Combining TTS - target tracking systems?

Combining TTS - target tracking systems?

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I'm curious as to the mechanics on multiple TTS. I read somewhere some of the other equipment is additive and yet some things like the heat exchangers are multiplicative. Guess its weaker using multiple exchangers. Does anyone know how multiple TTS work? Curious since I couldn't find anything on google.

Finding heat banks critical, one of the really rare equipment I'm always short on.
 

Doctor Machete

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It's like you've read. If TEX were additive then they'd be OP in many heavier setups, while for TTX you cannot surpass your maximum accuracy, they only serve to negate accuracy penalties.

TEX are inferior to DHS in most cases, they're mostly for when you have not enough of these or you enter crit slot limitations.

Heat Banks, on the other side, are quite bad imo compared to both DHS/TEX, unless you go for an overheat kind of setup, in which case they're quite good.
 

MasterBLB

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They are multiplicative, so two 20% thermal would:
Code:
ReducedHeat = InitialWeaponHeat * 0.8 * 0.8
According to many designs I made in my tool it turned out that 2 thermal exchangers ++ (20%) are optimal, more than that are rather waste of tonnage.
 

Insahnity

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TEX are inferior to DHS in most cases, they're mostly for when you have not enough of these or you enter crit slot limitations.
There's actually a threshold where TEX overtakes SHS (and DHS).

A TEX is 4 tonnes. 4xSHS also weighs 4 tonnes, and disperses 12 heat. If you are pushing out more than 60 heat then 20% of 60+ heat= more than 12 heat dissipated. The threshold goes up for DHS, you need to be pushing out 120 heat per strike to make TEX overtake it. Assault level energy platforms definitely benefit from TEXs. Practically speaking, you won't see TEXs on anything less than heavy mechs (both available tonnage and you just aren't pushing out enough heat to warrant it).

It also fails to account for martian/lunar biomes, where HSs are severely gimped, whereas TEX continue to run at full efficiency. However, due to diminishing returns, more than 2 or 3 stops being effective, and in practice, I have tried all TEX setups, all DHS setups, and the best ones for heat management use both.

Heat Banks, on the other side, are quite bad imo compared to both DHS/TEX, unless you go for an overheat kind of setup, in which case they're quite good.
Heat banks are niche, primarily as a trainer, inexperienced human players who still don't have heat management down can get a margin of error for not a lot of tonnage. Once you have learned heat management, they are relegated to use in difficult biomes like lunar, or I'm guessing PVP skirmishes against someone trying to cook you to death with inferno missiles as a way of defeating you.
 

Prussian Havoc

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....Once you have learned heat management, they are relegated to use in difficult biomes like lunar, or I'm guessing PVP skirmishes against someone trying to cook you to death with inferno missiles as a way of defeating you.
Inferno Missiles, indeed all of the Heavy Metal Weapons are unavailable in BATTLETECH Multiplayer.
 

Doctor Machete

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There's actually a threshold where TEX overtakes SHS (and DHS).
Yeah, I know. That's why I show TEX efficiency in my custom made planner, also taking into account the biome. But for me it is only a reference. Sometimes I have to use very low efficiency just because there is no other way due to lack of room for more DHS.



The WEAP/TEX/HS and WEAP/TEX/DHS columns tells the TEX efficiency (the lower the better), although to make things simple I only work with one kind of TEX at a time.

For example here, if I could I'd replace 1xTEX++ for 4xDHS, even if it is less efficient.

A TEX is 4 tonnes. 4xSHS also weighs 4 tonnes, and disperses 12 heat. If you are pushing out more than 60 heat then 20% of 60+ heat= more than 12 heat dissipated. The threshold goes up for DHS, you need to be pushing out 120 heat per strike to make TEX overtake it. Assault level energy platforms definitely benefit from TEXs. Practically speaking, you won't see TEXs on anything less than heavy mechs (both available tonnage and you just aren't pushing out enough heat to warrant it).

It also fails to account for martian/lunar biomes, where HSs are severely gimped, whereas TEX continue to run at full efficiency. However, due to diminishing returns, more than 2 or 3 stops being effective, and in practice, I have tried all TEX setups, all DHS setups, and the best ones for heat management use both.
First, remember I talked about DHS, not HS. If you have TEX but not DHS then that's a very different story.


You forget two very important things:
- TEX don't help you with heat from jumps, and JJs are not necessary but still are hugely beneficial for most non light mech setups. DHS do help with any kind of heat.
- If you don't fire at all or you just don't alpha (firing only some weapons) then TEX become less effective (or even completely ineffective) those turns you're not firing or firing less weapons.

In other words: even if sometimes DHS can be less efficient they're much more flexible and way more dependable, granted you have space for them. And most of the time TEX are used is because there is no alternative.

For example, let's take this setup:

The same setup now in lunar biome:

And I have no room to replace one TEX++ with four more DHS but let's say I could:

The second one is less efficient in principle, but the difference is quite small in Lunar, even smaller when jumping and the second one is going to be much more flexible and reliable. You'll have much better cooling when not firing and perhaps the same with just one or two less weapons fired, because even with TEX you're going to run pretty hot.

That 47 heat when jumping max distance + fire is barely lower than 49 from the one with one less TEX and you'll be cooling considerably lower when not alpha, so you may want to drop your damage a notch too. What happens if you fire one less MPL?



To be fair there is another one factor playing in favor of your argument which maybe you haven't think of. And that is TEX work per individual weapon and then heat is rounded down, meaning some weapons benefit a lot more than others. For example with a ML you'll get a 17% heat reduction from a single regular TEX 10%.


