Combat capabilities of fast divisions 1938-1942

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bshirt73

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It is a good plan. BTW, spelling is critical to use the search function, but I finally found both Yoskar Ola and Guriev. Your CAV in the north can bleed off into the swamps to protect your northern flank from counter-attack. The counter-attack will come from direction of his capital (is that Sverdlovsk?). Surrounding Stalingrad instead of the typical AoD player who "bashes at Stalingrad" is a far superior blitzkrieg having huge potential rewards - and huge risk if lacking proper units or battle tactics. The key concept about this mini-blitzkrieg to get the envelopment you described ( good area size/terrain and probable enemy actions) is that your southern pincher runs past the south of Stalingrad while MTN or INF protect the southern flank by getting the hills just north of the Caucasus. You don't want to push him into the Caucasus. But you do want to cut off the Caucasus while Stalingrad pocket is reduced and eliminated. Then later go into the Caucasus mountains. The trick is closing the pocket east of Stalingrad while 50-100 enemy divisions are threatening to fight towards Berlin. This requires speed - and there is nothing faster than Fallschirmjäger (paratroopers) to make the final connection as north and south pincher are about to meet. And in this truth was the gist of my whole debate with Pang and what I consider is his limited idea of what really are the "fast units". I don't care that they fly or however they might be categorized. I do care that they are the fastest units to achieve what is called "closing the gap".


Yes, it could be a monstrous failure with loss of PAR (if you build any), the spearhead (possibly your LtARM) cut off and annihilated, or the majority of your forces enveloped instead - or worst - a Red break out towards Berlin.

No risk...no gain is very true. After all, it is a game... and how else can one learn to run a proper blitzkrieg without starting somewhere. Believe me, when I started I also "bashed at Stalingrad". But "blitzkrieg" is the ultimate juggling act of "force balance over great speed" and avoiding enemy action to counter that. That is best done with an air force that has FTR to operate effectively there to protect the brigaded TAC (and a steady stream of airbases providing 1 new one every week) to keep FTR in range as SU will have a raft of INTs in Stalingrad. Avoid them. They are to be driven off their airfield and not fought in the skies.



No problem. It is German for paratrooper. Even though this is the English forum, I make a few tiny exceptions when it comes to giving "game flavor" to what is - arguably - AoD's finest unit. Of course, all the MPers and 90% of Forum might disagree, but they have yet to master "15 days until Moscow seized". I stress this because - in the end - there is only beating one's self set goals if playing SP.

So I applaud you for taking the risky challenge of pocketing Stalingrad instead of smashing Stalingrad. However, in 1942 - after a year of war with SU - expect Stalin to have different idea. :)


Haha, as always Commander, well said. Stalin indeed may very well have another idea. I wipe out a zillion Russian divisions when starting Barbarosa but Stalin has monster sized reserves.

Oh....I see!. I've never used paratroopers before. How do you use them? You need those huge transport airplanes I suppose? Can you drop the paratroopers anywhere within range of the transport airplanes? I would guess you need at least a couple of fighter squadrons to protect them? Is that right?

I'm very interested Commander. How do they stay in supply when/if they land behind the main Russians lines? That's a very wild idea,,,,,,please respond my kind sir.
 

Mr_B0narpte

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You need those huge transport airplanes I suppose?
Correct.
Can you drop the paratroopers anywhere within range of the transport airplanes?
Yes (except on neutral territory of course).

I would guess you need at least a couple of fighter squadrons to protect them? Is that right?
If the enemy has air units in range of your target, fighter protection would be ideal if not necessary.

I'm very interested Commander. How do they stay in supply when/if they land behind the main Russians lines?
All units have their own supply stockpile, which normally lasts 30 days without combat (or around a week in constant combat).

Oh....I see!. I've never used paratroopers before. How do you use them?
You need a paratrooper division; a transport plane with full organisation & the required air doctrine (which is a 1938 tactical bomber air doctrine). You have the paratrooper division in the same province as the transport plane. Once the transport plane is at all organisation, load up the paratrooper by clicking on the division and the airborne icon in the bottom left of the unit screen, then click on the list of air missions (it should just display airborne assault), pick your target province and watch the mission unfold.
 

bshirt73

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Correct.
Yes (except on neutral territory of course).

If the enemy has air units in range of your target, fighter protection would be ideal if not necessary.

All units have their own supply stockpile, which normally lasts 30 days without combat (or around a week in constant combat).

