Come on devs, Ring Worlds are NOT the reason tech rush is so OP.

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Apollo1784

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You realise in the post immediately above yours I stated that we are working on the AI and that we're not planning on nerfing ringworlds?
You realize all of the stellaris devs have been saying that for years right? Its patch after patch I get to hear these supposed improvements are coming.Just two more weeks guys!
Make sure to bring this comment up again when you guys cry about forum toxicity. How is it even possible that the creator of star net AI made a highly effective and competent AI that doesnt cheat FOR FREE, yet a multi-million dollar company cant do it over the course of the entire game's history?
 
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Ferrus Animus

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To be honest, I wonder what some expect from the developers. Of course every improvement of the AI is desirable, but an AI that can compete with a human being is extremely difficult to program. If the Stellaris developers could do it that easily, you wouldn't be a Stellaris developer but would work on Skynet at Google & Co. Sometimes I have the feeling that some don't even know what you're asking for. In any case, I would like to thank the developers for their work and I am grateful for every improvement, but I do not expect miracles.

I find it always peculiar how someone arguing that point adds some phrases about "competetive", "as good as a human player" and such which literally nobody has asked for before that.
Currently we have an AI that functionally does not do science and regularly falls apart due to not understanting how planet specializations and industry districts interact.
We want better than that.

The AI doesn't need to be competetive, it needs to be competent. When told to build a forge world it should build a forge world if we use automation, and if it's another empire it should grow, develop and progress without self-destroying.
I don't care if the AI needs 200 years to get mostly through the tech tree, but I want it to be able to do that.

And you know what's funny? In many versions of the game the AI could do that and I have even seen individual AIs being competetive. So we're very much demanding the possible.
 
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KNakamura

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You realize all of the stellaris devs have been saying that for years right? Its patch after patch I get to hear these supposed improvements are coming.Just two more weeks guys!
Make sure to bring this comment up again when you guys cry about forum toxicity. How is it even possible that the creator of star net AI made a highly effective and competent AI that doesnt cheat FOR FREE, yet a multi-million dollar company cant do it over the course of the entire game's history?

Because there is a considerably lower bar for a modder to make a mod such as Star Net or "perfectly balanced" than it is for the base game, which has other priories.
 
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Apollo1784

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Because there is a considerably lower bar for a modder to make a mod such as Star Net or "perfectly balanced" than it is for the base game, which has other priories.
the other priorities that end up failing anyways because the AI cannot handle them?
 
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Apollo1784

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.. the other priorities in game design goals, which a modder can cheerfully ignore. (And StarNet and "perfectly balanced" *do*)
youre missing the point I'm trying to make. All the other priorities mean nothing if the AI cannot effectively interact with the rest of the game. Yes i understand your point but as others have stated the AI has been in a playable state before so it really is bewildering how bad of a state it currently is in
 
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Blackadder23

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Like Remnants already is such a start, except you practically don't start on a relic world but a normal world that uses relic world graphics. The main difference to a normal planet start is that once you reach a certain tech level you can press a button to get an Ecumenopolis without the ascension perk.
That's not quite true. There are also a bunch of blockers you can clear for (almost) free techs.
 

Blackadder23

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So I strongly oppose Paradox putting the priority on balancing the tech boom phenomenon, emphasizing my stance that the basics are the stuff they need to get right, and this is why:


In this video Stefan builds a Dyson site in year 66, using a Driven Assimilator build, but only achieves research of 2000 per month in the 2240s or so. Actually, that absolute number isn't important, so let's skip over it.

What is important is that in order to achieve that, the enabling factors are problems completely unrelated to tech which are designed into the game and are borderline exploits.

The first design issue: For machine empires, research is a secondary resource. The primary resource is energy, the second is research.
For the regular empires, research is a quaternary resource - research production requires energy credits, then food (for pops) and minerals, then consumer goods.

The second design issue: Why is that Stefan can still produce research, which is a secondary resource of energy, despite his energy income being zero and negative?
And why don't the resources become increasingly more negative, such that quickly selling off resources for a brief surplus isn't viable at all? Why doesn't the player go into significant amounts of debt?

The third design issue: The infinite, resources from nowhere, market. The internal market is what makes the build - the galactic market doesn't get founded until the end of the video. This non-conservation of matter, where your production doesn't actually mean anything, has been an issue in Stellaris since the market mechanic was first introduced.

The fourth design issue is that the game design has fallen into a trap of making the game as convoluted as possible, with so many 'poison choices', while also making the gameplay shallow. The issue here is that the AI can't play the game well because the game is designed to be convoluted and not as efficient as it needs to be for the AI to play the game well.

Edit: Ooops I forgot the fifth design issue: Why is it that the strata of machine pops just doesn't matter? Stefan can easily swap his researchers and technicians on-demand, while for a regular empire, this isn't the case.

