Pretty sure it was around second artillery type... so think it was around tech 10... could be a bit earlier could be a bit later... But it was not late in the game... haven´t had cannons for that long of a period but they weren´t new
Combat Witdh
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Wow...you really wrote a lot here......well, the thing is I'm in a war with the mamlucks, the supply limit sucks and they have cav double the infantry.......even thou I almost have triple of the forces I should easily win BUT....everytime we battle I lost not less than 7-9K inf....since you say at tech 13 the cannons are almost useless I'll leave them sieging, and now I'm thinking, the infantry put in the second row do no damage, right? but can they actually (during the battle) come to the first row if a unit gets completly destroyed? And if not, or this doesn't really happen often why should I put the inf behind?
I understand this applies to the standard armies and it states in the spreadsheet that a horde should ignore this entirely, but what about nations like Hungary that get a cavalry bonus?
How should i modify my stack composition to take advantage of the cavalry bonus?
Or should i ignore it and just count it as an advantage for my cavalry in the standard lineup?
depends whether it´s combat effect or ratio... And still... Money are one of the bigger restrictions
if it´s ratio you should try to get some more into, just like horde is best with more horses (since cav is quite effective) if it´s just effect you can get by with normal ratio... unless you have extra ducats, then it could be good taking advantage of it and get your army an extra punch it´s not something set in stone really
The google doc does reference this at row 6 column G:
"Also, if you have insane cavalry combat ability (eg. Poland) you can consider adding more cavalry."
To take full advantage of a large combat bonus like that of Hungary or Poland, you should stack more and more modifiers. For cavalry this means taking Aristocratic, Quality, and Espionage ideas and maintaining a prosperous Cossacks estate.
When the unit infront of him retreats the one in the back will take his spot. The best is don't send so many units that they'll go to the backrow, since they still take morale damage.
To answer you question i'll divide it.
Artillery start being effective at 13 specifically. They are still under powered because of the HUGE upgrade at 16. Depending on who I am playing I will have art in my comp at 13. If its the Ottomans... always. if it was an OPM in a hard start... well i might not be able to afford them. If I can I do. Maybe not every stack but i do.
As to inf from the back row going to the front. It doesn't need the annihilation of the unit (stack wipes are normally moral base not actual casualties). If the unit routes (the individual inf unit), the unit behind will step forward in its slot. Units in the back row do 50% damage. a unit in the back row is generally better then not engaged at all (in reserves sitting taking moral damage) or just not there, as they will do damage.
What nation are you playing? Ottomans? This might help answer some specific questions to your issue. also, game date, ideas, their current ideas etc. Screen shots help.
Also Mamluks like Calvary. Their ideas support it with a 10% Cav combat ability at game start. Them being Sunni (more horses in army before inssufuciant support) and quite wealthy at start allows them to field a hard hitting army in the early game. Like as Ottos, I normally try and hit at tech 6 to their 5 (maybe after patch it will be 7 vs 6 due to the no reclaiming cores and having to spend admin and delaying -20 core cost) on the first war for the Lavant, which swings huge in my favor. This normally guts them hard enough and by the second war my army is that much bigger that I can roll them over (also I try and ignore Damascus in favor of Karak). Also having multiple units near each other going down the Lavant. I find this can work vs ottos late game also as it is not very wide and the forts are not in mountains (except Karak) and you can re-enforce heavily.
Lastly another big thing is going to be depleted troops. If they are not at full strength they will take a pounding. Swap some of the info from back line support units to keep the line full (I just swap inf units around as my stacks are almost always similar like 10/4/5 or 10/4/10 for capitals with 10/4/0 support units. I do this for almost all nations. I like fielding whole "units" , but yeah some start prohibit this as mentioned above. Or shift consolidate to have more full powered units.
.... wow wall of text.
I want to ask someting: is cavalary not useable in late game because of price or someting else
No, I'm not playing as the green blob, not really.....
https://imgur.com/a/VAqiX
I just forgot I have cossacks and +10% cavarly combat ability.....the screens will show you almost everything relevant
https://imgur.com/a/VAqiX
I just forgot I have cossacks and +10% cavarly combat ability.....the screens will show you almost everything relevant
Its usable its just that for the most part its not as cost effective (depending on which nation of course). I always run some but there is a good argument against it. this may change due to drilling and thus manpower being more valuable but depending on play style and goals this changes also. In a WC.... not so much as merc inf and reg art will be very potent and you will have no downtime between wars (regularly multiple wars at once). With a more limited game scope it changes the equation.
Nice. Love me a good Byz run.
What ideas have the mamluks picked?
Also you have quantity. Expect larger losses, just dog pile in. If they went defensive or Offensive or even quality you are def going to get more losses. Again play the re-enforce game. Do you have 3rd rome? you can also use the icon for more disc.
