Command hierarchy

[Challenge]

Okay, so two of them.

Brain fart...

Min/Max is one of the reasons I shy away from MP anyway. I prefer more historical formations. Not exact, perhaps, but more in line with actual limitations.

 

[Zauberelefant]

Being overpowered is a matter of degree, considered along other factors such as historical plausibility, etc. Divisions represent divisions right, rather than corps? If so, the cap should be at what represents a division. 27 is the outer limit of that.

But the System also allows for Independent battalions, brigades, binary divisions which all existed. It allows for reinforced divisions as well. It's not consistent to implement A hard cap. As others suggested, there should be penalties to org, Initiative, etc.
Land combat needs to model actual reasons why triangular Divisions were the norm.

 

[halvorni]

And what, exactly, is 'width', as modelled in HoI4?

A standard division with three regiments each with three battalions, would NOT in most cases have all nine combat battalions on the front line. The normal would be to have a sizeable reserve, either one of the regiments or one battalion from each regiment, which would leave six battalions on the front line. Even less if you consider having reserves at all echelons. Artillery would NOT contribute to this width, since it would be grouped to the rear. Same with A/A, although AT might add some width. Armour would as well, although most likely less than infantry.

But is this 'width' really a limiting factor on the geographical scales that we have in the game? I'd say no.

I think what we're really trying to model is logistical congestion in a province, which is a real limiting factor in real life. The infrastructure can only handle this many vehicles before everything grinds to a halt, and although combat units can maneuvre outside of roads, the logistical tail of a division cannot in most cases. And this tail is huge. Artillery units will have a larger footprints than infantry due to the large amounts of ammunition they need. The same with armour units, due to both ammunition and fuel.

Implementing a system limiting the number of units in a province, as opposed to each front in the province, would be more realistic. We already have the supply system, of course, and the easiest solution might be to enhance this by increasing penalties so that units are under-supplied earlier.

 

[Emren]

Smaller divisions should have higher Initiative levels. Right now, Initiative is only gained by adding Signal Companies. But I think Pdox should utilize the Initiative variable to give a bonus to more narrow divisions. For example, If base initiative is 20% (right now it is 0%), then we could subtract 1% for each battalion added into the Division. Smaller divisions would then end up with a higher initiative than larger divisions - where adding in a signals company then becomes a necessity.

 

[Zauberelefant]

I'm afraid it's not that easy. While raw firepower for binary, triangular and square Divisions is quite linear, the combat effectiveness is not, due to more complicated chain of command, supply, lack of dedicated reserve in terms of organization et cetera.

The game would need to adjust for "internal complications" to make square divisions undesirable in most circumstances.

For binaries, I think that they had some use as they were used by Germans, italians and soviets, and apparently if you're short on manpower, they can be useful in second line assignments.

Both situations are not modeled by hoi4. That needs change.

 

[Eisscrat]

Ok cause one man have no clou what he is talking.

The german Infanteriedivision has 1939 a strengh of nearly 17000 men.
That is nearly exacly a 40w 14Inf/4Art division.

So a 40w division represents very good a german Infanteriedivision.

A 40w never ever represants a german Amreekorps.

Dont know the exact numbers of the other nations.
Russian had very small divisions (about 9000 men) and lack a corp-structure to save officers that they purged to much.

A corps should have at least 50.000 men up to 300.000 acording to Encyclopædia Britannica

Hope this will help u for the further discusions with facts instead of imagination.

 

[Emren]

Ok cause one man have no clou what he is talking.

The german Infanteriedivision has 1939 a strengh of nearly 17000 men.
That is nearly exacly a 40w 14Inf/4Art division.

Well your manpower number is correct, but even those large divisions had no more than 9 infantry battalions. The extra manpower came from all the additional units - artillery, panzer jagers, AA, etc. So from that point of view a 14/4 is quite unhistorical - no single division ever had 14 infantry battalions.

 

[Denkt]

Well your manpower number is correct, but even those large divisions had no more than 9 infantry battalions. The extra manpower came from all the additional units - artillery, panzer jagers, AA, etc. So from that point of view a 14/4 is quite unhistorical - no single division ever had 14 infantry battalions.

Yes, an infantry division in reality is not really based on infantry as much as the name may tell. Most of its firepower comes from artillery and machine guns and to make a historically german infantry division in terms of used Manpower in each field you need like 6 artillery battalions which may tell a bit about its firepower. The infantry was mostly used to support the Heavy weapons of the division.

 

[Eisscrat]

Well your manpower number is correct, but even those large divisions had no more than 9 infantry battalions. The extra manpower came from all the additional units - artillery, panzer jagers, AA, etc. So from that point of view a 14/4 is quite unhistorical - no single division ever had 14 infantry battalions.

Yes the organisation was the 3 times 3 in most of the armys. But the manpower of the regiments varied a lot in the different armys.

Only the italiens adapt a 2 regiment organisation and we all know how that worked. ; )

 

[halvorni]

I beg to differ, @Eisscrat. From where did you get that 17 000 soldiers equate to 14 infantry battalions and four artillery regiments (battalions)? Just dividing 17 000 with battalion manpower? This is flawed, since a division has many support troops that are not modelled in HoI4.

In real life almost all countries had divisions consisting of three regiments (or brigades) each with three combat battalions, or less. So in this case 9 infantry battalions or less. An exception would be the US at the start of the war, but they quickly discarded their larger divisions because they were too unwieldy. Could you please show me a real life division with 14 combat battalions?

As for artillery, an artillery battalion (or British regiment) at this time normally had 12 guns. So the battalions in HoI4 are really regiments. I'd say that each division should have one, or at most two of these to be considered realistic.

