Combat Witdh

[Rexos]

Well, I know that the CW is how many units(of 1000 each) can stand and effectly fight into a battle.....so for example if I have a CW of 30, and an army of 50K, almost half of my forces would be useless in battle....right?
What I also know is that, infantry and cavarly go in the first row, 26 infantry and 4 cavarly(just to say) and the cannons go behind, in the second row, 30 of them for a total of 60K(at its best), of course infantry and cavarly can't go behind and it is the same for cannons.......NOW.....I want to know, is what I just written here all correct? THEN, what is the best formation?, you can fill the CW perfectly if you use a tons of cannons leaving infantry and cavarly behind.....
Also I'd like to know , it is really true that the remaning forces out of the CW are useless?

 

[Demege123]

Well, I know that the CW is how many units(of 1000 each) can stand and effectly fight into a battle.....so for example if I have a CW of 30, and an army of 50K, almost half of my forces would be useless in battle....right?
What I also know is that, infantry and cavarly go in the first row, 26 infantry and 4 cavarly(just to say) and the cannons go behind, in the second row, 30 of them for a total of 60K(at its best), of course infantry and cavarly can't go behind and it is the same for cannons.......NOW.....I want to know, is what I just written here all correct? THEN, what is the best formation?, you can fill the CW perfectly if you use a tons of cannons leaving infantry and cavarly behind.....
Also I'd like to know , it is really true that the remaning forces out of the CW are useless?

Ideal army composition and unit types
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ITH6oNHsIlVHo2LJnR92wP5LEKiON0k2rZJ82YbYaB0/edit#gid=0

 

[Rexos]

so....with tech 11(CW 27) I should put only 29 infantry and 4 of cavarly.....no cannons? I know early in the game the fire power it's not that great but....will you just leave an empty space in the second row that could, still, deal some damage?

 

[misiceman]

well assuming you have the full cannons then no things wont fill the back row but cavalry and inf will fill the back row if there is space. You are correct somewhat in that any "extra" beyond the combat width will not help which is why re-enforcing is so much stronger (especially cause of fresh moral units).

the wiki explains it perfectly. http://www.eu4wiki.com/Land_warfare#Combat_width

As to best formation that really depends on the type of army you have :

take the nations Poland vs Sweden as and example. Poland's NI lend hugely to large cav ratio vs Sweden liking infantry.

Now the time frame also really matters as early game calv is insanely powerful vs inf and if you can afford it can truly decimate non calv armies (assuming equal tactics). this will slowly change as NIs and pips get added (or get more insane - read: POLAND/HORDES). Most people outside hordes/Poland dont go heavy cav for the reason is you can field a larger army of non cav units.

The doc above works on the assumption you want to only use enough calv for flanking. This is nice in the late game but really in the early game its cost vs effectiveness. If you have an abundance of manpower but not cash in the early game cav is better than merc inf. the reverse merc it up. This will also change alot due to the drilling mechanics in the early-mid game because a large effective cav force can be crushing. Until about tech 16 (when cannons really take off - 13 they start actually doing something) your units still wont receive "that" much damage in the fire phase where then in shock your cav will do crushing damage.

In the early game "optimal combat width" is enemy wisth + extra flanking horses (usually 4 total). so that your undamaged calv decimates the inf on the flanks. This is due to most armies not actually reaching the combat with.

Late game Max inf width is generally used cause they are literally cannon fodder and the most cost effective (especially merc inf that just takes money to regenerate). Your cannons will do the brunt of your damage unmolested in the back row. Again this will change slightly due to which nation you play due to NIs.

 

[Rusky]

The cost does not justify the DMG you would do in tech 11. Your better off getting some extra Cav if you can afford it for that extra Shock dmg.
At tech 11, you should only have like 2 Cannons to help with sieges and that's it. And even then, the 2 cannons are a luxury that's far from needed unless your playing with a small rich nation, that has only one good stack to fight with cuz force limit, in which case you will want to make it hit as hard as you can.