Heat banks are niche, primarily as a trainer, inexperienced human players who still don't have heat management down can get a margin of error for not a lot of tonnage. Once you have learned heat management, they are relegated to use in difficult biomes like lunar, or I'm guessing PVP skirmishes against someone trying to cook you to death with inferno missiles as a way of defeating you.
IMO banks, and only Banks++, are useful for very niche overheat setups, because ++ banks are quite rare too and they grant you 15% max overheat threshold and 30% max shutdown threshold, so they're only useful (compared to DHS) if you want to really advantage of that +30% overheat maximum, that meaning you have the setup math out to generate around 129 heat alpha. And even then they're tuned to just one biome and you still need to get rid of that heat, which will be slower because that's one ton you didn't use for extra cooling.

Now, if you don't have DHS or TEX and you have one Bank++ around that's another very niche scenario I can think of, but besides that they're not good. They don't do absolutely nothing, they don't help at all unless you're above your overheat level plus what you'll get with a DHS/HS.
 

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Because of not using your built calculator, what would happen if you are short on time, short on equipment and just salvaged the ppc awesome. You use the 1 day in mech bay to modify your new awesome with a TEX instead of 4 standard heat sinks. Awesome does not jump and generates high alpha heat.
 

Doctor Machete

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Because of not using your built calculator, what would happen if you are short on time, short on equipment and just salvaged the ppc awesome. You use the 1 day in mech bay to modify your new awesome with a TEX instead of 4 standard heat sinks. Awesome does not jump and generates high alpha heat.
You'll generate 12 heat alpha instead of 21 (ignoring the SL in both cases) in neutral biome. I'd do it, and probably another TEX++ too replacing four more HS if in a Martian/Lunar biome, but not a third one (although in principle that still would be more efficient). Even without JJs you don't want to lose too much heat sinking capability for when you're not firing.
 

MasterBLB

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++ banks are quite rare too and they grant you 15% max overheat threshold and 30% max shutdown threshold, so they're only useful (compared to DHS) if you want to really advantage of that +30% overheat maximum
Incorrect @Doctor Machete - bank++ provides flat +15 threshold and +30 max heat bonuses, not percentage-based.
 

Doctor Machete

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Incorrect @Doctor Machete - bank++ provides flat +15 threshold and +30 max heat bonuses, not percentage-based.
You're right, I didn't express myself correctly (shouldn't have added those percentage symbols) but I'm aware of what you say. With a Bank++ you only get +9 OH threshold compared to 1xDHS in a single turn and only +3 OH threshold over two turns.
 

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It's like you've read. If TEX were additive then they'd be OP in many heavier setups, while for TTX you cannot surpass your maximum accuracy, they only serve to negate accuracy penalties.

TEX are inferior to DHS in most cases, they're mostly for when you have not enough of these or you enter crit slot limitations.

Heat Banks, on the other side, are quite bad imo compared to both DHS/TEX, unless you go for an overheat kind of setup, in which case they're quite good.

I wouldnt say heat banks to be bad at all.... with Guts oriented Pilot, two Heat Banks +++ you can have 90 extra heat capacity... which is great for certain type of mechs with lots of hitting power (LPL++)... you can fire two- three turns, then spend a turn cooling down, then fire again... (works best with fast Mediums, so you can actually use evasion pips to your advantage, fire few times, then run away with high evasion - Mechwarrior style Boom and Zoom...)
 

Doctor Machete

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I wouldnt say heat banks to be bad at all.... with Guts oriented Pilot, two Heat Banks +++ you can have 90 extra heat capacity... which is great for certain type of mechs with lots of hitting power (LPL++)... you can fire two- three turns, then spend a turn cooling down, then fire again... (works best with fast Mediums, so you can actually use evasion pips to your advantage, fire few times, then run away with high evasion - Mechwarrior style Boom and Zoom...)
Then tell me some example of practical build based on that concept, but in principle I don't see that working very well. That ignoring CV, which while for heavier mechs I don't think it's good (only a bit more than one DHS worth of sustainable cooling) for lighter mechs is definitely better. But you're sacrificing your lvl 8 skill slot for CV instead of AP, very good up to heavy mechs, and exceptional for the tactic you describe used along JJs.

Over two turns the Bank++ has a very small advantage over the DHS, and over three turns is already at disadvantage, because the DHS can dissipate 18 heat and the Bank stores up to 15 extra heat before OH. And if you add CV into the mix it will help the DHS based one too. And you'll be cooling down slower those turns in between the attacks without the extra DHS.


Edit:

Another point I forgot: you now have up to 15 more heat before OH (per Bank++) but that small advantage over two turns (15 vs 12 heat per bank/dhs) only works if you actually do get very close to the OH limit. With two Banks++ that's 90+30 = 120 OH cap. If it happens you didn't generate that much but -let's say- "only" 112 heat then it turns out the DHS has the advantage too, very small but advantage after all, and you'll be cooling down faster afterwards, while with Banks you'll have more heat to deal with which in addition will be slower to cool down by your remaining heatsinks.

So you need a very finely tuned setup, for one very specific biome, and even then things like walk + brace instead of sprinting (slightly less heat generated) in a previous turn can mess with it.
 
Last edited:

foamyesque

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Yeah, banks are pretty garbage. Tried some on my first playthrough, but the math just doesn't support them over SHS, let alone DHS or TEXs. If you're running ridiculously hot and they buy you an extra alpha before hitting the heat thresholds I guess there's a niche use? Or to mess with people trying to overheat you? But in general, sinks win.

EDI:

TTSes, however, stack and are awesome. I had a nice realization when I realized that you can entirely negate the recoil penalty of a UAC/20, and therefore be able to fire it every turn, by putting two +3 ballistic TTSes in. You don't get the one-shot punch of having two UAC/20s, but it's substantially less tonnage and you can fire more than every-other-round.