Comedy Hour as the Teutonic Order

[Palatinus Germanicus]

Just had a disastrous run as T.O. -Not sure what I did wrong.

Poland formed the P-L union, and only had Saxony as an ally.
I had Hungary, Bohemia, Livonian Order, and Brandenburg as allies.

Poland had MIL tech 3.
I had MIL tech 5.

Got lucky as my sucky ruler died after only 4 months, got a sweet replacement.

First war was started by Brandenburg, against Pomerania -- I was promised land. During that smackdown, I sucked up to Austria, even sent them a 200-ducat gift, so I could add myself to the empire.

After that was over, I tech'ed up & upgraded my troops and prepared for war with Poland. I promised Hungary land, and declared. Bohemia insisted on land as well (Silesia had a claim on Poznan). But I wanted Poznan, in fact it was the war goal. So I just kept Bohemia in reserve, just in case.

L.O. wouldn't join my war, because they went adventuring into Novgorod, piggy-backing on Muscovy/Denmark's war (for no gain), and they had debt. But besides that, they still wouldn't have joined. Brandenburg wouldn't join, either, even though I earned 29 favors from the other war. In fact, 3 weeks after I declared on Poland, Brandenburg went and started some other war.

But no matter. Between me and Hungary, along with my tech... I was sure we could win this. No big deal. A few months after the war started, things were going OK, but it was still a fight, for sure. Then I notice some Hungarian troops east of Warsaw, walking south. And they're black-flagged. WTH?

Oh, great. Hungary just got railroaded into a union with Austria, and now they're out. That's fantastic for my grand strategy. Fine... time to call in Bohemia. This is why you have 'reserves'. So I promised him land. No idea if he'll actually get any.

Well, he didn't get any. Because he WHITE PEACED out after about a year, and his army was still OK (attached to my mercs -- sieging Krakow), and only like 2 or 3 of his provinces were occupied. I don't even think any of them were his forts -- in fact, I'm sure they weren't. His forts were under siege, but not in immediate danger. We were all heading over there, after we finished Krakow.


So now I'm on my own. I've sieged up quite a bit, and have 41% war score. I move everything I've got into the Krakow siege, and Poland comes in from the west, black-flagged. I've got 14k doing the siege, and Poland beelines straight for me with his 16k (all he's got left). The battle goes on, and On, and ON... JUST long enough for Lithuania to come swooping in from fighting rebels, probably somewhere around MINSK. I would've beaten Poland (again), easily, but Lithuania arrived just in time. That battle just would NOT end, to ensure enough time for Lithuania to arrive.

And of course, I lose. Do I shatter? Of course not. But instead of getting wiped, I'll just peace out right quick... and just take what I can get -- right? Nope. With (now) 38% war score, Poland is only willing to concede exactly 8%... which is not enough to get any land. Only a few ducats.

I say forget it. Just wipe me. I'm done. <EXIT>

I still don't know what I did wrong. We fought the war very well. No disastrous battles (in fact I wiped one of the 2 main Polish armies), and a sound approach to sieging, etc. My allies totally flaked out. Total FLAKES.

"Alles ist verloren!"





I think I'll go play as Sweden now, so I can watch Denmark ally Muscovy. I'll get support for independence, and then THOSE allies will flake out when 2 provinces are under siege, I'll be on my own again... and die a slow, miserable death in a war of attrition. Sounds fun.

 

[YuriiH]

Live and learn
1) Hungary (just like Aragon) are questionable allies at the beginning. ===>>> Learn which event brings Hungary under PU with Austria, and avoid allying H. before it fires.
2) Bohemia peaced-out because you were loosing and probably did not control the wargoal. ===>>> Set an easy wargoal next time.
3) You've got outflanked by 16 polish troops in hills. ===>>> Try to fight on par, or outflank them.
4) Poland got mil tech 4 during the war, right? ===>>> Make a conclusion by yourself.

And by the way, congratulations: you depleted Poland which is likely to be attacked by Muscowy and Ottomans right after a peace with you

 

[Lor360]

People tend to overestimate Teutons and underestimate Poland for "historical coolness" reasons.


Remember, you are a mid sized nation while Poland has a great power in a personal union, a vassal and a march. And they all tend to merge into 1 -2 stacks that recover pretty fast after a defeat, so eventually they will wear your manpower out just by loosing and getting sieged.

Just call in more than 1 ally next time and promise land. There are plenty of new allies to make after you betray those old ones.
And don't spread too thin. Your allies will probably run around sieging with 10 army stacks that will easily be chased away or defeated by Poland. Wait till your allies start sieging and park your armies nearby to guard them.