 

[misiceman]

IMO before tech 13 cannons are siege units not combat units. Get the +5 on your "siegeing" stack if you can afford it (or as many as you can for a bonus) otherwise skip.

 

[Quaade]

it´s a difficult thing to answer... depends on money and such... had a recent run with austria where I used 8-10 cav and 28 infantry... were around 6-7 cav in front flanking infantry left and right... when I got a decent/good roll... Venice took 1.500 in damage each number... Sooo... imagine what happened to their 20k stack quite fast?... they work best in shock though, artillery in fire... I tend to go with 10/4 or 8/4 (if I have the money or want to pack an extra punch)... later on I go around 6-8 cav to 20 infantry and around 10-12 artillery... or a bit more depending on money... usually I end up, in total of outnumbering all others with cannons

also... no, they are not as useful anymore... they did some recent changes on how placement happens, can´t recall how exactly, but should make it better than before with redundant units

 

[Rexos]

Let's just say the money..."it is not a problem for now", I have 3 armies, 27K each(27 CW), and they all have the same formation 13(inf) 4(cav) 10(can), I just wanted to have the back row filled this way, but now that I read your comments I can see I didn't really make an effective formation, the tech right now it is 13, almost 14, since I'm byz I don't have really any good military ideas at all, and I only fully unlocked quantity, so no quality.....too many cannons, that's for sure but the 4 cav is a standard....I'll add more inf

well assuming you have the full cannons then no things wont fill the back row but cavalry and inf will fill the back row if there is space. You are correct somewhat in that any "extra" beyond the combat width will not help which is why re-enforcing is so much stronger (especially cause of fresh moral units).

I don't really get what you mean......by "full cannons" you mean that I have all the back row filled with cannons?, and then I know that, if you have too many infantry(cavarly) they'll end up in the back row, but they won't really be that good behind...right?

 

[Dominion]

One of the biggest problems cannons have at that stage of the game is that their pips don't translate to front row power because it gets rounded down, making them even weaker than you'd expect if you were purely looking at available numbers.

 

[Badesumofu]

Pips do not round down. It's the damage in fire phase that's get halved. Pips have 0 to do with it.

Cannons grant half their defensive pips to the unit in front. But it's half rounded down.

 

[Dominion]

Pips do not round down. It's the damage in fire phase that's get halved. Pips have 0 to do with it.

Taken from Zwirbaum's unit guide

Last thing to know, is that Artillery units contribute HALF of their defensive pips (shock/fire) to unit in front of them. One thing to know is that - in case of 1 defensive fire/shock pip, it'll provide no benefit to the unit in front. (Which means artillery will start to provide defensive benefits earliest at tech 16 with Chambered Demi Cannons and their 2 defensive fire pips.)

If you disagree with my statement I recommend you write that guy a PM and talk it out with him

 

[Zwirbaum]

Taken from Zwirbaum's unit guide


If you disagree with my statement I recommend you write that guy a PM and talk it out with him

Lesson for myself - don't post after waking up.

I did interpret your post as if you were talking about the fact that half damage from the back halves the fire pips, and as such it is not effective. If you meant the defensive pips, then yeah.

 

[Zwirbaum]

Cannons grant half their defensive pips to the unit in front. But it's half rounded down.

I did misinterpret somehow Dominions post - I thought he was refering to the backrow damage dealing.

 

[Dominion]

At least you made me start my Sunday with a laugh

Thanks for the guide by the way. One of the only 2 guides I consider essential for playing the game. Amazing text

 

[PhoenixG]

Let's just say the money..."it is not a problem for now", I have 3 armies, 27K each(27 CW), and they all have the same formation 13(inf) 4(cav) 10(can), I just wanted to have the back row filled this way, but now that I read your comments I can see I didn't really make an effective formation, the tech right now it is 13, almost 14, since I'm byz I don't have really any good military ideas at all, and I only fully unlocked quantity, so no quality.....too many cannons, that's for sure but the 4 cav is a standard....I'll add more inf

If you take out the money equation and your CW is 27. your stack would be 54K.. 27 front row (inf + cav) and 27 cannons. Like many said it's lots of money for not much punching power in this early stage. Although going full combat width cav value drops a bit, since they'll the ability to flank. No room to flank.

