Come on PDX, it's not too late. Please add Hagia Sophia to Constantinople
- Thread starter Mindel
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+1
Also fun fact Unesco is currently "debating" with the Turkish Goverment as the building is currently a museum while the goverment would like to turn it back to a mosque. You can google it if you want.
So many centuries later the issue is still dividing people.
Starting to sound like a broken record by now, but here we go once more.
For starters, the Hagia Sophia is technically existent during the game's timespan (as it is up to date). It's represenation as a "great work" in the game context is unrelated to that, as the "Great works" concept, for all I got so far, represents not solely the existence of a structure, but also a sort of activity and support for it.
I.e. a Byzantine Emperor focusing on attracting pilgrims to the realms main cathedral- the Hagia Sophia- can pick the cathedral great work building. According to last week's dev diary it does indeed give a hefty tax income bonus to the province, reflecting all those pilgrims.
However, a more secular ruler or dynasty might just as well decide to put more focus on their Palace of Justice or the statues of their rulers. The Hagia Sophia would be unaffected by that, technically- it's so grand a building that even the Ottomans did not just not destroy it, but in fact made its design the to-go-model for Ottoman mosques for centuries to come, with added minaretts.
There just would be no official sanctioning and support for pilgrimages as much (reflected in the lack of a tax modifier granted by a cathedral great work).
For starters, the Hagia Sophia is technically existent during the game's timespan (as it is up to date). It's represenation as a "great work" in the game context is unrelated to that, as the "Great works" concept, for all I got so far, represents not solely the existence of a structure, but also a sort of activity and support for it.
I.e. a Byzantine Emperor focusing on attracting pilgrims to the realms main cathedral- the Hagia Sophia- can pick the cathedral great work building. According to last week's dev diary it does indeed give a hefty tax income bonus to the province, reflecting all those pilgrims.
However, a more secular ruler or dynasty might just as well decide to put more focus on their Palace of Justice or the statues of their rulers. The Hagia Sophia would be unaffected by that, technically- it's so grand a building that even the Ottomans did not just not destroy it, but in fact made its design the to-go-model for Ottoman mosques for centuries to come, with added minaretts.
There just would be no official sanctioning and support for pilgrimages as much (reflected in the lack of a tax modifier granted by a cathedral great work).
OK, but then we come back to "Why am I stuck with Stonehenge" and for that matter why does the Pope get his Apostolic Palace? For most of the game's time-frame he main Papal Residence was the Lateran Palace, it was only after the return from Avignon that the Popes started residing in the Apostolic Palace in the Vatican. Almost none of the current complex is remotely medieval, almost all of it was built after the end of the game.
Small nitpick: the update is called Great Works, but the in-game features we are talking about are called wonders.
And to make myself sound like a broken record as well: what you said is not the reason Paradox gave. Paradox said that their reason is that the Hagia Sophia did not become a big deal until after the game's time frame when the Ottoman's made it a mosque, which is factually incorrect.
That aside, what you are saying would apply to literally every wonder in the game, so we could have no wonders then. Which wouldn't make much sense.
Actually they changed it to Great Works, to go along with the name of the patch. But I agree with the rest.
I know he didn't say that in the vid (which is why I said, don't hang the guy up on this one statement)- He did explicitly mention it was hard to decide which one to pick for Constantinople in the same sentence, however that didn't make it in any thread titles so it's less quoted.
Given I've no staff stamp in my profile, this obviously is my personal point of view on this matter, nothing else.
And we'll have wonders in five days if paradox is within their time-plan of developement, that is the core of this discussion. Wether it makes sense or not.
I'll agree that it would have made as much sense to simply leave all slots free and not add any historical ones at all, no question.
My assumption for the apostolic palace: Besides a historical pyramid, lighthouse and mausoleum they also wanted a Grand Palace present on the map at game starts, and picked Rome for it.
Without having looked into the details of the architectural history of the Vatican City, and mostly taking game balance in account, it's a quit fair pick to give Rome a buff by letting it have a palace from the start imo.
And taking rl history in account again, which they might have done too, well- splendid palaces were rare in central europe at that time, Aachen, let's be serious, no, Versailles was buildt not late but way out of the game's timeframe, as was the current day design of Vienna's Hofburg (and granted, we have St. Stephan, I could write my own thread too).
Constantinople, again, was arguably so stuffed with wonders that putting a palace there was not an option.
After reading up about the history of the palace:
Disregard what I said above, I realized Civ IV has this palace so I get where it comes from now
Given I've no staff stamp in my profile, this obviously is my personal point of view on this matter, nothing else.
And we'll have wonders in five days if paradox is within their time-plan of developement, that is the core of this discussion. Wether it makes sense or not.
I'll agree that it would have made as much sense to simply leave all slots free and not add any historical ones at all, no question.
My assumption for the apostolic palace: Besides a historical pyramid, lighthouse and mausoleum they also wanted a Grand Palace present on the map at game starts, and picked Rome for it.
Without having looked into the details of the architectural history of the Vatican City, and mostly taking game balance in account, it's a quit fair pick to give Rome a buff by letting it have a palace from the start imo.
