Combat Tactics Questions.

[Palbulchul]

Say, in Team 1, I have 5x Shock Retinue + 4x Defence Retinue (1000 HI / 1000 PI) for all three flanks. In this case, my forces will activate Shield Wall during Skirmish phase, for instance. Is that correct?

Now, for Team 2, I have 5x Shock + 4x Defence for the center flank, 5x Cav Retinue (200 LC / 50 HC) in my left flank, and 3x Light Skirmish retinue for my right flank. How does the tactics work in this case?

P.S. I took Bavaria, and I didn't choose any cultural unit here just to see how the generic retinue tactics work.
P.S.2 Yes, I am aware that there is a simulator. Maybe better question would have been - is each flank independent from other flanks in regards to the available tactics activation. My impression from the tactics simulator was [they were not.]

 

[Andrew0Red]

Tactics from different flanks are independent.

Thus, a flank with Shock and Defense is highly likely to choose Shield Wall in Skirmish phase (Generic Tactic and the Archer tactic will also appear, as well as charges from the second time and on, though Shield Wall will always be the main tactic), and will choose the HI tactic, the P tactic or the hybrid HI+P tactic in Melee.

A flank with Cavalry Retinues will usually choose Disorganised Harass in Skirmish (too much LC, even with a 12+ Martial Commander), but is likely to charge fairly early. In melee, it will do LC tactic or HC tactic (I think those are the only two options).

The simulator is for one flank only.

 

[Palbulchul]

Tactics from different flanks are independent.

Thus, a flank with Shock and Defense is highly likely to choose Shield Wall in Skirmish phase (Generic Tactic and the Archer tactic will also appear, as well as charges from the second time and on, though Shield Wall will always be the main tactic), and will choose the HI tactic, the P tactic or the hybrid HI+P tactic in Melee.

A flank with Cavalry Retinues will usually choose Disorganised Harass in Skirmish (too much LC, even with a 12+ Martial Commander), but is likely to charge fairly early. In melee, it will do LC tactic or HC tactic (I think those are the only two options).

The simulator is for one flank only.

Thank you, sir!

P.S. Last, but not the least: when the CK2 wiki says "entire flank" what does that mean? All three flanks?

 

[Andrew0Red]

"entire flank"

Just one flank. Otherwise, why not say "all flanks"?

BTW, just in case: Mixing Shock and Defense Retinues is probably not what you want; it dilutes the tactics. Pure Defense is usually considered best (some cultures have it slightly different).

 

[Palbulchul]

Just one flank. Otherwise, why not say "all flanks"?

BTW, just in case: Mixing Shock and Defense Retinues is probably not what you want; it dilutes the tactics. Pure Defense is usually considered best (some cultures have it slightly different).

1. Again, thank you. And now that I think of it, yes it maks perfect sense.

2. I see.

Just ran the simulator. With Pikemen only retinue composition, I get ~60% shield wall during skirmish, then 77.14% force back.
With Pikemen + HI, I get some 95% shield wall during skirmish, but things are quite a bit murkier during melee phase. (force back happens at some 45% or so.)
The question is - is 20% slow advance that much of a detriment? I wouldn't know. (PI + HI had force back at 45%, advance at 20 and slow advance at 20, with the rest 10+% going to the religious fervor)

 

[Andrew0Red]

Let's compare 2 Shock, 2 Defense and Mix. In terms of Retinue Cap, they cost 1700, 1450 and 1575, so not too much difference, but the Pikes are slightly cheaper (A are 2 each, HI 3 and P 2.5).

In Melee Phase, 2 Shock get an average of 6361 attack and 1750 defense. (Assuming bland culture, 16+ martial, no traits.)
2 Defense get 7650 and 2400.
Mixed get 6220 and 2075. (Values read from bottom of the simulator.)

So Defense costs less Ret Cap, does most damage and has the most defense. If we compensate for the lower cost, Defense is obviously the better option in Melee.


In the Skirmish Phase ... These are not skirmish retinues, they are melee, so we just want to suffer as little as possible during the skirmish (read: roll Shield Wall for the +300/240% defense) and get to melee as fast as possible. Pure Shock or pure Defense rolls Shield Wall about 2/3rds of the time, mixed 95%. 95% is good while in the skirmish phase, but it means we are much less likely to roll a charge, thus spending more time in Skirmish.

For the second and subsequent Skirmish Phases, Shock are 45% likely to charge, Defense only 24% and mixed a paltry 11%, as you've already seen. That means we're mostly relying on the enemy to charge us, rather than doing it ourselves (unless we're pure Shock). Thankfully, AI army composition is all over the place, so usually they have reasonable Charge-rates.


Finally, we have the Pursuit Phase. Both retinues stink at this, but Defense is really bad at it. But this only occurs after the battle is over, so you should have already won. It does mean the army will be back for more if you don't win the war quickly, and it may bring reinforcements.

But over-all, Defense Retinues give you the highest chance of winning the battle in the first place, and if you're on the edge (i.e. not multi-emperor yet), that is what you need.

 

[Palbulchul]

Okay. Great. Now you convinced me.

So, say I form Pikemen front in the center flank. I want to have a cav flank. (which I will fill with knights). Should I use archers or Light Skirmish for the third flank? Or should I just get another Pikmen (or Knights) instead?

 

[Andrew0Red]

Hmm, what culture are you? Who cares - we just need to know what your Cultural Retinue is.

If we're just using stock retinues, then we could look at the Cavalry Retinue. 200/250 LC gives you the same Skirmish Attack as 100/250, since you get Disorganised Harass, not Harass... Yes, CavRet is that bad (12+ commander changes the cut-off, but can't save CavRet.). I haven't crushed numbers for [Light] Skirmish Retinue, but they're advised against.


