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Lt. General
Jan 20, 2003
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Well, that's consistent at least. If the base percentage before modification using gdeff is about 80 % (it was 79.4 % in my last estimate) then we'd expect gdeff = 20 to be the cutoff point, and it appears to be here.

Still don't have a clue why some damage gets through once we hit what ought to be 100 % coverage.
 

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Lt. General
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Values starting to look consistent

Working backwards from your data to estimate probabilities.

Mikel, you had 0.159 per hit in your last trials, I was using 0.171, let's split the difference and use 0.165. Also, I've increased the damage in each case by 0.5 because HOI rounds up those two-digit displays.

The 30/30 unit first:

0 gdeff / 90.5 => 57.6 hits, if base = 77.5 then P(hit) * (1-0.775) * 300 = 57.6, P(hit) = 0.853

7 gdeff / 92.5 => 45.5 hits, if base = 77.5 then P(hit) * (1-0.845) * 300 = 45.5, P(hit) = 0.978

14 gdeff / 96.5 => 21.2 hits, if base = 77.5 then P(hit) * (1-0.915) *300 = 21.2, P(hit) = 0.831

16 gdeff / 97.5 => 15.2 hits, if base = 77.5 then P(hit) * (1-0.935) * 300 = 15.2, P(hit) = 0.779

18 gdeff / 98.5 => 9.1 hits, if base = 77.5 then P(hit) * (1-0.955) * 300 = 9.1, P(hit) = 0.674

If you plug in base = 80, the values for P(hit) climb to as high as 1.5. If you plug in base = 75, the values for P(hit) fall to 0.429. I chose base = 77.5 % and as you can see they cluster quite well. Here the average for P(hit) is 0.823 and is reasonably consistent. You can also eyeball the damage values for 60/60 and 90/90 and see that they're more or less 2x and 3x greater, as they should be.

From Mikel's earlier trial we had P(hit) = 0.867 and base = 0.760. While there is a lot here that baffles me, we certainly seem to be closing in on correct values of P(hit) and base gdeff.
 

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Considering another possibility

What is the real damage distribution? Can we get closer to a final answer here? In particular, can we eliminate the possibility that some hits cause zero damage, or prove that the actual distribution is totally even?

I got this from Mikel's first set of trials:

0.075 10 times
0.150 16 times
0.225 24 times

Mikel more recently got:

0.075 8 times
0.150 8 times
0.225 4 times

And we had three cases of mysterious "breakthrough" hits even when gdeff should have been => 100 %:

0.075 2 times
0.150 1 time

Making a total of:

0.075 20 times
0.150 25 times
0.225 28 times

Let me go out on an intuitive limb here and estimate that the real distribution is perfectly even, each of the three outcomes being equally likely. It's converging that way, anyway, so we'll soon know for sure.

Now what happens if the distribution also actually includes a zero damage outcome? Is that even possible now?

So far we've been led to believe that P(hit) = 0.845 and base gdeff = 0.767. Can we eliminate the possibility that the values are different because there is a zero damage outcome 25 % of the time?

Figuring out a possible new base gdeff is relatively easy. Right now we have it stopping 0.767 hits and letting through 0.233. But if 1 hit in 4 does no damage then in addition to the 0.233 hits that we observe getting through there would have to be 0.233/3 = 0.078 more that get through but leave no damage. That makes base gdeff = 0.689.

However, there's also the problem that this would lower the expected size of the hit to (0.075 + 0.150 + 0.225) / 4 = 0.1125. What does that imply about P(hit) and base gdeff?

In our calculations from the first round of Mikel's tests we counted 50 visible hits in 240 trials. To this we must add 16.7 invisible ones that did zero damage, for a hit probability after base gdeff of 27.8 %. When we had SA = 2 we had 11.025 damage, which we inferred meant 64.5 hits in 60 trials, but now if in fact some hits do no damage, we would have to think there were 11.025 / 0.1125 = 98 hits in 60 trials with 120 shots fired.

Subtract 60 shots against gdeff with 16.7 hits and you're left with 81.3 hits in the other 60 trials. Too many! The equation doesn't work.

