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Karlington

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They just mentioned in their last stream that the Hagia Sophia only became famous after the fall of the Empire, when it was turned into a mosque, and thats the reason why it wont be in game.

They seriously said this? I don't know where they got that idea. Here's how Wikipedia presents it:

"Built in 537 AD at the beginning of the Middle Ages, it was famous in particular for its massive dome. It was the world's largest building and an engineering marvel of its time. It is considered the epitome of Byzantine architecture and is said to have "changed the history of architecture"."

They must have been reading some weird books or something over at Paradox...
 

Caspian Mortis

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The Hagia Sophia literally was the largest church on Earth for nearly a thousand years and was sometimes considered a wonder of the world. It was the crown jewel of Byzantine architecture and one of the most important architectural constructions in world history.

If the devs seriously said such a ridiculous thing they should all be forced to attend history classes 24/7 for the next 12 weeks.

The fact that it is not already included in the upcoming DLC is an absolute travesty and insult to history.
 

knppel

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Personally I think keeping wonders generic is not the dumbest idea. I'd assume great cathedral is one of the ten to twenty options available to christians, which should serve the purpose.

That it arguably should be present ingame as more historically significant in its time already compared to other barbarian stuff, well, that's a different pair of shoes, however it comes to no surprise given we also had more famous Irish Chieftains with bloodlines than Byzantine Emperors in the last patch.
I mean Stonehenge, honestly? How many pilgrims a year did they record again in let's say 867, that came to spectate this outmost wonder? Just... saying.
 

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Although I would be very happy to see glorious art of Hagia Sophia every time I click on Constantinople I can certainly see the benefit of building your own wonder. For example the great harbor would do a great job at representing the commercial importance of this city since it lacks silk road building. For balance reasons I assume.
Anyway the best outcome for Constantinople is being a wonder itself. Although it can open a pandora box of forum threads like "Why X city if not a wonder?" so unfotunatly it's better not to do this.
Regardless I would be equally happy with both outcomes. This addition to the game is quite welcome and very unexpected.
 

knppel

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After watching the whole video, I am delighted to see breweries being included, I was actually thinking of suggesting that just this weekend.

Can we also get Austrian and Bavarian culture now please, you can give shitty retinues if we get better beer powers than the generic GERMANS, as is historically accurate up to 2019

Also pyramid challenge taken on
 

Xoatl

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They just mentioned in their last stream that the Hagia Sophia only became famous after the fall of the Empire, when it was turned into a mosque, and thats the reason why it wont be in game.

Yep.

The VERY image for wonders is the Muslim version. Mark my words, they will only put it into the game if they add Great Wonder conversion, to make a recreation of 1453 possible.

But to give Orthodoxy an unique goodie? We can't have that!

*angry react*
 

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Constantinople 537 AD:
Justinian, probably the greatest Byzantine emperor, marvels at his newly build great cathedral and exclaims: "Glory to God who has thought me worthy to finish this work. Solomon, I have outdone you."
Stockholm 2019 AD (...1482 years later):
Paradox Devs: "It (Hagia Sofia) only became important after the game's end date when it was turned into a mosque (1453)".

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Seriously the only reason you wouldn't have Hagia Sofia or a restored temple of Jerusalem as probable wonders is to avoid having people ravaging them in game and having to deal with a possible flamewar afterwards. Also the case for Mecca -Kaaba. Otherwise it really doesn't make any sence?!?!
 

knppel

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Seriously the only reason you wouldn't have Hagia Sofia or a restored temple of Jerusalem as probable wonders is to avoid having people ravaging them in game and having to deal with a possible flamewar afterwards. Also the case for Mecca -Kaaba. Otherwise it really doesn't make any sence?!?!

Well, I actually evolved a conspiracy theory over night to explain that.
Irish Chieftains did not only get more bloodlines than Byzantine Emperors, they also had their own culture specific succession law long before (And it's actually its own design, not a rip-off of republics).
Thus, likely sponsored by the chinese (Evidence for China being behind everything you can find in Jade Dragon), paradox seems to have been undermined by Irish-descendant developers, who now do what we'd all do in their position, and focus on the part of the world they know about.
Evidently, not Justinian left the mightiest legacy, but St. Patrick.
 

manager2525

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Well, I actually evolved a conspiracy theory over night to explain that.
Irish Chieftains did not only get more bloodlines than Byzantine Emperors, they also had their own culture specific succession law long before (And it's actually its own design, not a rip-off of republics).
Thus, likely sponsored by the chinese (Evidence for China being behind everything you can find in Jade Dragon), paradox seems to have been undermined by Irish-descendant developers, who now do what we'd all do in their position, and focus on the part of the world they know about.
Evidently, not Justinian left the mightiest legacy, but St. Patrick.