So the way it should work: It shouldn't be possible to produce a secondary resource (like research) without having enough of the primary resource from which the secondary is derived. That's the whole foundation of the streaming economy that Stellaris has. If energy is trickling in, then every derived resource, including research should be reduced to a trickle.

An important and powerful resource (like research) should have the same requirements for every empire. It shouldn't require two more steps in the production chain for a regular empire to produce it compared to a gestalt consciousness.

It shouldn't be possible to sustain a deficit economy - resources should accumulate below zero.

The market should reflect actual, tangible resources, which come from somewhere allocated on the map. This is a whole other issue that really deserves its own thread.
I agree that the internal market should be abolished. Just GIVE the AI nations as many freebie resources as they need to prop them up, since a working AI appears to be an impossible dream, and force human players to actually develop their nations intelligently. That will put an end to nauseating cheese such as this.
 
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Apollo1784

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I agree that the internal market should be abolished. Just GIVE the AI nations as many freebie resources as they need to prop them up, since a working AI appears to be an impossible dream, and force human players to actually develop their nations intelligently. That will put an end to nauseating cheese such as this.
They should just ask the big modders to help them at this point.
 

Blackadder23

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You realize all of the stellaris devs have been saying that for years right? Its patch after patch I get to hear these supposed improvements are coming.Just two more weeks guys!
Make sure to bring this comment up again when you guys cry about forum toxicity. How is it even possible that the creator of star net AI made a highly effective and competent AI that doesnt cheat FOR FREE, yet a multi-million dollar company cant do it over the course of the entire game's history?
Because what you consider a disadvantage (not working for a for profit company) is actually an advantage (not having to worry about commercial considerations or getting "buy in" from God knows how many numbskulls).
 
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Apollo1784

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Because what you consider a disadvantage (not working for a for profit company) is actually an advantage (not having to worry about commercial considerations or getting "buy in" from God knows how many numbskulls).
So is the for profit company not supposed to put out a working product?
 
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Meebleborp

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The slider doesn't solve the issue because it is a linear increase accross the board.
The issue is the Gap between each tech tiers seems to not increase enough compare to how each lab tier increase research.

I don't have numbers.

Well, about those numbers... Lab tier increases are also linear, as you get the same amount of Reseacher jobs as you would if you built another basic lab. The trade-off is their use of strategic resources in place of an extra building slot. Unless you have some crazy planet modifiers, it's usually best to not even upgrade labs until you've completely run out of planets to put new ones on. So if anything higher tier labs could use a buff.

If you want to blame something for tech speeding up over time, instead look at the steady increases to research output gained from techs themselves, in addition to overall research speed bonuses from various sources.

In order to keep tech speed more steady, you could increase later tier tech costs to compensate, but this only makes rushing for those research speed techs an even more powerful strategy. At least x2 tech cost has the side effect of the AI being able to threaten a tech rushing player for a longer period of time. With this solution, that player can still get ahead in tech by enough to be untouchable very early on, and in fact is even more incentivized to do so because they know research is going to slow down significantly if they do not.

A different option would be to remove or tone down most of the boosts in question, but that wildly imbalances research boosting civics/traits/etc. - again in favor of empires that focus on tech. At least right now these boosts help to close the gap between your average empire and a Technocracy a bit.

A much more elegant solution would be to increase tech costs across the board, while also taking steps to ensure the AI does not fall as far behind as it currently does. This both extends the period of time in which tech rushing is risky, and the period in which AI empires are able to stay relevant overall.
 

FlyingPhoenix

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Lithoid + Hivemind + Technocracy. No food, no consumer goods, only resources are Minerals, Alloys, Science.
So a modded/non-vanilla playthrough, in other words?

Is this the build that the devs are chasing, an impossible balancing project?
A much more elegant solution would be to increase tech costs across the board, while also taking steps to ensure the AI does not fall as far behind as it currently does. This both extends the period of time in which tech rushing is risky, and the period in which AI empires are able to stay relevant overall.
In a strategy game like Stellaris, there is a triangle of focus and investment between military, economy and technology. If you invest in one area, you're not investing in another, and there is an opportunity cost and a benefit to investment in each area. Generally, the military investment allows you to conquer your opponents or defend your own stuff from raids/harassment, the economy allows you to boom, the tech allows you to progress.

At the moment, the AI invests its early economy into a fleet in a kind of naive turtle paradigm. The fleet is not used to the AI's advantage, but to dissuade other empires from attacking the AI, which doesn't pay off because the fleet isn't used to get a return on investment. This has the effect that the AI empires drop off quite quickly when compared to a human player who successfully rushes an AI, or eco-booms or tech-booms and gets benefits later.

Now, your elegant solution would have two main effects:

1) Increasing tech costs reduces the cost-benefit of investment in technology, so technology investments accrue benefits at a lesser rate than currently.
2) Forcing AI to build more technology shifts the focus of its investment from the military and economy.