It seems unlikely, therefore, that there are any hits that do zero damage. But we really need to be sure.

Going back to your 30/30 data, Mikel, and trying one more time to use gdeff = 0.667 (close to 0.689), I get:

P(hit) = 0.844 for gdeff = 0.667
P(hit) = 0.845 for gdeff = 0.737
P(hit) = 0.532 for gdeff = 0.807
P(hit) = 0.428 for gdeff = 0.827
P(hit) = 0.290 for gdeff = 0.847

There's just no good support here . . . the numbers get worse and worse as we go up. So I think we can put aside the idea that there might be zero damage results, and work with an equal distribution of:

0.075
0.150
0.225
 

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Now we can recompute all results to date using expected damage of 0.150 to see what that gives us.

From Mikel's first series of tests:

11.025 / 0.150 = 73.5 hits

We subtract 12.5 hits out of 60 shots that we expect to occur firing on the single point of GD and we are left with 61 hits in 60 shots that were fired where there was no GD . . . essentially P(hit) is 101.7 %.

From Mikel's more recent series of tests:

P(hit) = 0.938 for gdeff = 0.775
P(hit) = 1.075 for gdeff = 0.845
P(hit) = 0.914 for gdeff = 0.915
P(hit) = 0.857 for gdeff = 0.935
P(hit) = 0.741 for gdeff = 0.955

So now let's add up all these results and see what they average out to . . . 0.924.

So IF the distribution is even, then P(hit) has to be about 0.924.
 

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(Update: 8/1/03) HOI Combat Calculater

Its late and I'm tired but I wanted to post a reply here before I went to bed.

I think I have a decently accurate Combat Calculator. The combat formula used is listed in the included readme file. I am curious to see what you guys think of it -- accuracy etc... This is the first relase as a Win32 program.

Thanks,
Grendel
 

FrEDa

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Originally posted by Math Guy
Now we can recompute all results to date using expected damage of 0.150 to see what that gives us.

From Mikel's first series of tests:

11.025 / 0.150 = 73.5 hits

We subtract 12.5 hits out of 60 shots that we expect to occur firing on the single point of GD and we are left with 61 hits in 60 shots that were fired where there was no GD . . . essentially P(hit) is 101.7 %.

From Mikel's more recent series of tests:

P(hit) = 0.938 for gdeff = 0.775
P(hit) = 1.075 for gdeff = 0.845
P(hit) = 0.914 for gdeff = 0.915
P(hit) = 0.857 for gdeff = 0.935
P(hit) = 0.741 for gdeff = 0.955

So now let's add up all these results and see what they average out to . . . 0.924.

So IF the distribution is even, then P(hit) has to be about 0.924.

I'm all lost in the numbers right now, but I hope your calculations are up-to-date (with the round 0 issue etc).

Hmm, this is interesting. Remember that the mouse_over help says that each GD has 10% chance of stopping a hit. Since we get, with an equal damage distribution of {0,1,2,3} that P(hit) is around 0.924 (close to 0.90 i.e. 10% block) I say we might be on to something here.

So, we have two scenarios (correct me if these numbers are incorrect) :

1. P(hit) = 90% (0 damage possible for hit).

2. P(hit) = 76% (no 0 damage).

These values however incorporate the did-we-hit probability do they not? Or don't they? Or wait, we found that even though we had units with 0 GD we still didn't get 100% hits right? We then concluded there are 3 possible reasons for this :

1. It possible to do 0 damage.
2. did-we-hit could be responsible.
3. both 1. and 2.

It's very likely the P(hit) values we have seen/calculated with 0 GD units include this did-we-hit. But instead of signaling the block % they should be the value of the did-we-hit. Or is my thinking wrong here?

MathGuy, the values u used here, are they for 0 GD units? If so it's still possible they repressent the did-we-hit variable and not the P(block).

P(hit) = P(did-we-hit) * P(not blocked)

so if P(not blocked) = 100% (GD = 0) then P(hit) = P(did-we-hit).