You need a paratrooper division; a transport plane with full organisation & the required air doctrine (which is a 1938 tactical bomber air doctrine). You have the paratrooper division in the same province as the transport plane. Once the transport plane is at all organisation, load up the paratrooper by clicking on the division and the airborne icon in the bottom left of the unit screen, then click on the list of air missions (it should just display airborne assault), pick your target province and watch the mission unfold.

Very good. Thank you so very much Mr BOnarpte! I really appreciate it.
 

Zardnaar

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Broadly speaking I agree with the argument that from a speed PoV the cav+ par thing works well.

However crushing the USSR very fast is not always the best play or at least the most interesting. Invading them in 1940 for example is no great achievement along with killing France in 1939. I think my best is around 6 weeks for the bitter peace to fire (1941 Barbarosa). I use cav over mountaineers in the Caucasus and in places like the forests of Russia and 12-18 seems to be the right number to build. They are also good in Siberia and China.

The game is fairly easy though on normal, anything basically works especially if you are playing Germany even Panzers are optional and blowing a lot of IC on transport planes may not be the best IC investment vs taking an extra month or 2 to beat the USSR. Speed run 6-8 weeks Barbarossa, 12-16 is probably more typical, campaigning in the snow or 1942 means something has gone wrong. I also assume a 1941 Barbarossa.

Hell you can even do the USSR WW1 style, I had to do this with Romania once and took out around 200 divisions using X4 TAC and X8 CAS. The AI is dumb as rocks you can invade the USSR with around 80 divisions if you have to (winning WW3 as UK or USA).

A few of the "crap" units (cav, militia, CA, BCs) are actually very useful if you know what you are doing.

I normally forget about the early game faster light tanks as I have a tendency to upgrade everything sometimes using serial runs of early war units and then upgrading them later. A single tank line in 1936 as Germany can provide all the panzers you will ever need when combined with some mech and mot infantry. Anyway paratroopers, mountaineers, and marines I often consider luxury units, generally theres not much some infantry with artillery attached can't break over say marines. I just go 3 units over the landing size and marines are a bit useless in Russia anyway. Even panzers IU generally only build in large numbers as Germany, USSR, and USA. Germany and USSR can ignore them and still win its just gonna be slow. .
 

Commander666

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Can you drop the paratroopers anywhere within range of the transport airplanes?
I very much appreciate Mr_BOnarpte already answering your questions because I tend to detail too much. Paratroopers (PAR) are an extremely complex topic, and anybody wishing to learn about them should build 1 PAR and 2 TRA (and that is all) to use for the invasion of Poland to gain battle experience. Also 1 PAR for doing France (Fall Gelb) can be interesting and helpful. And certainly a PAR can help with creating a break thru for Barbarossa - not to assist any battle but instantly land where battle was just won but your regular forces will be some hours yet to reach there. And with 2 TRA you can "jump" the PAR twice in fairly short time; and - once TRA upgrade to TRA-2 to avail of Air Supply Mission - then a pair of TRA take on a complex new function which I simply will not even mention until somebody has a pair of TRA-2 to follow discussion.


I would guess you need at least a couple of fighter squadrons to protect them? Is that right?
Contrary to what Mr_BOnarpte implied, the answer is "no" because TRA simply can not be protected from enemy aerial interception. Either you use your INT or FTR to knock down the nearby enemy first, or you fly your TRA at night for best chance that the enemy is sitting on his airbase. If TRA are just "touched" by enemy they will immediately retreat, and often survive. But if TRA are part of an aerial battle with your own fighters there is considerable chance that they will try to retreat, but the game mechanics may "pull them back into the battle" and they suffer more damage, and this can repeat several times till they eliminate (which is very fast). So, I air assault at night and monitor enemy air flights in that area several days beforehand. Then the TRA flies alone. I hot key on the TRA so I can cancel assault mid-air if I notice enemy interceptors. Slow down game speed. It is very exhilarating to play. :D

Correct. Yes (except on neutral territory of course).
To clarify, PAR can be dropped on friendly territory, but the "airborne assault" mission is reversed by clicking on friendly province first, then mission box. This is very recommended practice to learn about loading PAR, the quirks with when TRA is actually ready (it occurs AFTER reaching fully orged and not on fully orged as indicated),and studying the range possibilities as this is harder to assess with TRA-1 than TRA-2 (the latter will instantly show all whenever "air supply" is just selected in mission box).

All units have their own supply stockpile, which normally lasts 30 days without combat (or around a week in constant combat).
PAR are exceptional in their ability to last on their supplies behind enemy lines. I would need to pull up file saves to detail that but won't because no novice user of PAR should ever drop any PAR so far back so it will not be in supply - unless you have in progress a very good blitzkrieg that will see your mobiles soon connecting to the new province PAR just landed. Instead - be safe - and drop PAR to instantly take something one province further than your current frontline. Ideally, that should be empty of enemy - like an unguarded airport to force the enemy aircraft to relocate (which destroys all org in the aircraft caught on base), or close an envelopment of 2 pincers with an air drop on last province to make the surround complete.

