Combat Question: What the Hell Happened!?

[Tan_Binrui]

I'm playing a game as Castille in 1066. I took some time gathering power, but now I'm in a war with the Emir of Toledo. My army and his are evenly matched, but his are led by men who have 13-16 Military Scores, while mine is led by El Cid (24-26), who happens to have both Unmovable and Defender (something like a combined 100% bonus to Defense). After a bit of a fight, some flanks crumble, and it's me versus three flanks, whom I outnumber about 2000 to 1800. Then, all of a sudden, in TWO DAYS I lose 1500 MEN, my morale plummets (it was originally higher than all of theirs), and I'm routed, taking heavy losses and forced to look at the mercenary menu.

So, if someone could help me out... WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED!?

 

[Lamahorse]

Romney lost the election. Christians hell bent on destroying Islam have had their morale shattered.

 

[Xeorm]

Note that if a flank can flank another flank, it gets a fairly sizable bonus to damage, and I don't believe takes any damage until targeted. Notice too during battles that there's 2 stages, skirmish and melee. Skirmish is where they waste a lot of time, then melee to actually finish a battle. I've found it can look kinda even while they faff about, then melee stage kicks in and suddenly everyone's dead.

 

[N Katsyev]

That's weird, I do know that flanking matters much more now, maybe El Cid was having an off day and choose the absolute worst tactic against the tactics decided upon by his enemies?

 

[hannibal_barca]

You have that big defense bonus, did you initiate the attack or defending?

 

[Xeorm]

Defense applies to the defense of each troop, doesn't matter who started the fight, aside from any terrain effects.

If you can, also tell what the troop makeup is. Numbers to pay attention to: heavy infantry, pikemen, and heavy cavalry, (and to a lesser extent, archers and light cavalry). Horse archers too, but I highly doubt you're facing off against them in Iberia. Light infantry especially is rather useless, and archers are only good in skirmish phase, which tends not to matter because of the high defense of all unit types.

 

[Tan_Binrui]

I understand the large bonus from a flank of a flank, but neither of the flanks ended up outnumbering me, the furthest was only a few hundred against my 2000.

I was in the Melee stage when I wasn't taking many losses. I was actually hoping El Cid would carry the day, because he had been flanked in melee for a few days before the crash happened.

Troop composition was in my favor. I had prioritized buildings that gave me Light Cavalry, Heavy Infantry and Archers. The Emir of Toledo still had, mostly, the basic buildings while I had, in all of my direct holdings, level 2-3 military buildings.

Everything was working as expected, with a few swings of unpredictability (My large neighboring flank was taking more morale damage than physical damage... must have had a Craven leader), but then a 2-3 day crash of losing everything when there were no real changes in the battle.

One thing to note, El Cid holds the center of my Army, but this was a collection of armies from Aragon, Navarra and Leon. The picture showing on my commander portrait was of the Mayor of Burgos (not El Cid). Does that mean anything, or does it just take the highest ranking guy and show him while still making calculations for your actual leader?

 

[riknap]

there's always the chance that your marshal in the centre "drew" a weak/generic combat tactic, while the three generals of the emirate happened to pick the best combat tactics.

also, given our latest post, it's possible that the one actually commanding the centre of your army during the battle itself was NOT your commander, but that of your ally's centre commander. It seems like command is a first come first serve basis for some reason, though if they arrived simultaneously ...

 

[victorero]

I think he took over for your El Cid and thats why it all went to hell. Have to always check right before battles when you have merged armies

 

[Xeorm]

From my experience, it always shows the person who's leading said flank. Sadly, I've noted that allied armies have their own leaders, and the highest ranked leader wins out and does the leading of the flank. Because they're allied, you can't change this ahead of time, either.

I mainly noticed this when I invited Aragon over once, just for a couple more troops, and he would always lead one flank, even though he was a whopping 0 martial. Very frustrating.

 

[Tan_Binrui]

I'll have to run through it again (I ragequit without saving because I didn't want that to have happened without understanding it). This time I'll slam the whole army into one center flank since the other kingdoms will have their own armies in the battle.

Thanks for the help, everyone, definitely feeling better about jumping back into this one.

 

[grumphie]

i had the same happen too once. massive battle between emperor and revolters, BAM! revolters suddenly get 1500 losses at one flank and it gets crushed.

 

[The_Blind_One]

Getting flanked is the worst thing that can happen to you in combat.

The enemy usualy DOUBLES his morale damage to your troops and gets a significant bonus in killing them as well. So even if you had a strong defender, if he gets flanked, it's bye bye... Losing one flank will usualy result in losing the other one, leaving you with your strongest leader who will get flanked from both sides! You can guess it...you're dead.

But the same thing goes for the AI.

 

[grumphie]

Getting flanked is the worst thing that can happen to you in combat.

The enemy usualy DOUBLES his morale damage to your troops and gets a significant bonus in killing them as well. So even if you had a strong defender, if he gets flanked, it's bye bye... Losing one flank will usualy result in losing the other one, leaving you with your strongest leader who will get flanked from both sides! You can guess it...you're dead.

But the same thing goes for the AI.

no, thats not the point. the point is fighting normally, losing say 30 men a day, and then seuddenly ahve 1-3 days lose over a thousand men a day and have your morale obliterated.

 

[DJIM]

I've actually had this bug a few days ago when i reinforced an army in a battle and suddenly my army stopped making any damage and i was losing thousands at a time so it is possible for this to happen - obviously a bug. This was the only time i did not feel any regret in ragequitting.

 

[FabiusBile]

Something similar has happened to me as well, but I guess the cause was a bit different. I was trying to suppress some of my Vassals (The Bloke in Uppland was particularly crafty at fabricating claims. He indeed managed to asseble 6 holdings before I had to step in) and I attacked his 3500 Stack with a raised levy (~7500). I did not watch the battle of course because I assumed I was going to win anyway, but in the end I lost close to 5k men and lost the battle. Turns out his "3500" were actully Cav retinues that managed to pick the right combat tactic (all leaders were over 25 martial skill). Normally the number of troops is a quite good estimate of how you'll do in a battle but that of course ceases to be the case when you're facing mono unit retinues. Despite cultural buildings most stacks are nearly identical in troop composition anway, which is a bit a shame .

 

[Yxklyx]

This might be related but there's a reported bug (or two) regarding some Muslim troops that are getting 100% bonus instead of a 10% bonus (fixed in today's patch). Perhaps these super troops caused all those losses?

 

[Malibu Stacey]

This might be related but there's a reported bug (or two) regarding some Muslim troops that are getting 100% bonus instead of a 10% bonus (fixed in today's patch). Perhaps these super troops caused all those losses?

Those were related to the Scottish Schiltron Buildings and the Altaic/Persian Riding Grounds. In 1066 Iberia he'd be facing West African forces so it's very unlikely to be those bugs.