If so, we can then use that value to calculate P(not blocked) and get the block %. Or have you done this? I'm kinda lost to what we have right now.. too many posts and tests :)

/F
 

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Lt. General
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First, welcome to Grendel2

Great stuff Grendel2!

Sorry I didn't see your thread on your combat calculator when you first posted it. Sometimes it's a struggle just to keep up with the implications of THIS thread, much less all the others.

I did cringe a bit when you said (over in your other thread) that you had read all 400+ of my posts. I have been reminded once again by the challenges on this thread that guessing is a poor way to do analysis. Some of the information in earlier posts of mine is so completely wrong, it's embarrassing.

However, it's always great to have more folks on board helping. I've downloaded your calculator and I'll try to give you some feedback on it when I get a minute. Thanks for sharing with us.
 

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Reviewing my latest model

Hi FrEDa,

I hope my calculations are up-to-date too, but right now I wouldn't bet any money on it. :)

I went back and checked my latest model against as much data as possible. These numbers ought to work for all kinds of units and situations, not just GD = 0 or any other special case.

To clarify, because I think I'm working from different assumptions than you are:

P(hit) = 0.924
GD base = 0.767

I assume the same two-stage process as in AA fire, with one change, that a maximum of ONE point of GD can be used against each successful hit. So the process goes:

(a) At random, pick one unit from one side and allow it to fire on one unit from the other side.

(b) Compute firing unit's current SA allowing for strength and effectivity. Compute target unit's current GD rating allowing for same.

(c) For each full point of SA in the firing unit make one "did we hit?" check with 92.4 % probability of hitting.

(d) For each hit on the target unit, if there are still GD points unused, make one "was the hit nullified?" check with 76.7 % probability of nullifying the hit.

(e) For each hit not nullified, apply damage according to this distribution:

0.075 -- 33.3 % chance
0.150 -- 33.3 % chance
0.225 -- 33.3 % chance


Confirming the model against Mikel's observations

Mikel provided us with four different sets of test data. In one set of tests he got the GDeff value up high enough to completely stop all hits, but the results were perverse because they benefited the wrong side. In another set, he tested with smaller bonuses to GD base. I used that set of data to derive the values in this model. Finally, he also tested with day-long fights between units with high ratings, and 10-hour fights for units with low ratings. Let's look at those and see how my model fits.

If you have two 30/30 units fighting, in each hour you should get:

30 x 0.924 = 27.72 hits

27.72 x 0.767 = 21.26 of those hits nullified, leaving 6.46 that get through

For each of 6.46 hits, average of 0.150 % damage to target, total 0.97 % per hour.

If you look back to page 1 of this thread, you'll see that Mikel did a series of 30/30 trials and got losses of 16 to 22 % per day, average 19 %. If you allow for the fact that unit strengths would decline as damage accumulated, my model says 0.85 x 0.97 x 24 = 19.8 % per day.

For the trials that Mikel did with 30/60 or 30/120, we would expect the damage to be almost the same. The only case where the points above 30 would matter would be if one unit fought two, so that the extra GD points could be used against a second enemy. Mikel didn't do any tests of this kind.

Meanwhile if you look at Mikel's 1/1 trials, we would expect the one SA to hit 9.32 times in 10 hours, and then to be nullified 7.15 times, leaving 2.17 hits per 10 hours. Actual hits in 10 hours: 2.08. And in Mikel's 2/1 trials, we would expect 2.17 hits per 10 hours from the first SA point plus 9.32 from the second, total 11.49, and again this agrees with Mikel's observations.

So this model fits, within the limits of random error, with everything Mikel has given us. We still can't explain (a) how the wrong side gets the benefit of ground_def_eff bonuses, or (b) why sometimes hits get through what should be a 100 % shield. But otherwise the model is consistent.

Side comment

Now to be clear, this model as it stands at the present moment doesn't agree in any coherent way with the 10 % rollover text you see in the actual game, or the 66.7 % mentioned in the manual, and it doesn't agree especially well with Mikel's early 1/3rd rule either, although it does agree that there will be a minimum amount of damage suffered at all times.

