine how it works and problems that could arise, I will more then likely use complete manual control but I cannot imagine that discussing what I will do would be of interest to anyone.

I would be interested. I'm having a hard time picturing it as well. Maybe we won't really know until we play it?