Combat Change - Tactical Withdrawals

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The Crawling Chaos932

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Space combat has huge implications, but lacks the tools needed in order to make it as fulfilling as it is critically important. Currently, one group of ships blobs against another group of ships until one player decides that he's had enough and tries to evacuate to another star-system, or one fleet gets completely destroyed. However, in the age of FTL drives, ships should be much capable than this. Ships are horribly unmaneuver at the strategic level. They get into combat and they either all run away as a group or get blown up. This really doesn't make any sense both as a game and realistically.

If all ships retreat, the victor should gain the appropriate amount of warscore for their "victory." Obviously not as much as destroying an actual fleet, but for damaging one (Which costs resources in the repair yard) and for winning an engagement. This will extend the length of wars, while encouraging them to be less costly and to invoke more interesting diplomacy.

Individual Ship FTL Withdrawal

Fleets are given retreat conditions as defined by players and modified by their admirals. Ships that fall below a certain hull integrity (75%, 50%, 25%) as set by the player would initiate their own FTL retreat jump and attempt to return to the nearest starbase. However, these ships would still be considered part of the fleet that they were in. When repairs are completed, the ships may be given an option by the players to attempt to return to their fleets using the safest known route. Otherwise, the ships would simply wait until their fleet returned to pick them up, or until they were given new orders. Ships which disengage from combat this way should be considered lost and not able to receive new orders until they return to the nearest starbase or rally point.

New Fleet Options with Individual FTL Withdrawal
Ship Withdraw Parameters
25%
50%
75%
Never

Ships return to fleet parameters
Repairs Complete
Repairs Complete and Safe passage
Never

Sublight Withdrawal
A player controlling only one star system has no ability retreat whatsoever. Simply put, fleets should be able to detach ships from combat and allow them to withdraw either automatically, or by the directive of the player. Ships that use this option would still be able to be engaged as long as the combat that they were originally engaged in was still ongoing.

Players should be able to select individual ships and order them to leave combat and return to a starbase. This will allow for harassment attacks against larger vessels, better fidelity during the early game (Where players often have only a few star systems to move between), and a better combat overall.

Inspirations and Evidence

CoH - "Retreat" Option
Company of Heroes A "Retreat" option which breaks squad suppression and allows a squad to return to base so that they can be reinforced and healed. Retreating allows a player to preserve force integrity at the cost of time and territory (which will be captured by the enemy) their remaining forces will also fight at a disadvantage. Fleeting units can also be pursued and engaged.

Watch from 1:27, displaying units retreat.


Modernized Freespace 2
All Freespace 2 factions show high FTL agility in their ship designs. While Stellaris ships are incapable of making trans-system tactical jumps, they can still rapidly leave a system using their drives. It makes no sense for a ship, full of highly trained officers and crew, to fight to the death when their destruction is imminent.

Watch from 8:35 to 9:17
The Corvette Juarez abandons combat at 4 percent hull integrity and limps out of the combat area. The Destroyer Meridian follows suit shortly after. Behavior like this would be expected in any modern space navy that wants to preserve itself.
 
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Amaroq81

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This echoes some things I've been thinking -- basically, once my ships are "in combat", they're just gung-ho committed to a single tactical objective: destroy the enemy. My only options are "Let them fight" or "Trigger Emergency FTL retreat".

I'd like more strategic control, with choices like:
- Engage (current)
- Advance on (Unit A) - Fires at targets of opportunity while moving to engage A. Prioritizes Unit A once in range.
- Protect (Unit P) - Interpose self between enemy and Unit P. Fire at targets of opportunity, prioritizing targets closest to bringing their own guns to bear vs P.
- Hold position with (Unit F) - Stay "under the guns" of (Unit F), e.g., a fortress, a station, or a slow-moving capital ship from a different fleet. Fires at targets of opportunity which come under the gun range of F.
- Move to position (X, Y) - Fire at targets of opportunity while prioritizing movement to X,Y. Useful for drawing the enemy towards a trap, for escaping/bypassing fixed/slow units, etc.
- Retreat beyond hyperlimit - Move to escape engagement first, then to get beyond hyperlimit; fire at targets of opportunity.
- FTL withdrawl - Units beyond hyperlimit use standard FTL to escape the engagement.
- Emergency FTL - Units beyond hyperlimit use standard FTL to escape the engagement. Units within hyperlimit take the 25% hit point risk.

That gives me a wide range of battles to fight: "The Enemy's Gate is Down" where I bullrush past fixed defenses to hit a specific target (hello, core AI); "Protect the homeworld" where my units stay under the guns of fixed defenses near my home station in a desperate defense; "Lure the enemy deeper into the gravity well", where a weaker fleet plays the wounded killdeer, luring the enemy units in before a second fleet arrives to close a pincer trap; "Orderly Retreat", where my faster fleet is able to disengage, retreat to the hyperlimit, and warp out.

Combine that with Individual Withdrawl options specifying two health points at which a unit will undertake "Retreat beyond hyperlimit; FTL withdrawl" and "Emergency FTL". Ethos might play into the limits you can set, with probably only (Fanatic Collectivist / Fanatic Spiritualist / Fanatic Militarist) willing to fight to the death, all other ethos *requiring* minimum retreat numbers -- at some point, the captains of a damaged ship venting atmosphere and losing combat effectiveness will make the decision to withdraw by any means possible.
 
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Zwollenaer

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Great post! You have some fantastic ideas that I totally support.

The no warscore for retreating enemies is one of my biggest annoyances with the game. You should at least get score for the ships you destroyed. And for the fact that the enemy is "giving ground" which can't be good for morale.
 