However, I think we just have to set that aside. Not agreeing with the manual or with rollover text really doesn't prove anything. I've been tempted to look for some hidden agreement a number of times and it has never worked out.
 

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Complex battle versus model

I decided to test my model against a fairly complex combat situation.

EDIT: I figured out that I had made an error transcribing the results. There was an hour of data entirely missing, and another that I had collected but skipped in typing this up. I also ran the entire test again, same conditions, to see how different it would be the second time, and I figured out that I had gotten the GD bonus backwards. Sigh. So then I rewrote my whole analysis to be simpler.

Germans (attacking):
1 inf division, 14 SA, 20 GD, 100% strength, 65 eff
5 inf divisions, 42 SA, 179 GD, 100 % strength, 65 eff
2 inf divisions, 46 SA, 179 GD, 100 % strength, 65 eff
1 inf division, 42 SA, 183 GD, 100 % strength, 65 eff
3 inf divisions, 42 SA, 179 GD, 100% strength, 1 eff

Soviets (defending): 3 inf divisions, 35 SA, 137 GD, 100 % strength, 140 eff

The weather was frozen, and the Germans had an experimental unit meant to represent a battalion (14/20 instead of 42/179) and were handicapped because they had a general with a command limit of 9, so three divisions were functioning at 1 %. They were led by Hoth, a Panzer Leader, while Vatutin on the Soviet side had no special traits. Finally, the Germans had a 10 % "bonus" to ground_def_eff and the Soviets had a 5 % "bonus" to same, so we have to adjust by adding these values to the GD bases of the opposite sides.

There were 10 hours of day combat followed by 7 hours of night combat. During the night the German eff fell from 65 % to 15 % and the Soviet fell from 140 % to 125 %.

What I most wanted to know was whether the extra GD points on the Soviet side would get used. They're outnumbered by about 3 to 1, not counting the German units that are at 1 %, but they have enough GD to deal with all the German firepower, IF they're allowed to. I conclude that extra GD points DO get used, as the alternative is somewhere between very unlikely, and impossible.

German hit estimate
The Germans should have inflicted about this many hits per hour:

(6 x 42 + 14 + 2 x 46) x 0.65 x 0.924 = 215.0 hits/hour

The Soviets should then have stopped about this many:

215.0 x 0.867 = 186.4 hits nullified/hour

Leaving 28.6 hits that got through per hour, or 4.3 % damage to the Soviets

During night combat, the Germans should have scored approximately:

(6 x 42 + 14 + 2 x 46) x 0.15 x 0.924 = 49.6 hits/hour

The Soviets should then have stopped about this many:

49.6 x 0.867 = 43.0 hits nullified/hour

Which leaves 6.6 hits x 0.15 = 1.0 % per hour damage to the Soviets.

10 hours day fighting x 4.3 % + 7 hours night fighting x 1.0 % = 50.0 %



Soviet hit estimate.
Meanwhile the Soviets should have inflicted about this many hits per hour:

3 x 35 x 1.4 x 0.924 = 135.8 hits/hour

For the 8 units that were very high in GD and not at 1 %, the Germans should then have stopped about this many (the 3 units at 1 % wouldn't have stopped any significant number, as their GD would be rounded down to 1):

(8/12) x 135.8 x 0.817 = 74.0 hits nullified/hour

The weak unit would have had 0.65 x 20 = 13 GD, so depending on how many hits it took per hour it might have been swamped or might not. The 1 % eff units would all have taken numerous hits without significant GD protection. This leaves probably 60 hits/hour, or 9 % damage to the Germans each hour.

At night, the Soviets should have scored:

3 x 35 x 1.25 x 0.924 = 121.3 hits/hour

The Germans still had enough GD in their larger units not at 1 % eff to stop these hits (179 x 0.15 = 26.9). So they should then have nullified:

(8/12) x 121.3 x 0.817 = 66.1 hits nullified/hour

Which leaves 55.2 hits x 0.15 = 8.3 % per hour damage to the Germans.