 

[Schrod7]

Just finished a TO campaign, I had exact same allies as you, called all of them and it was relatively easy win. Also for some reason, both times (I retried once because I got destroyed later on by Denmark) Poland assigned noble and didn't get PU. Dunno if just lucky or I somehow rigged it. Oh, and I attacked as soon as I got tech 4, so I propably didn't give them time to prepare for another war.

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

Live and learn
1) Hungary (just like Aragon) are questionable allies at the beginning. ===>>> Learn which event brings Hungary under PU with Austria, and avoid allying H. before it fires.
2) Bohemia peaced-out because you were loosing and probably did not control the wargoal. ===>>> Set an easy wargoal next time.
3) You've got outflanked by 16 polish troops in hills. ===>>> Try to fight on par, or outflank them.
4) Poland got mil tech 4 during the war, right? ===>>> Make a conclusion by yourself.

And by the way, congratulations: you depleted Poland which is likely to be attacked by Muscowy and Ottomans right after a peace with you

I actually did control the war goal... Poznan. I also controlled the forts in Plock, Warsaw, and Kaunas -- and Krakow was getting close. The biggest outrage I have is that Bohemia peaced out so prematurely. 1 Silesian province was occupied, and 2 Bohemian. None of these 3 were forts. ONE Bohemian fort was under siege, and we (I) had 41% war score.

And he white peaces out. I don't think I can trust allies, anymore. Did they purposely make the game harder recently, by making allies so unreliable?

 

[Quaade]

L.O. wouldn't join my war, because they went adventuring into Novgorod, piggy-backing on Muscovy/Denmark's war (for no gain), and they had debt. But besides that, they still wouldn't have joined. Brandenburg wouldn't join, either, even though I earned 29 favors from the other war. In fact, 3 weeks after I declared on Poland, Brandenburg went and started some other war.

Did you remember to then USE the favours to increase trust? not sure how unwilling they were, but at times it can be enough to spend 10 favours to up trust... in this case you could likely have waited 1 more year and upped trust with 10, which should have assured their aid or at least with the support of a dip rep advisor

Better luck next time... Just had 2 failed Norwegian woods happening from stupid allies and some funny mistakes will wait until 1.23 when I can actually benefit from not using mercs... Since norway have exactly 0 combat ideas, having a professional army might give them the extra edge to not lose nearly EVERY battle what so ever

So now I'm on my own. I've sieged up quite a bit, and have 41% war score. I move everything I've got into the Krakow siege, and Poland comes in from the west, black-flagged. I've got 14k doing the siege, and Poland beelines straight for me with his 16k (all he's got left). The battle goes on, and On, and ON... JUST long enough for Lithuania to come swooping in from fighting rebels, probably somewhere around MINSK. I would've beaten Poland (again), easily, but Lithuania arrived just in time. That battle just would NOT end, to ensure enough time for Lithuania to arrive.

At the point of Hungary getting out and you having 41%, that would have been a good time to peace out... Better grab what you can without too many losses unless you are really sure of what you are doing You should "easily" be able to win that war at that time and there are a few ways to do it which doesn´t really involve cheesing... But it can turn rather quickly with a few unlucky rolls... Here it´s a blessing knowing how and when to engage in battles, when to push forward and knowing AI, also their neighbours... At times, you can bet on AI attacking them mid/late-war when it drags on for longer than needed... Then it´s best to make it a bit more defensive and just put them into the ground until they can´t recover as much...

Had this casual France game I streamed to answer question for those new to the game, playing casual... as France... I paid little attention to many of the wars and made some stupid mistakes that way... It can be a good thing to think long-term in wars to make it easier for yourself, as said before... there are many ways to fight the beast easily

I still don't know what I did wrong. We fought the war very well. No disastrous battles (in fact I wiped one of the 2 main Polish armies), and a sound approach to sieging, etc. My allies totally flaked out. Total FLAKES.

There can be a few reasons for it... And I´m fairly sure which one they fell on... Not sure if they realized that you were still holding the province they were promised and took that into consideration... PDX should definitely think of adding that at least, to limit cheesing AI like that ;-) however... Since the most dire modifier to peace out an AI is actually the "length of war", since the war had been going for quite awhile before Bohemia joined, they simply was close already early when they joined... Doesn´t take losing a lot of manpower and have a few loans before they WP out... AI doesn´t see wars as "won" or "lost" the same way as humans do

And by the way, congratulations: you depleted Poland which is likely to be attacked by Muscowy and Ottomans right after a peace with you

Oh... now you are just mocking him

I actually did control the war goal... Poznan. I also controlled the forts in Plock, Warsaw, and Kaunas -- and Krakow was getting close. The biggest outrage I have is that Bohemia peaced out so prematurely. 1 Silesian province was occupied, and 2 Bohemian. None of these 3 were forts. ONE Bohemian fort was under siege, and we (I) had 41% war score.