I don't really get what you mean......by "full cannons" you mean that I have all the back row filled with cannons?, and then I know that, if you have too many infantry(cavarly) they'll end up in the back row, but they won't really be that good behind...right?

If you have full back line of cannons, no inf/cav will be put on the back row. Unless you use two stack and one stack comes a day too late. First it fills the front row with inf matching the width of your enemy. Than the cav upto their flanking range. Than the front row part that does nothing. After that the back row with be filled with cannons. If than you still have free space in the back, inf/cav will fill those up.

 

[Dominion]

If you take out the money equation and your CW is 27. your stack would be 54K.. 27 front row (inf + cav) and 27 cannons. Like many said it's lots of money for not much punching power in this early stage. Although going full combat width cav value drops a bit, since they'll the ability to flank. No room to flank..

Your cav gets autodeployed in a pos where they are able to flank afaik. So if he runs with 15 into your 27 you'll get a center of 14/15 inf, then cav, then fill the rest with inf.

 

[PhoenixG]

eh just woke up. My head was stuck at full CW vs full CW

 

[Pintu]

Always this sleepy people


Thanks for sharing the guide tho, even if this is half in my mind while playing, its always good to have it written down somewhere to double check ^^

 

[Quaade]

I don't really get what you mean......by "full cannons" you mean that I have all the back row filled with cannons?, and then I know that, if you have too many infantry(cavarly) they'll end up in the back row, but they won't really be that good behind...right?

Full cannons is full back row, meaning full combat width... not all that can afford it, but well... You can do with less... Later tech I prefer to have around 1/2 or 2/3 cannons compared to inf... AND note... If supply limit can handle it... Having some "spare" infantry for combat width is adviseable... along with artillery... Like... CW is 27, having 30/6/20 could be a good ratio... Since you would be able to use the army more effectively for more battles (shift-k for full regiments while others reinforce)... The 6 cav will take up some spaces... So if supply is low in the area, you could have the optimal army for one battle (at 27) with 23/4/16 (or more art)...

Here is a fun note... Since I actually tested it and experienced it again quite recently... if you can afford it... having too many cannons can be quite effective... Attacked a stack of only cannons, 13k with an army with a decent ratio and outnumbering them and even defending in hills... They beat my army to a pulp... Why?... because the fire phase they dealt up to 6k every number tick, and this was relatively early game where cannons are "crap" as some would suggest... Cannons rule no matter what, they deal a heavy dose of damage and are quite effective...

Your cav gets autodeployed in a pos where they are able to flank afaik. So if he runs with 15 into your 27 you'll get a center of 14/15 inf, then cav, then fill the rest with inf.

Yup, cav is autodeployed... usually they are in the flanks but with my austria test game they actually were put around in many places not on the side... however, doesn´t harm you since their flanking and shock makes them able to reach further dealing massive damage

Always this sleepy people

Sundays... could be a night out before

 

[misiceman]

Here is a fun note... Since I actually tested it and experienced it again quite recently... if you can afford it... having too many cannons can be quite effective... Attacked a stack of only cannons, 13k with an army with a decent ratio and outnumbering them and even defending in hills... They beat my army to a pulp... Why?... because the fire phase they dealt up to 6k every number tick, and this was relatively early game where cannons are "crap" as some would suggest... Cannons rule no matter what, they deal a heavy dose of damage and are quite effective...

Was this at tech 13? I cant see that happening earlier due to lack of pips and fire multipliers barring you rolling 0 and them a 9 in the first fire phase. Which to be fair can happen and since they do full damage in the front row they could have decimated the chance for damage in the shock phase and kept plowing through.