For 10 hours of day fighting and 7 hours of night, we get 10 x 9 + 7 x 8.3 = 148.1 % damage.

We also have to correct for the fact that fighting values change during an engagement. I won't reproduce the exact calculation, but we would expect the Soviets to inflict a net of 76 % damage on the Germans in 10 hours (instead of 90 %) and the Germans to inflict a net of 41 % damage on the Soviets (instead of 43 %).

What actually happened
But in fact, here are the total scores on each side:

Day fighting portion

Hour ---- German(1) ---- Soviet(1) ---- German(2) ---- Soviet(2)

0 ------- 1200 -------- 300 ---------- 1200 -------- 300
1 ------- data missing --------------- 1184 -------- 296
2 ------- 1172 -------- 293 ---------- 1176 -------- 293
3 ------- 1151 -------- 291 ---------- 1167 -------- 290
4 ------- 1135 -------- 286 ---------- 1158 -------- 286
5 ------- 1120 -------- 283 ---------- 1142 -------- 282
6 ------- 1111 -------- 280 ---------- 1134 -------- 278
7 ------- 1091 -------- 276 ---------- 1126 -------- 274
8 ------- 1084 -------- 273 ---------- 1121 -------- 271
9 ------- 1081 -------- 271 ---------- 1107 -------- 267
10 ------1072 -------- 268 ---------- 1103 -------- 263


Night fighting portion

Hour ---- German(1) ---- Soviet(1) ---- German(2) ---- Soviet(2)

11 ------- 1058 -------- 268 -------- 1087 -------- 261
12 ------- 1044 -------- 268 -------- 1075 -------- 260
13 ------- 1032 -------- 267 -------- 1055 -------- 260
14 ------- 1019 -------- 265 -------- 1046 -------- 260
15 ------- 1007 -------- 263 -------- 1032 -------- 259
16 ------- 0995 -------- 263 -------- 1020 -------- 259
17 ------- 0985 -------- 263 -------- 1006 -------- 258


In 10 hours of day fighting the Germans should have lost up to 90 % but lost an average of 116.5. The Soviets should have lost up to 43 % but lost an average of 34.5 %. After 7 hours of night fighting the Germans should have lost as much as 71 % damage but lost 81 - 87 %. The Soviets should have lost up to 7 % but lost just 3 - 5 %.
 
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Originally posted by FrEDa
Hmm, this is interesting. Remember that the mouse_over help says that each GD has 10% chance of stopping a hit. Since we get, with an equal damage distribution of {0,1,2,3} that P(hit) is around 0.924 (close to 0.90 i.e. 10% block) I say we might be on to something here.

So, we have two scenarios (correct me if these numbers are incorrect) :

1. P(hit) = 90% (0 damage possible for hit).

2. P(hit) = 76% (no 0 damage).

These values however incorporate the did-we-hit probability do they not? Or don't they? Or wait, we found that even though we had units with 0 GD we still didn't get 100% hits right? We then concluded there are 3 possible reasons for this :

1. It possible to do 0 damage.
2. did-we-hit could be responsible.
3. both 1. and 2.../F

I'm in the middle of doing an extensive number of tests with SA = 1 GD = 0 with hourly observations. My objective is to determine the distribution of damage per hour (is .075, .150, .225 really 1/3,1/3,1/3?).

Preliminary results show a slight bias to the higher values but I need more tests before I can say anything within reasonable confidence limits.

So far (over 200 observations) every hour has had either .075, .150 or .225 strength damage. There have been no zero damage hours or any with "critical hit" large values.

I hope to be finshed by Monday.
 

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Maybe P(hit) = 100 %

We can do a little check on the real GD base and the real P(hit) using the figures from my last test. At the end of the second battle, the 8 full-size German divisions that started with 65 % eff had lost an average of 10 % each. The three divisions that were at 1 % eff, which had little or no protection from GD, had lost an average of 29.7 % each.

Consider how many hits that 29.7 % damage represents, about 198 in 17 hours of combat or 11.65 per hour. Each of the three 1 % eff divisions took 11.65 hits per hour -- that's 35 hits per hour for them collectively.