Combined, we see that this elegant solution is not so elegant nor a solution, because it means that the AI empires get less bang-for-their-buck from investing in tech, meaning that their investment isn't paying off as quickly as the current situation while diverting resources from their fleet into other areas, primarily into tech. All that happens is that they are more susceptible to an eco-boom followed by a military invasion which is how I predict the meta would adjust if that change was made.
 
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Carl_Bar

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The thing about that is, if people feel tech speed is an issue it is always possible to simply increase the tech cost to x2 or something. Yes, this is unbalanced, but not much more than the game currently is on x1. AI empires are crushed by mid/end game events either way, so in single player games it mostly just effects the player.

As it is now, 0.75x is a lot more popular in multiplayer games than x1. If tech were slowed considerably, you could see a move to 0.5 or even lower. Perhaps this would end up fine, but it does go to show that there are widely different opinions on the issue - probably why the tech cost slider exists in the first place.

I think someone else addressed this a bit later, (quoted below as there's stuff i want to address in it as well), well enough but to comment on the slider point. Sure you can drop the slider, but then your playing outside the defaults and you'd be expected to drop the endgame year slider and mid game year slider at the same time and mess with other settings. My point was to show how it's trivial for a player to get through the tech tree well ahead of what the default settings assume will be the case.

The slider doesn't solve the issue because it is a linear increase accross the board.
The issue is the Gap between each tech tiers seems to not increase enough compare to how each lab tier increase research.

I don't have numbers.

I'm actually working on getting numbers right now :).

I don't want to harp on this too much, so I will just say the existence of successful AI mods like Starnet pretty much invalidates your entire argument. It is hard to say 'this isn't possible' when it has been shown to be just that.

Bullcrap. Sit down and listen to how many hours was put into the Q&A of Starnet. Remember Alfray Stryke is doing that phase in house at PDX right now, while he's doing that the 2 programmers working o it still have to be kept employed and the lead developer still has to devote some of his time, (for which hes being paid) to oversight as well. They all need office space and the utilities costs that go with that. None of this is minimum wage job, you quickly start to get budgets for replicating that work that are really huge, (easily over 100K USD, convert to your local currency as you wish, GBP for me). Thats a big amount of money even for an AAA full game development budget. A smaller DLC budget or free maintenance budget is even less. Now throw in the bureaucratic inefficiencies that affect any group working on somthing over a lone person and it gets even worse. And where just looking at pure Q&A time.

Developing a good AI for any game, (I've heard several AI modders for several games over the years talk about their project with similar or worse time input comments involved than starnet), is a lengthy and involved process with significant costs if done with paid workers. people really underestimate how much effort is involved because modders don't work like a regular company. That 1,000 hours of time on Q&A for starnet with 8 hour days 5 days a week work schedule is 6 months with no vacation time.
 
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You realize all of the stellaris devs have been saying that for years right? Its patch after patch I get to hear these supposed improvements are coming.Just two more weeks guys!
Make sure to bring this comment up again when you guys cry about forum toxicity. How is it even possible that the creator of star net AI made a highly effective and competent AI that doesnt cheat FOR FREE, yet a multi-million dollar company cant do it over the course of the entire game's history?
Starnet is competitive with a skilled player, sure. But that's also why it absolutely can't be just transported to vanilla. Starnet would roflstomp all over a new or casual player even on ensign difficulty, likely turning them away from the game and ensuring they never play Stellaris again if it was part of the baseline game.
Any AI developed by Paradox has to somehow be accommodating of all possible player skill levels, which is VASTLY more difficult than Starnet's design goal.
 
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Starnet is competitive with a skilled player, sure. But that's also why it absolutely can't be just transported to vanilla. Starnet would roflstomp all over a new or casual player even on ensign difficulty, likely turning them away from the game and ensuring they never play Stellaris again if it was part of the baseline game.
Any AI developed by Paradox has to somehow be accommodating of all possible player skill levels, which is VASTLY more difficult than Starnet's design goal.
Good AI never hurt any game in the history of gaming. Accommodation of newer players can and should be done by providing them with bonuses on lower levels of difficulty.
 
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Good AI never hurt any game in the history of gaming. Accommodation of newer players can and should be done by providing them with bonuses on lower levels of difficulty.
I really disagree here. Yeah strong AIs are good for replayability and can prolong the life time of a game, but not really for the average player.
Just providing flat Ressource buffs will not mean people know how to use them. Pretty much the same as for the AI.

Paradox caters to a rather niche market with most of their games and a strong AI (combined with no tutorials) will turn off lots of people. It's not something like Dark Souls. The forums aren't really the place to get an overview about the player base because most of the people here will be on the better side of the player base. The people who come here and ask for help with X or Y or even complain that they are getting killed by the grey tempest or Khan are probably the base Stellaris player.
 
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There should be some sort of arrangement possible that would let a company solicit the help of unpaid volunteers (modders) directly towards improving the base game. So much free, enthusiastic manpower just waiting to be put to good use!

Is this even possible? (@Alfray Stryke)