Let's take a larger view of your army. Presumably you're Feudal or Merchant Republic, not Tribal or Nomadic. Your army consists of your retinue, your personal levies, your vassal levies and sometimes mercenaries and holy orders. Your total army is probably small enough that you'll combine everything into one army. Since your retinue is only so large, spreading it accross more than one flank will horribly imbalance your army, so we'll just keep the retinue in the centre, with personal levies on one flank and vassal levies in another (since you can custom-tailor your personal levies to suck less than AI ones; search for guides to developing Castles). (If using hired troops, it's probably best to have one flank hired, one flank retinue and levies in a third.)

Thus, your entire retinue usually goes in one flank, so we'll just stick with one type. (Exceptions abound, depending on Cultural Retinue. E.g. Cultural Pikes + Defense.)

 

[Palbulchul]

1. If I didn't clarify yet, (it is indeed not so clear from the reader's point of view.) at the top of the OP I said my culture was from Bavaria, so that makes my culture German.
2. I picked Bavaria specifically because of the Knights - then I learned how terrible they are, only to learn later again that they aren't that bad. (LOL)
3. Till now, I just waged war with levies rather exclusively, and to win most of the time that meant I had to amass huge numerical superiority. I didn't bother checking retinue tab until very recently (by that I mean yesterday.)
4. The Knight retinue comes with 100 LC/150 HC, so I probably won't get disorganized harass. (I sure hope not.)
5. Now that I have built up some economy, I am fully intent on increasing the size of my retinue.

Hence the retinue questions of late. Thanks for your analyses and insights.

 

[Andrew0Red]

(Whoops...)

Cutoff for Harass vs. Disorganised Harass is ≤40% with no or bad commander and ≤75% with 12+ commander. So as long as you lose more LC than HC or have a decent commander, you're fine.

As far as I can see, Knights get less attack and defense in Melee than 2 Defense Retinues (much less in case of defense), despite costing only slightly less. The prize for this price is the higher Skirmish and Pursuit. It's also a bit more compact, for those pesky low-support provinces.

Hmm, I'd say it depends on your enemies. If you plan on fighting enemies around your power and need every little bit of advantage you can, you probably have to go Defense Retinue. But if things are going well and you don't expect trouble, Knight Retinue is fairly powerfull and wins much faster.


Hmm, if one flank collapses (Without-Loss-Of-Generality the enemy centre), your centre no longer has any influence on the phase. Knight Retinue is usefull in both Skirmish and Melee, so is better able to support a flank than Defense Retinue. I still think Defense is more powerfull overall, though.

 

[Palbulchul]

(Whoops...)

Cutoff for Harass vs. Disorganised Harass is ≤40% with no or bad commander and ≤75% with 12+ commander. So as long as you lose more LC than HC or have a decent commander, you're fine.

As far as I can see, Knights get less attack and defense in Melee than 2 Defense Retinues (much less in case of defense), despite costing only slightly less. The prize for this price is the higher Skirmish and Pursuit. It's also a bit more compact, for those pesky low-support provinces.

Hmm, I'd say it depends on your enemies. If you plan on fighting enemies around your power and need every little bit of advantage you can, you probably have to go Defense Retinue. But if things are going well and you don't expect trouble, Knight Retinue is fairly powerfull and wins much faster.


Hmm, if one flank collapses (Without-Loss-Of-Generality the enemy centre), your centre no longer has any influence on the phase. Knight Retinue is usefull in both Skirmish and Melee, so is better able to support a flank than Defense Retinue. I still think Defense is more powerfull overall, though.

I've been looking around (and your say on LS) and perished the thought of using LS retinues for combat force. I learned that they are strictly for police work, not for war. That means I will probably stick with 2 flanks of pikemen, with one wing (but not center) filled with Knights. Thanks for your help. You've clarified a lot of rather foggy areas for me.

 

[Andrew0Red]

No problem - I quite like being the smart one for once.

As for LS, they are heavy on LI, and as you say, LI is not good for combat. Looking big, looting (for those who haven't gone soft yet ) and sieging (but NOT assault) are what they're good at. Which is often too little for their RetCap cost.

(Technically, LI is reasonably cost-efficient in assault, you just need 4x of them, which usually collides with supply limit. In combat, their raw stats are equally cost-efficient, but they lose out to the others, since everybody else gets tactics.)

 

[Palbulchul]

No problem - I quite like being the smart one for once.

As for LS, they are heavy on LI, and as you say, LI is not good for combat. Looking big, looting (for those who haven't gone soft yet ) and sieging (but NOT assault) are what they're good at. Which is often too little for their RetCap cost.

(Technically, LI is reasonably cost-efficient in assault, you just need 4x of them, which usually collides with supply limit. In combat, their raw stats are equally cost-efficient, but they lose out to the others, since everybody else gets tactics.)

Well - next step is... breeding my infantry commander, hopefully from Scotland. (And starting at 769 means finding that scottish commander becomes a major pain the @#$%...)

 

[Andrew0Red]

Most italian commanders are decent pikeleaders too. One of those may be easier to find.

BTW, it's probably too late, but if your personal german levy is a signifincant portion of your army, you may want to not get any archers from your castles, and maybe not HI either. Thay way, you'll get the most mileage out of your LC and HC.

 

[Palbulchul]

Most italian commanders are decent pikeleaders too. One of those may be easier to find.

BTW, it's probably too late, but if your personal german levy is a signifincant portion of your army, you may want to not get any archers from your castles, and maybe not HI either. Thay way, you'll get the most mileage out of your LC and HC.

Yep. It is too late. Which is why I turned to retinues.