Now we know the Soviet divisions started at 35 SA x 1.4 and ended the day at about 31 SA x 1.4, then ran for 7 night hours at 31 SA x 1.25, ending at 30 SA x 1.25. That's 462 day shots and 266 night shots per division, total 2,286 shots for all three. Take 1/4th of that total, 571.5 potential shots at the 1 % eff divisions. Divide by 3 to get the shots per division . . .190.5 per division.

The discrepancy isn't very large (we need 198 and only have 190.5), but it implies that virtually EVERY shot fired at the 1 % eff divisions was a hit. So P(hit) may not be 0.924, but a higher number, even 100 %. Can't prove it yet, but Mikel's data (200 rounds and not even one miss) is pretty compelling.

Meanwhile we can examine the eight divisions that had full GD in place, to estimate GD base in this case. They also would have taken 190.5 attempted shots per division, but they wound up with 10 % damage each, implying 66.7 shots actually hit. That means 65 % were stopped and 35 % got through.

This doesn't make a lot of sense. My last estimate of GD base (with no modifiers) was 0.767. The Germans should have gotten another +5 % from the Soviets due to the bug, making it 0.817. The Soviets clearly had a very high GD base, around 0.867, because so few German shots hit. So why did the Germans have such poor shot-stopping?

Here's what I think. During the day fighting, the Germans had enough protection (65 % x 179 GD = 116 GD) that even if TWO Soviet divisions hit the same division (2 x 140 % x 35 = 98 SA), they wouldn't have used up all the GD. But during the night fighting, the Germans would have had very little protection (15 % x 179 GD, minus losses = 26 GD or less) and a single Soviet division attacking would have been guaranteed to use up all the GD. This would have produced significant surplus losses.
 

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LOVE that minus sign!

Okay, so here's an easy post to understand, as opposed to the brain-busting kind I've been doing.

Go into the infantry technology file, and wherever it says "ground_def_eff = 5" make it "ground_def_eff = -5". The perverse effect will be reversed -- now you will be making your enemies weaker rather than stronger.

I ran the same complex battle as before, with the techs all reversed, so that the Soviets gave the Germans a -5 penalty and the Germans gave the Soviets a -10 penalty.

Day fighting portion

Hour ---- German(1) ---- Soviet(1)

0 ------- 1200 -------- 300
1 ------- 1195 -------- 285
2 ------- 1178 -------- 273
3 ------- 1168 -------- 263
4 ------- 1159 -------- 252
5 ------- 1152 -------- 240
6 ------- 1147 -------- 229
7 ------- 1127 -------- 216
8 ------- 1120 -------- 205
9 ------- 1108 -------- 193
10 ------1103 -------- 180


Night fighting portion

Hour ---- German(1) ---- Soviet(1) ---- German(2) ---- Soviet(2)

11 ------- 1094 -------- 171
12 ------- 1075 -------- 167


. . . and then the Soviets ran for it, as sensible soldiers do when they're getting massacred.

Notice that the German losses are actually slightly lower than before, going from around 0.817 to 0.717 in GD protection, but also facing a quickly crumbling enemy. Meanwhile the Soviet losses are huge, going from roughly 0.867 to 0.667 in GD protection has taken them from 36 % in damage to 133 %.

Couldn't get much clearer than this. I'm off to post a bug report (giving primary credit to Mikel, who was actually the first person to notice this). But my recommendation will be: don't change the game mechanic, just put a minus sign on the techs! We already have one way of boosting ground defense on our side -- add more GD points. But we didn't have a way to wreck the GD of our enemies, and now we do.
 

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Re: Reviewing my latest model

Originally posted by Math Guy
Hi FrEDa,

I hope my calculations are up-to-date too, but right now I wouldn't bet any money on it. :)

I went back and checked my latest model against as much data as possible. These numbers ought to work for all kinds of units and situations, not just GD = 0 or any other special case.