EDIT: This was a response to the previous post from Eisscrat - I didn't see the other posts in between.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

But the System also allows for Independent battalions, brigades, binary divisions which all existed. It allows for reinforced divisions as well. It's not consistent to implement A hard cap. As others suggested, there should be penalties to org, Initiative, etc.
Land combat needs to model actual reasons why triangular Divisions were the norm.

Ok but what did not exist with maybe one exception is corp sized monoliths....

 

[Zauberelefant]

Ok but what did not exist with maybe one exception is corp sized monoliths....

Depending on how you try to emulate History, it does.
Eiscrat showed that: If you want the manpower right, 14/4 or similarly is the way to go. 40w.
If you're after correct organization chart, you get 27-30 width.
If you think in game arty battalions are regiments, you end up with 22w.

So, it's not as easy but depends a lot on what's 'historic' in your opinion.

My last Germany game, I went with 12/3 Inf + AT, AA. I deemed that historic, because the organization was quite correct, the manpower was quite correct and the effect was an effective Division fighting other Divisions of the same calibre.

My tanks were fantasy, though. 12/4, meaning some 600 tanks in a division, made them Panzer-Gruppen instead of Divisions.

 

[Eisscrat]

My Panzerdivisionen setup is 4tanks 3mot 2sfl that is with the number if tanks 200-240 somewhat historical. Number of inf is far too low but they do not needed in hoi for panzerdivisions.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

Depending on how you try to emulate History, it does.
Eiscrat showed that: If you want the manpower right, 14/4 or similarly is the way to go. 40w.
If you're after correct organization chart, you get 27-30 width.
If you think in game arty battalions are regiments, you end up with 22w.

So, it's not as easy but depends a lot on what's 'historic' in your opinion.

My last Germany game, I went with 12/3 Inf + AT, AA. I deemed that historic, because the organization was quite correct, the manpower was quite correct and the effect was an effective Division fighting other Divisions of the same calibre.

My tanks were fantasy, though. 12/4, meaning some 600 tanks in a division, made them Panzer-Gruppen instead of Divisions.

I did say the cap should be 27w, not 40 width. This has grown very tiresome. Just because divisions were larger than 20 width, which I never disputed, does not mean they obtained 40 width. It is not just ahistorical but anti historical, and gamey and exploitative to boot,
Indeed a reddit thread I saw today in reading up on this indicates that 40 w panzer divisions are banned in multiplayer because they are effectively unstoppable.. I presume this is true, but have not taken the time to verify. And if it is not true, it certainly should be.

 

[Eisscrat]

I did say the cap should be 27w, not 20 width. This has grown very tiresome. Just because divisions were larger than 20 width, which I never disputed, does not 40 width. It is jot just historical but anti historical, and gamey and exploitative to boot,

Dont know what you want to say with this sentence but i already point out that german infanteriedivisions had 17.000 men historically. This are 17inf = 34with if you only use infantry. So over 27w division exist! Proof the numbers if you dont trust me. Dont repeat your incorrect information.

Indeed a reddit thread I saw today in reading up on this indicates that 40 w panzer divisions are banned in multiplayer because they are effectively unstoppable.. I presume this is true, but have not taken the time to verify. And if it is not true, it certainly should be.

There is no such thing then an unstoppable division type. Every division can be stopped. If it attack on a bad terrain type it is easier on plains it would be harder. If it get pierced, bombed by CAS, slow down by air superiority etc. it will be stopped. There are many factors that impact much more the 40w.

 

[STABBY5]

It should be banned for same reason that space marines were banned.

I didn't know I was playing a multiplayer match. I'll be sure to trade back Germany so the AI doesn't accuse me of throwing the game.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

As for artillery, an artillery battalion (or British regiment) at this time normally had 12 guns. So the battalions in HoI4 are really regiments. I'd say that each division should have one, or at most two of these to be considered realistic.

It would be better to reduce their stats to match historical 12 gun battalions instead.

I did say the cap should be 27w, not 20 width. This has grown very tiresome. Just because divisions were larger than 20 width, which I never disputed, does not 40 width. It is jot just historical but anti historical, and gamey and exploitative to boot,
Indeed a reddit thread I saw today in reading up on this indicates that 40 w panzer divisions are banned in multiplayer because they are effectively unstoppable.. I presume this is true, but have not taken the time to verify. And if it is not true, it certainly should be.

Strategic bombers are also often banned in MP. But If something is poorly balanced, it is better to get it improved and not throw it away completely.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

Dont know what you want to say with this sentence but i already point out that german infanteriedivisions had 17.000 men historically. This are 17inf = 34with if you only use infantry. So over 27w division exist! Proof the numbers if you dont trust me. Dont repeat your incorrect information.

There is no such thing then an unstoppable division type. Every division can be stopped. If it attack on a bad terrain type it is easier on plains it would be harder. If it get pierced, bombed by CAS, slow down by air superiority etc. it will be stopped. There are many factors that impact much more the 40w.

I corrected it. Please excuse the sloppy typing on my phone. I stand by my comments denouncing 40 width divisions...

 

[Gefallener_Held]

It would be better to reduce their stats to match historical 12 gun battalions instead.


Strategic bombers are also often banned in MP. But If something is poorly balanced, it is better to get it improved and not throw it away completely.

Except 40 width divisions have no basis in history or fact. Maybe GD but that is the only unit I can think of.

 

[Denkt]

When I tried to recreate the german infantry division, in which I used Manpower, not Equipment or battalions as the goal, I got to about 40 width and a division with significant firepower and cost which feels quite close to reality.

Germany did not have that many infantry divisions from what I can tell, US did not even have 100 divisions in total but still fielded over 10 milion Manpower or something like that and Soviet division was about half strength compared to the german ones during atleast a quite important part of the Eastern front.

The vast majority of an infantry divisions firepower is artillery so if you reduce the size and stats of artillery it can lead to quite some issues.