Not sure what the modifiers said for Polands logic behind not wanting to give you more... But pretty sure with 38% you should be able to get more than gold... however I suspect what happened was the "making gains" modifier getting on since they routed you, that can make it quite difficult to make a profitable peace which is why it can be better to peace out when you suspect you will be paying too much for the war...

Not sure how your loan and debase situation were, but you could have turned it around again by fast rebuild of armies by making use of these and mercs, in this case Lit would likely already be close to rebels spawning en masse, meaning you should play the long-term... Also Crimea will usually be quite aggressive towards a weakened P-L... However, since Lit will go deal with rebels you should make use of the defensive siege battles, since you either are waiting for the "making gains" are lost or for an opening either in AI attacking, rebels or simply just for you to push on... Wait until they siege a fort and then attack them... preferable when they are divided... At times you can prolong the sieges with no battles if you can trick the AI from moving away from it... Here Lit provinces and capitol can be a decent way to get them to lift it...

Also... Remeber to carpet siege as much as you can... It´s an outdated reference but actually is still quite useful to this day for a number of reasons... most important... Enemy will get less income, more war exhaustion, gaining loot to limit the use of loans and debasing... And the logical argument of enemy not able to rebuild army as fast, since less provinces = less recruitment places... This can give you enough breathing room to siege down a fort, or to keep hunting their army till they are gone due to low morale... Not sure how LD was doing at Lit, since they should be fairly loyal... But it´s possible to get them at 50 % LD meaning they will effectively stop aiding Poland and move their troops in to defend their own lands.

 

[YuriiH]

I actually did control the war goal... Poznan.

But you invited Bohemia for Poznan, right? ===>>>Allies are less likely to continue waging war if you don't give them control of their war target,

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

Hey, just wanted to come back and say: I had one more go as the T.O. I only allied Bohemia, L.O., and Riga. Poland got the union, and DoW'd me, very early. I wasn't ready, and thought the game was over.

But we won in a total land-slide. I made my ruler into a shock-5 general, which helped. But for whatever reason, my alliance totally wrecked them, in every battle. 99% warscore. In combat, we lost like 19k, to their 60+ (plenty of good stack wipes)

It was like I was playing a completely different game, compared to the other time^

So what was the secret? How did I turn the tables so drastically? What did I learn from these experiences? Well, I'll tell you the secret: Stay on MIL tech 3.

First time, I was one MIL tech 5, and had a big advantage. What a mistake. This time, I stayed on MIL 3... and completely obliterated the enemy.

Yeah, I don't get it, either. But I got my revenge. Then allied Muscovy -- because I was able to rival Novgorod. And -most strangely- after the war, Lithuania was at 100% liberty desire. -Never seen that.

Unfortunately I got to 99% aristocratic coup (with their 80.3% influence)... did some development in the capital, which I was sure would be enough... but it was only 80.00000001%, and the coup happened. Why'd I wait 'til 99%? Because the Burghers JUST became loyal again, and I didn't want to pay extra MP for the development. Developed like 4 times, but it still wasn't enough.

Stab hit, coup... RAGE QUIT.

But alas, I got my revenge on the P-L Union... and no one can take that away from me.

 

[Heiliges Thüringens Reich]

I believe your allies had better generals, rulers and probably this time they rivalled either Poland and/or Lithuania. I think rivals will have less interest in white peacing their rivals.

Also, you were attacked in your second run. IIRC, if the AI doesn't make your allies co-beligerant (I think it never does), it needs to force them to leave your war through sieging. In your previous run, you were the attacker - and your allies can (and probably will) leave the war if they get something useful from it early.

With Teutonics, I think it's better to be attacked by Poland (while you have good allies, of course) so you have all the advantages (they'll come after your land anyway) and your allies will stick around longer. After you defeat it, take a lot of land so you'll cripple Poland to the point it won't really dare to attack you again (Hungary and Ottomans would like their lands very much)

 

[nicochrish]

First time, I was one MIL tech 5, and had a big advantage. What a mistake. This time, I stayed on MIL 3... and completely obliterated the enemy.

I think you're confusing correlation with causality. Staying on MIL 3 is not normally a winning strategy.

Did you adapt your army composition to your combat width in your first try?

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

I believe your allies had better generals, rulers and probably this time they rivalled either Poland and/or Lithuania. I think rivals will have less interest in white peacing their rivals.

Also, you were attacked in your second run. IIRC, if the AI doesn't make your allies co-beligerant (I think it never does), it needs to force them to leave your war through sieging. In your previous run, you were the attacker - and your allies can (and probably will) leave the war if they get something useful from it early.