And taking rl history in account again, which they might have done too, well- splendid palaces were rare in central europe at that time, Aachen, let's be serious, no, Versailles was buildt not late but way out of the game's timeframe, as was the current day design of Vienna's Hofburg (and granted, we have St. Stephan, I could write my own thread too).
Constantinople, again, was arguably so stuffed with wonders that putting a palace there was not an option.
After reading up about the history of the palace:
Disregard what I said above, I realized Civ IV has this palace so I get where it comes from now
That whole situation is more political posturing, Erdogan is facing an election and is running on a pro Islam policy at a time where America is more firmly backing
Israel and in the wake of an atrocity. The Hagia Sofia mosque conversion is basically his border wall.
Good for you.
Like I suggested , I'm not exactly fond of the world view that sees Thomas Jefferson and Bill Gates as the beginning and end of world history , and Holy truth.
I ' ll take a bite again.
It's a free update , so I guess I can't really complain either way.
If it were a DLC though , frankly , I wouldn't buy it.
It's a good idea , superficially , but seems out of context in practice.
What were the wonders of the medieval world ?
Cathedrals and castles. Cathedrals and castles are already in the game. And as far as that goes , it takes hundreds of years and a lot of effort to go from a simple stockade to keep out the riff raff , to a show place --- and that is with generous use of the money cheat !
As far as castles with bells and whistles thrown in are concerned --- somebody already beat them to it with , " Your Personal Castle " mod. As for me , as long as the creator of that mod keeps updating it , I have no intention of retiring it.
Universities ? Again , there is an excellent mod covering that subject , which I have no plans to retire.
Libraries ? I love libraries , but where Europe at least is concerned , it appears to me that monasteries or abbey complexes with a scriptorium add - on would be truer to the context.
Giant statues of myself ? Again , at least where Europe is concerned , megalomania , hyper - individuality , and personality cults seem to me far more characteristic of the ancient world and the modern world , not really at all representative of medieval thinking with its , EVERYBODY is somebodies vassal , or the emperor or the Pope is merely the first ( that is the lowest ) of servants. ( In rhetoric at least , if not in reality. ) Pride is number one on the list of cardinal sins.
Some really good medieval wonders ? A paved road. Canals / irrigation systems. A clock or other time -keeping device. Deep mines . Salt mines , or coastal salt beds complexes. An actual banking system . Breweries or distilleries . ( Though apparently they are adding that one. )
But they don't appear to be going in that direction , but instead in the gee - whiz direction.
It seems to me though that generally in the medieval world the gee - whiz was primarily in little things , not big things.
Like , for example , they seemed to spend enormous sums on elaborate pageants and fancy costume parties , where even the people doing the serving were dressed to the nines. But , because they didn't have wash - and - wear fabrics , or dry -cleaning , all those fancy clothes would be thrown out within six months anyway. --- And in 6 months they will spend another quarter of a years revenue on another fancy pageant and fancy clothes.
Little things.
It's a free update , so I guess I can't really complain either way.
If it were a DLC though , frankly , I wouldn't buy it.
It's a good idea , superficially , but seems out of context in practice.
What were the wonders of the medieval world ?
Cathedrals and castles. Cathedrals and castles are already in the game. And as far as that goes , it takes hundreds of years and a lot of effort to go from a simple stockade to keep out the riff raff , to a show place --- and that is with generous use of the money cheat !
As far as castles with bells and whistles thrown in are concerned --- somebody already beat them to it with , " Your Personal Castle " mod. As for me , as long as the creator of that mod keeps updating it , I have no intention of retiring it.
Universities ? Again , there is an excellent mod covering that subject , which I have no plans to retire.
Libraries ? I love libraries , but where Europe at least is concerned , it appears to me that monasteries or abbey complexes with a scriptorium add - on would be truer to the context.
Giant statues of myself ? Again , at least where Europe is concerned , megalomania , hyper - individuality , and personality cults seem to me far more characteristic of the ancient world and the modern world , not really at all representative of medieval thinking with its , EVERYBODY is somebodies vassal , or the emperor or the Pope is merely the first ( that is the lowest ) of servants. ( In rhetoric at least , if not in reality. ) Pride is number one on the list of cardinal sins.
Some really good medieval wonders ? A paved road. Canals / irrigation systems. A clock or other time -keeping device. Deep mines . Salt mines , or coastal salt beds complexes. An actual banking system . Breweries or distilleries . ( Though apparently they are adding that one. )
But they don't appear to be going in that direction , but instead in the gee - whiz direction.
It seems to me though that generally in the medieval world the gee - whiz was primarily in little things , not big things.
Like , for example , they seemed to spend enormous sums on elaborate pageants and fancy costume parties , where even the people doing the serving were dressed to the nines. But , because they didn't have wash - and - wear fabrics , or dry -cleaning , all those fancy clothes would be thrown out within six months anyway. --- And in 6 months they will spend another quarter of a years revenue on another fancy pageant and fancy clothes.
Little things.
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I'd like to conclude this thread with a thank you to Paradox for listening to our input and incorporating it into the game. Really, it is amazing and uncommon to find developers who are so accessible, and generous enough to let the rest of us contribute to their creation. You guys are a wonder.