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The Crawling Chaos932

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I feel that adding just this would do a lot to make doomstacks less of the viable alternative. This way, ships could reliably engage targets in smaller groups and be expected to come out alive even in the face of unexpected defense. I really feel that Stellaris could learn a lot from Freespace Blue Planet.
 
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MrMarbles

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Some nice tactical suggestions from Amaroq.

Possible cons to FTL withdrawal:
1. You'd keep more ships, but so would the opponent. Instead of the rewarding feeling of decisively winning a battle, you're headed for more pop-a-mole as you try to clear up their systems.
2. Battles would be less momentous.
3. "Realism" - Not a biggie, but the whole "take x damage until ship explodes" doesn't make much sense. It's more of a metric to regulate fleet strength. In a battle, ships could equally be fine and then suddenly take catastrophic damage, destroying them or disabling FTL. So it doesn't necessarily make sense that ship captains should have the ability to retreat.

EDIT: A middle-of-the-road solution would be to reserve the individual emergency jump to capital ships.
 
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The Crawling Chaos932

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1. You will still have to pay for your ships to be repaired
2. The enemy may still pursue your fleets after the main group withdraws.
3. You will lose time and territory as your ships fall back.
4. Having ships and fleets in reserve to cordon off an area, attack stragglers and the like becomes more of a strategy

Number four becomes the biggest benefit. Having a fleet not engaged in a fight can easily pick off fleeing ships. This encourages tactics, division of assets, and more diversity in combat. All of which is a good thing to get away from doomstacking.


I feel that battles are already momentous, losing a battle can very well mean losing a planet, losing stations, and losing ships. It will just mean that you're able to come back from it more than just being smashed to oblivion instantly. Eventually there just won't be anywhere left to run to.
 
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Very Short Pepin

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Please allow me to tell my ships to fly past/ignore a given enemy. So frustrating to lose fleets because reinforcements were delayed attacking every mining station, constructor, and troop transport on the way instead of joining with the main fleet.
 
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serivahn

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What you are describing is essentially how naval combat works in HOI4, and its pretty great. I imagine they will apply a similar paradigm if they ever decide to refactor naval combat in Stellaris.
 

The Crawling Chaos932

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Some nice tactical suggestions from Amaroq.

Possible cons to FTL withdrawal:
1. You'd keep more ships, but so would the opponent. Instead of the rewarding feeling of decisively winning a battle, you're headed for more pop-a-mole as you try to clear up their systems.
2. Battles would be less momentous.
3. "Realism" - Not a biggie, but the whole "take x damage until ship explodes" doesn't make much sense. It's more of a metric to regulate fleet strength. In a battle, ships could equally be fine and then suddenly take catastrophic damage, destroying them or disabling FTL. So it doesn't necessarily make sense that ship captains should have the ability to retreat.

EDIT: A middle-of-the-road solution would be to reserve the individual emergency jump to capital ships.

Gotta disagree with this. Pitched battles still occur quite often in Company of Heroes I with this feature fully embedded into the game, and as far as I can tell, in Hearts of Iron IV. Players still sacrifice units to protect other units, ensure territory, and gain kills against opponents. Things also happen to die because of too much fire, say they're being focused. Instantaneous retreats don't have to be the option either. However long it takes to complete the jump should be the subject of balance
 

The Crawling Chaos932

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Some nice tactical suggestions from Amaroq.

Possible cons to FTL withdrawal:
1. You'd keep more ships, but so would the opponent. Instead of the rewarding feeling of decisively winning a battle, you're headed for more pop-a-mole as you try to clear up their systems.
2. Battles would be less momentous.
3. "Realism" - Not a biggie, but the whole "take x damage until ship explodes" doesn't make much sense. It's more of a metric to regulate fleet strength. In a battle, ships could equally be fine and then suddenly take catastrophic damage, destroying them or disabling FTL. So it doesn't necessarily make sense that ship captains should have the ability to retreat.

EDIT: A middle-of-the-road solution would be to reserve the individual emergency jump to capital ships.

Gotta disagree with this. Pitched battles still occur quite often in Company of Heroes and, as far as I can tell, in Hearts of Iron IV. Players still sacrifice units to protect other units, ensure territory, and gain kills against opponents. Things also happen to die because of too much fire, say they're being focused. An instantaneous retreat feature might not work the best for balance, but it's better than not having the option at all by far.
 

1skandar

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Yeah, leaving the battle up to the ships is fine, I don't need to micromanage everything. But I should be able to give the fleet some general orders. "Go here" "Ignore civilian targets" "prioritize certain types of targets". Potentially "cover retreat" where one fleet would interpose itself in the way of the enemy while another fleet withdraws to the FTL limit. And yes, "Disengage" where a fleet would try to back away from an opposing fleet and get out of weapons range.

I would also like ships to be a bit more complex than "perfectly fine" and "exploded". Taking hits while below a certain amount of HP would have a chance to damage components and potentially disabling the ship before it goes kablooey. Ships trying to fall back as they are damaged. Fleet morale where a fleet that is losing could potentially break and flee, with a more experienced admiral able to keep his ships in formation better.
 

Loddgrimner

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I would prefer if the ships had a morale system and that was the deciding factor on when the ships retreated instead of player controlled. It would probably need an experience system for the ships (a good idea anyway IMO, would dds a ton of character to them), or at least connecting it to the militarist ethos. Otherwise you easily get into the situation that optimal play dictate both players always choose "fight to the death" for decisive battles and then the whole thing was in vain.