To clarify, because I think I'm working from different assumptions than you are:

P(hit) = 0.924
GD base = 0.767

I assume the same two-stage process as in AA fire, with one change, that a maximum of ONE point of GD can be used against each successful hit. So the process goes:

(a) At random, pick one unit from one side and allow it to fire on one unit from the other side.

(b) Compute firing unit's current SA allowing for strength and effectivity. Compute target unit's current GD rating allowing for same.

(c) For each full point of SA in the firing unit make one "did we hit?" check with 92.4 % probability of hitting.

(d) For each hit on the target unit, if there are still GD points unused, make one "was the hit nullified?" check with 76.7 % probability of nullifying the hit.

(e) For each hit not nullified, apply damage according to this distribution:

0.075 -- 33.3 % chance
0.150 -- 33.3 % chance
0.225 -- 33.3 % chance


Good, that was what I wanted to know. If you still used the 2-step combat method. Since you do I'm back on track again.

Ok, we then assume there is no 0-damage for a good hit, which would be pretty strange in the first place.

Mikhel said he's been doing alot of 1/0 fight tests, so we should be able to get P(hit) from that. But, as you also mentioned, he didn't see any 0 damage rounds so it might well be that P(hit) = 100%.. and it is changes in efficiency that has skewed this value for us in the past..

/F
 

FrEDa

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Re: LOVE that minus sign!

Originally posted by Math Guy
Okay, so here's an easy post to understand, as opposed to the brain-busting kind I've been doing.

Go into the infantry technology file, and wherever it says "ground_def_eff = 5" make it "ground_def_eff = -5". The perverse effect will be reversed -- now you will be making your enemies weaker rather than stronger.

I ran the same complex battle as before, with the techs all reversed, so that the Soviets gave the Germans a -5 penalty and the Germans gave the Soviets a -10 penalty.

Day fighting portion

Hour ---- German(1) ---- Soviet(1)

0 ------- 1200 -------- 300
1 ------- 1195 -------- 285
2 ------- 1178 -------- 273
3 ------- 1168 -------- 263
4 ------- 1159 -------- 252
5 ------- 1152 -------- 240
6 ------- 1147 -------- 229
7 ------- 1127 -------- 216
8 ------- 1120 -------- 205
9 ------- 1108 -------- 193
10 ------1103 -------- 180


Night fighting portion

Hour ---- German(1) ---- Soviet(1) ---- German(2) ---- Soviet(2)

11 ------- 1094 -------- 171
12 ------- 1075 -------- 167


. . . and then the Soviets ran for it, as sensible soldiers do when they're getting massacred.

Notice that the German losses are actually slightly lower than before, going from around 0.817 to 0.717 in GD protection, but also facing a quickly crumbling enemy. Meanwhile the Soviet losses are huge, going from roughly 0.867 to 0.667 in GD protection has taken them from 36 % in damage to 133 %.

Couldn't get much clearer than this. I'm off to post a bug report (giving primary credit to Mikel, who was actually the first person to notice this). But my recommendation will be: don't change the game mechanic, just put a minus sign on the techs! We already have one way of boosting ground defense on our side -- add more GD points. But we didn't have a way to wreck the GD of our enemies, and now we do.

Cool. I asked Johan about the ground_def_eff some days ago but haven't got an answer from him. Submitting a full Bug report is a good idea..
 

unmerged(14603)

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Re: LOVE that minus sign!

Originally posted by Math Guy
But my recommendation will be: don't change the game mechanic, just put a minus sign on the techs! We already have one way of boosting ground defense on our side -- add more GD points. But we didn't have a way to wreck the GD of our enemies, and now we do.

I came to the same conclusion after running a few tests with minus signs. It may not be WAD but it gives us another tool. However Paradox does need to fix the 3 techs I previously mentioned:

Tech 1205 Basic Div Sig Command System +5
Tech 1501 Improved Div Sig Command System +5
Tech 1802 Advanced Div Sig Command System +5

The signs need to be changed to negative.

I'm close to completing my tests. Will post as soon as they are done.
 

unmerged(14603)

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I finally finished the tests. I sure hope the tedium will be worth it!