Be default you should have "equal" troops with bonuses (both have +5 disc, +10% calv with your cossacs). That then matters morale due to piety and individual ideas (your quantity vs their what). Also to note whats their mil tech? are you behind on mil or both at 13 (I assume uyour on 13 due to earlier comments) or did they somehow ahead of time to tech 15?.
I'm at 13 mil tech while they are at 12, they fully unlocked defensive, and that's a little annoying for me, I have 105% discipline and 3,75/80 morale, they have 105% discpline but 4,3 morale
Yes I have all DLC, I was trying to max the patriarch autority but I think that +5% discpline is needed
Yes I have all DLC, I was trying to max the patriarch autority but I think that +5% discpline is needed
yeah tough war, burn it for the 5% disc, maybe grab the moral adviser off the Cossacks to to equal the moral. Remember that war wise its just some manpower which will be replaced by the +10% manpower recovery of the icon will "replace" the lost manpower from the PA, till you can pump it up again.
your comp looks like mine at that point except i go 14 inf/4 calv/10 cannons. A big thing as said above is shift consolidate the day before engagement if you can. All those not full strength troops will hurt (especially the cannons) if they (the mamluks) are at full strength units. Also if they are heavily flanking you with all that cav.... ouch. I might even pile in a little early once they are locked in, you may get hammered for a couple rounds but once your second unit enters (doesnt even have to have cannons - could be another 13 inf/4calv or just more inf) it will fill it in rather nice and with fresh moral. This is very true due to the large moral difference.
Also on that note keep the unit siegeing with full strength cannons by moving them around. keep it at 10 to keep the siege bonus. if it gets lowered your going to have to wit till they re-enforce, thus delaying your siege.
your comp looks like mine at that point except i go 14 inf/4 calv/10 cannons. A big thing as said above is shift consolidate the day before engagement if you can. All those not full strength troops will hurt (especially the cannons) if they (the mamluks) are at full strength units. Also if they are heavily flanking you with all that cav.... ouch. I might even pile in a little early once they are locked in, you may get hammered for a couple rounds but once your second unit enters (doesnt even have to have cannons - could be another 13 inf/4calv or just more inf) it will fill it in rather nice and with fresh moral. This is very true due to the large moral difference.
Also on that note keep the unit siegeing with full strength cannons by moving them around. keep it at 10 to keep the siege bonus. if it gets lowered your going to have to wit till they re-enforce, thus delaying your siege.
Late game lots of battle will be full CW vs full CW. In that case the flanking doesn't do very much. The reason why cav are good in early to mid game, is they can hit/flank without getting hit. If a cav is getting hit inf is just more cost efficient than inf. Unless you got some decent cav combat ability.
imo your problem is your crap general. Decent at sieging, but crap at battles. It's almost the same as fighting without a general
Also muslim units are better eastern units in this stage
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yea but... do they have lower pips? Or just price problem? because I am ok with money if it means I gonna kill more when enemy numbers reduced
Cavalry have less fire pips but more shock and morale pips. The total number of pips is dependent on the tech level and the tech group. At the very end of the game infantry has more pips in all groups, even Nomads.
Coupled with the fact that since fire is first and if we are at max combat width then the cavalry unit will most likely not be at full strength during even the first shock phase thus lowering their value.
BUT pips isnt everything. Multipliers are a VERY big factor and the cavalry shock multipliers are very large. This is the main reason they outperform infantry (especially in Cav nations) in shock (even at end game cavalry is double infantry in shock multiplier - where inf has about 3 fire vs 1 for cav). Its also why cannons at 16 are huge as they get a 1.0x increase in their fire multiplier (bringing them to 2.4) and a new unit with better pips.
BUT pips isnt everything. Multipliers are a VERY big factor and the cavalry shock multipliers are very large. This is the main reason they outperform infantry (especially in Cav nations) in shock (even at end game cavalry is double infantry in shock multiplier - where inf has about 3 fire vs 1 for cav). Its also why cannons at 16 are huge as they get a 1.0x increase in their fire multiplier (bringing them to 2.4) and a new unit with better pips.
Biggest issue is fire phase preceding shock phase.
Early game it's not much of an issue, they won't take that hard of a hit. Shock phase is also A LOT stronger than fire at that point. Lategame a lot of people run around with no cav at all because Fire pips have taken over shock pips a long time ago and that first round counts more.
Not to mention that cannons will shred frontlines anyways so it's about who gets through first. Flanking is a secondary concern.
Matters a bit less in SP because you'll rarely fight symmetrical wars lategame and outflanking is still possible, but then again, squeezing out every bit of an edge you can get is what most rounds are about. Just because something might not matter in a lot of runs doesn't mean it's information you can neglect.
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So artillery is useless in combat from the back row until it gets at least 2 fire pips? So that first type really is just for sieging, then.
Not useless. It does deal offensive damage. It's just the transfer of def power doesn't exist because it gets rounded down and its pips are laughable.
So... almost useless. But not exclusively for sieging. They do deal damage.
Rule of thumb: As long as you can't afford to fill CW, forget about cannons until tech