Well sure, i agree one hundred percent.
Also the "not so secret bears" must be behind all this.
My spymaster Sir Mittens has provided me with concreate evidence for the above plot!!!
:eek::eek:
 

GolfballDM

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After watching the whole video, I am delighted to see breweries being included, I was actually thinking of suggesting that just this weekend.

Can we also get Austrian and Bavarian culture now please, you can give shitty retinues if we get better beer powers than the generic GERMANS, as is historically accurate up to 2019

Also pyramid challenge taken on

MORE BEER!
 

knppel

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Historical accuracy aside, separate wonder branches for Weißbier, Pils and Märzen are basic requirement (And yes for that alleged ale starting with "G" they brew on this island too fine)
Reinheitsgebot law also a MUST for the German Kaiser
 

Patriarch of Bub

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The Hagia Sophia is very dear to me. A grandiose symbol of Christianity, later of Orthodoxy specifically, it even managed something incredible. In its last moments it got Greeks and Latins to pray together again.

It is sad to know that only something like the fall of ERE, beautiful crown of Christendom, managed to heal division.

The image of the Hagia Sophia is to me the image of a truly united Christianity. Unbelievably, bigger steps are being taken towards that.

Point is...... I want it in game too. :)
 

MentziaIII

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Personally I think keeping wonders generic is not the dumbest idea. I'd assume great cathedral is one of the ten to twenty options available to christians, which should serve the purpose.

^ That's what I think.

Unless we are talking about inert icons / eye candy that give no bonuses what so ever anyway , like the Hadrian's Wall already in the game .



Seriously the only reason you wouldn't have Hagia Sofia or a restored temple of Jerusalem as probable wonders is to avoid having people ravaging them in game and having to deal with a possible flamewar afterwards. Also the case for Mecca -Kaaba.

^ Maybe run with that idea a minute , think about it a long minute ?

It seems to me that a game with crusades , witch burnings , Lucifer's Own , Seduction focus , bastardy , etc , etc , is already pretty daring , and skating already very close to politically incorrect / Not family friendly .

It has occurred to me that the art for witch burnings , Lucifer's own , seductions , executions , events could be a lot more .... umm ..... interesting.

But , as far as I know , you don't even see any mods that would add more interesting art to these aspects , either.

Why might that be ?

Well, I actually evolved a conspiracy theory over night to explain that.
Irish Chieftains did not only get more bloodlines than Byzantine Emperors, they also had their own culture specific succession law long before (And it's actually its own design, not a rip-off of republics).
Thus, likely sponsored by the chinese (Evidence for China being behind everything you can find in Jade Dragon), paradox seems to have been undermined by Irish-descendant developers, who now do what we'd all do in their position, and focus on the part of the world they know about.
Evidently, not Justinian left the mightiest legacy, but St. Patrick.

Here's my theory ;

How many sales of this game do you figure will actually be made in Sweden , or Moldavia ?

Now , what about the Anglo - American - centric market ? How big is that market compared to Albania - centric ?

I'm not particularly fond of the British or the Americans , and so , perhaps for that reason I notice a lot of --- yes , specifically historical games --- never the less pander heavily to an Anglo - American view of the world.

And I suspect the motive is maybe less ideological , more commercial.

Notice , in five minutes flat you can find a discussion forum where 30 different people are discussing American politics , and yet not one of those 30 people has ever even set foot in America.

Just the other day I met a German woman , born and raised in Trier , who thought , " The Holy Roman Empire ( *whisper * - of the German people . ) "

Was a reference to Caesar and Cleopatra , and all that jazz.

So my guess would be that the Anglo - American - centric market is the biggest seller. Anglo - American - centric is what even Czechs and Libyans are buying , or so it seems to me .

Hence , you get Irish bloodlines , and Stonehenge.
 

knppel

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It's not "Looting the Kabaa", it's pushing the decadent hashimids out as honourable, hardy tribesmen, and then pillaging it all to build a stone hillfort on the rubble, and tell the people how it really was, and that Umar DID push Fatima and Ali was the rightful Caliph *cough*
Nefoud 867, great start, yeah.
And in further regards of political correctness, in case she's excommunicated, it's totally fine to imprison and execute her (or him, for that case). Not to point out a certain intrigue decision which comes in particularly handy if you're also in debt and don't mind justice at all.
So yeah, I also doubt this was much of a reasoning as all that is possible. Having the prophet of Islam displayed simply by his name opposed to a fictional or randomized beard and turban was a rather creative approach on that topic, if anything, and is actually well hidden, not like this not-a-portrait would appear in game unless you check back the dynasty trees and ancestors of the Sayyid families.
Mentioning this as it's basically the one politically correct thing ever in this game.