My first objective was to determine the damage distribution done by 1 successful attack point.

So I ran 25 tests Inf SA = 1 GD = 0 vs an identical unit. Effectivity was 100% and ground_def_eff was 0.000 for both sides. I recorded hourly data. This gave me 25 * 10 * 2 = 500 observations. The results were:

.000 = 0
.075 = 159 = 31.8%
.150 = 177 = 35.4%
.225 = 164 = 32.8%

Total = 500 Mean = .15075

It appears we can say with a great deal of confidence that there are no 0 damage hits and that the distribution for land assault combat Inf vs Inf is 1/3 = .075, 1/3 = .150, 1/3 = .225.

I then ran 10 tests Arm HA = 1 GD = 0 versus an identical unit under the same conditions. The results were:

.000 = 0
.075 = 63 = 31.5%
.150 = 70 = 35.0%
.225 = 67 = 33.5%

Total = 200 Mean .1515

Although the number of observations was less IMO we can say with some confidence that the distribution was the same as for Inf vs Inf above.

I then ran 10 tests Arm SA = 1 GD = 0 versus Inf HA = 1 GD = 0 under the same conditions. The results were:

Damage done to Arm
.000 = 0
.075 = 34 = 34%
.150 = 33 = 33%
.225 = 33 = 33%

Total = 100 Mean .14925

Although the number of observations was less IMO we can again say with some confidence that the distribution was the same as for Inf vs Inf above.

Damage done to Inf
.000 = 0
.075 = 52 = 52%
.150 = 48 = 48%
.225 = 0

Total = 100 Mean .111

Although the number of observations was not large IMO we can say with some confidence that the distribution is .075 = 50% and .150 = 50%. This would make expected mean damage = .1125 versus other combats = .150. Damage done to a soft by a hard opponent would be .1125/.150 = 3/4 of that done by a soft opponent. This is somewhat consistent with the manual which gives the range as 1-2% (1.5%) for damage done to a soft unit by a hard opponent and 1-3% (2.0%) for the others.

In summary the above tests allow us to say with some confidence that land assault damage per hour done per successful attack point =:

To Hard by Soft = .150 (1/3=.075, 1/3=.150, 1/3= .225)
To Hard by Hard = .150 (1/3=.075, 1/3=.150, 1/3= .225)
To Soft by Soft = .150 (1/3=.075, 1/3=.150, 1/3= .225)
To Soft by Hard = .1125 (1/2=.075, 1/2=.150)
 

unmerged(14603)

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I started to look at the effect of blocking. I ran 20 tests of 10 hours each with Arm SA = 1 GD =1 versus Inf HA =1 GD =1. Effectivity = 100% and ground_def_eff = 0.000 for both sides.

Damage done to Arm
.000 = 163 = 81.5%
.075 = 11 = 5.5%
.150 = 12 = 6.0%
.225 = 14 = 7.0%

Total = 200 Mean damage/hour = 0.028875

If we assume a 1/3,1/3,1/3 distribution for damage then mean damage would have been = 0.02775/hour.

Damage done to Inf
.000 = 157 = 78.5%
.075 = 24 = 12.0%
.150 = 19 = 9.5%
.225 = 0

Total = 200 Mean damage/hour = 0.02325

If we assume a 1/2,1/2 distribution for damage then mean damage would have been = 0.02419/hour.

If we combine the 2 sets of data then 0 damage occurred in (163 + 157) / (200 +200) = 80.0% of the hours.

If combat is resolved on an hourly basis then 1 GD blocked 80% of the shots (not 67.7%).

My questions are:

Is combat resolved hourly or is a daily resolution "allocated" to each hour?

If combat is resolved hourly is it worth doing anymore tedious tests with Attack = 1 and GD = 1?
 

unmerged(13914)

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I think it's probably 80 %, not 66.67 %. All the evidence is pointing that way now. I was just going to run a test to see if I could get 100 % blocking for the Germans in a big battle, by setting the Soviets to +20 %. I'll report in a few minutes.