With Teutonics, I think it's better to be attacked by Poland (while you have good allies, of course) so you have all the advantages (they'll come after your land anyway) and your allies will stick around longer. After you defeat it, take a lot of land so you'll cripple Poland to the point it won't really dare to attack you again (Hungary and Ottomans would like their lands very much)

Yes, that all makes sense. What I can't figure out is why the combat was so one-sided. I mean, we didn't just 'beat' them. We totally embarrassed them on every occasion. Every single battle was like the most amazing victory I've ever had. I swear it was like our units were from 100 years in the future... but everyone was all on tech 3.

I'm sure Poland was screaming, "WTH is going on here?! This CAN'T be happening!!"

Anyway these 2 wars were like night & day. Only real difference I can discern is I didn't have the tech advantage I did before. Hmmm....
Our total kill ratio in combat was around 4:1 -and I can't explain it.

"Defender's moral high-ground advantage"?? Seems like that was happening both times... first against me... then for me.

 

[TenshiN]

Yes, that all makes sense. What I can't figure out is why the combat was so one-sided. I mean, we didn't just 'beat' them. We totally embarrassed them on every occasion. Every single battle was like the most amazing victory I've ever had. I swear it was like our units were from 100 years in the future... but everyone was all on tech 3.

I'm sure Poland was screaming, "WTH is going on here?! This CAN'T be happening!!"

Anyway these 2 wars were like night & day. Only real difference I can discern is I didn't have the tech advantage I did before. Hmmm....
Our total kill ratio in combat was around 4:1 -and I can't explain it.

"Defender's moral high-ground advantage"?? Seems like that was happening both times... first against me... then for me.

5-shock general along with TO's starting bonuses is likely to obliterate everything it touches at this point. Also, it is quite possible that Poland+Lithuania just rolled 0-1 shock generals, which make winning everything with equal numbers highly unlikely, while your allies did not.

In the end, with all the strategy, it still comes down to good ol' dicerolls

 

[Palatinus Germanicus]

5-shock general along with TO's starting bonuses is likely to obliterate everything it touches at this point. Also, it is quite possible that Poland+Lithuania just rolled 0-1 shock generals, which make winning everything with equal numbers highly unlikely, while your allies did not.

In the end, with all the strategy, it still comes down to good ol' dicerolls

I've always told people, "I play these types of games on the PC, and never play the old strategy boardgames anymore... because just I can't stand any game where we just 'roll the dice, and see who wins'."

If you look at the battle/combat mechanics of some other Paradox titles (I'm thinking of Darkest Hour, a heavily modded HoI2 variant -- but presumably also w/ newer HoI releases, I'd think), the combat is so much more complex, that it takes the 'feel' of 'rolling the dice' out of the gaming experience. Basically tons more modifiers. More complexity. Eu4 really needs that. We're essentially still running the exact same system EU3 used.

 

[TenshiN]

I've always told people, "I play these types of games on the PC, and never play the old strategy boardgames anymore... because just I can't stand any game where we just 'roll the dice, and see who wins'."

If you look at the battle/combat mechanics of some other Paradox titles (I'm thinking of Darkest Hour, a heavily modded HoI2 variant -- but presumably also w/ newer HoI releases, I'd think), the combat is so much more complex, that it takes the 'feel' of 'rolling the dice' out of the gaming experience. Basically tons more modifiers. More complexity. Eu4 really needs that. We're essentially still running the exact same system EU3 used.

Not everyone likes more complexity, some people play Farmville, some prefer competitive games like Starcraft, someone likes the Strategy genre and so on. Its not that EU4 NEEDS the content, but you would like it better if it did. I am sure that many people would dislike the HoI-level complexity. It is great that you do, though.

 

[Zwirbaum]

I've always told people, "I play these types of games on the PC, and never play the old strategy boardgames anymore... because just I can't stand any game where we just 'roll the dice, and see who wins'."

If you look at the battle/combat mechanics of some other Paradox titles (I'm thinking of Darkest Hour, a heavily modded HoI2 variant -- but presumably also w/ newer HoI releases, I'd think), the combat is so much more complex, that it takes the 'feel' of 'rolling the dice' out of the gaming experience. Basically tons more modifiers. More complexity. Eu4 really needs that. We're essentially still running the exact same system EU3 used.

Great example of game having more complexity modifiers over the predecessor was Master of Orion 3. It was great!... Wait a minute...

 

[YuriiH]

More complexity. Eu4 really needs that.

Have you ever thought that EU4 is a way much complex than you can imagine if you complain about Teutons vs Poland?

 

[kgmi]

Have you ever thought that EU4 is a way much complex than you can imagine if you complain about Teutons vs Poland?

I have to admit, after 300h playtime I had still no clue on how to make money with trading, and after 600h I started to realise how terribly ineffective my army compositon had been all the time. Granted after thousands of hours the game doesn't seem to be that complex anymore, but for new comers, even RTS veterans, the game is pretty complex.