As for looting the Hagia Sophia, we'll have to wait and see how the construction will be balanced, given in the recent LP they cheated heavily to build theirs, I'd assume it's nothing the AI Byzantine Emperor will achieve quickly ingame- and we might have to try a douzen times when the AI decides to build a different wonder than a cathedral.

As for people with close to zero historical interest, I'd assume you can find such anywhere in the world. My bet's on her only knowing Caesar and Cleopatra from "Asterix", and not even the comics but only the movie with Depardieu.
 

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^ That's what I think.

Unless we are talking about inert icons / eye candy that give no bonuses what so ever anyway , like the Hadrian's Wall already in the game .





^ Maybe run with that idea a minute , think about it a long minute ?

It seems to me that a game with crusades , witch burnings , Lucifer's Own , Seduction focus , bastardy , etc , etc , is already pretty daring , and skating already very close to politically incorrect / Not family friendly .

It has occurred to me that the art for witch burnings , Lucifer's own , seductions , executions , events could be a lot more .... umm ..... interesting.

But , as far as I know , you don't even see any mods that would add more interesting art to these aspects , either.

Why might that be ?



Here's my theory ;

How many sales of this game do you figure will actually be made in Sweden , or Moldavia ?

Now , what about the Anglo - American - centric market ? How big is that market compared to Albania - centric ?

I'm not particularly fond of the British or the Americans , and so , perhaps for that reason I notice a lot of --- yes , specifically historical games --- never the less pander heavily to an Anglo - American view of the world.

And I suspect the motive is maybe less ideological , more commercial.

Notice , in five minutes flat you can find a discussion forum where 30 different people are discussing American politics , and yet not one of those 30 people has ever even set foot in America.

Just the other day I met a German woman , born and raised in Trier , who thought , " The Holy Roman Empire ( *whisper * - of the German people . ) "

Was a reference to Caesar and Cleopatra , and all that jazz.

So my guess would be that the Anglo - American - centric market is the biggest seller. Anglo - American - centric is what even Czechs and Libyans are buying , or so it seems to me .

Hence , you get Irish bloodlines , and Stonehenge.

Interesting theory.
Again i am still speculating but i would have to go with knppel on that. The only case where PDX seems to have gone the political correct road is prophet of Islam portrate not being in game. A very good solution has been however implemented.
So i believe that touching religious issues is a big no no (and for valid reasons). Also if you look at the list of historical wonders DevDiary117 you can see a "patern". No holy sites of active modern day religions that have not been destroyed. No Hagia Sophia, no Kaaba, no Archbasilica of St. John in Rome (but instead the Apostolic palace). The list can go on with other religions as well.
All that been said and despite having Hagia Sophia as a historical wonder being a popular opinion i don't expect we will have any positive surprises on the topic.
At this point it is not only the developers valid concerns on such a religious topic but also that one would have to later deal with the countless threads and future discussion - arguments this would cause "But you included the Hagia Sophia after popular demand etc".
We forumites might be like raising small children sometimes. You have to stick to what you say to us even if it proves wrong - unpopular in the long run.
I think that is too much of analysis for now.
:):)
 

Karlington

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At this point it is not only the developers valid concerns on such a religious topic but also that one would have to later deal with the countless threads and future discussion - arguments this would cause "But you included the Hagia Sophia after popular demand etc".

The reason Paradox apparently gave for not including the Hagia Sophia is that it was not considered noteworthy until after the Ottoman conquest. That is factually wrong, and I think that is what people are reacting to.

As for your second point in the quote, I think worse things could happen to a company than having a reputation for listening to consumers and being willing to include their suggestions into their games. :)
 

treb

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They just mentioned in their last stream that the Hagia Sophia only became famous after the fall of the Empire, when it was turned into a mosque, and thats the reason why it wont be in game.

So being the largest church and by technicality of being an enclosed building by volume the largest place of worship period for 1000 years is not enough? the building itself was well renowned for the way the dome was constructed that from looking upward the dome itself appeared to float entirely detached from the building itself.(an effect I got to see for myself and is quite a magnificent and eerie sight.) The Arabs were so impressed by it and other byzantine churches they actually commissioned byzantine artists to decorate the Dome of the rock.

It seems to me there more looking for an excuse not to, then straight up saying why they don't want to
 
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SigurdStormhand

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I've always accepted that the "Constantinople" Temple Holding in Constantinople is the Hagia Sophia, just like I accept that the "Rome" Holding in Rome is actually St. John Lateran.

The point here is not that the Hagia Sophia is not "in the game" in some forem, the point is that it is a Great Wonder, and in fact the entire City of Constantinople is a Great Wonder (I made a list of all the things it contains in another thread).

Constantinople is arguably THE greatest city in Christendom if not the world before 1204, but it gets no Wonder whilst Alexandria gets its ruined Lighthouse and Stonehenge is blocking Salisbury Cathedral from being built in Wiltshire.
 

Wenceslaus II.

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