Final word of caution - PAR and TRA are a huge investment. While I think it is worth it, they are most easily lost in combat mistake. However, they take the game to a new level, and I recommend everyone learning how to win with them. :)
 
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Commander666

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However crushing the USSR very fast is not always the best play or at least the most interesting... … ... I think my best is around 6 weeks for the bitter peace to fire (1941 Barbarosa).

This is an amusing contradiction, I think, because achieving Bitter Peace in just six week is extremely fast. FYI, running a MOT-2 over friendly territory with all infra repaired from Berlin to Baku takes 17 days by itself. So your whole Barbarossa consumes only 1 month of "combat time" but you imply that wasn't fast?

Actually, making judgements about anybody's performance in Barbarossa needs careful consideration of 2 facts - MP losses and total time. The goal should be minimum MP losses, and certainly shortening the time ends "hostile front attrition" sooner. But the "key' is speed not to post it took how ever many days, but rather speed to destroy the enemy to reduce their effectiveness and so save German soldiers lives. As such, taking Moscow within 14 days is a very profitable strategic target that leads to much easier elimination of the bulk of the Red Army west of there.

As regards personal preferences, everybody should play as they like. I can understand others liking things different from my passion - which just happens to be achieving the best blitzkrieg I possibly can. I would love to compare MP losses - be it 1940 or 1941. :D
 

Pang Bingxun

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All units have their own supply stockpile, which normally lasts 30 days without combat (or around a week in constant combat).

Unless specified otherwise land divisions and air divisions carry 14 times their daily supply consumption. Their brigades carry 28 times the supply consumption of the brigade. During movement supply consumption is at 150%, during battle it is at 300%.

Par1940 carries 14x1.5=21 supplies. Art1940 carries 28x0.48=13.44 supplies. Assumming zero resupplyment those 34.44 supplies of the brigaded division will last for 17.24 days of rest, 11.49 days of movement or 5.75 days of combat. But as combat modifiers are dropping steadily even having lost only 50% of supplies means that combat has become inefficient and expensive. One should really not wait for it to drop significantly unless there is very good plan to remedy the situation.

Naval divisions carry 90 times their daily supply consumption. Naval brigades carry 180 times the daily supply consumption of the brigade. During movement supply consumpion is at 110%, during battle at 500% and during convoy hunting at 600%.
 

Commander666

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I think I'm gonna start a book of your quotes. :)

So PAR is indeed exceptional in having relatively more supply onboard. Thought so. But - IIRC - in the battle of the 1st Fallschirmjäger who was almost eliminated during Fall Gelb where he was isolated at Dijon, that unit showed far less "out of supply" modifier than any regular surrounded division. I would need to replay that file save to discover if something else other than just bigger supply stockpile appears to be affecting things. All I can say - in my recollection - PAR are exceptional at not even getting out-of-supply modifier in most circumstances I have used them when discussing dropping behind enemy lines, as far as I have noticed (and I do tend to watch for these things). Again, I only drop them if my intel has decided enemy counter-attack will be weak. No PAR will survive forever against determined resistance, but they sure can resist quite a lot fairly easily.
 

Mr_B0narpte

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Broadly speaking I agree with the argument that from a speed PoV the cav+ par thing works well.

However crushing the USSR very fast is not always the best play or at least the most interesting. ...

The game is fairly easy though on normal, anything basically works ….

Hell you can even do the USSR WW1 style.... The AI is dumb as rocks you can invade the USSR with around 80 divisions if you have to (winning WW3 as UK or USA).

....
Sounds like you need to move to online play!
 

bshirt73

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I very much appreciate Mr_BOnarpte already answering your questions because I tend to detail too much. Paratroopers (PAR) are an extremely complex topic, and anybody wishing to learn about them should build 1 PAR and 2 TRA (and that is all) to use for the invasion of Poland to gain battle experience. Also 1 PAR for doing France (Fall Gelb) can be interesting and helpful. And certainly a PAR can help with creating a break thru for Barbarossa - not to assist any battle but instantly land where battle was just won but your regular forces will be some hours yet to reach there. And with 2 TRA you can "jump" the PAR twice in fairly short time; and - once TRA upgrade to TRA-2 to avail of Air Supply Mission - then a pair of TRA take on a complex new function which I simply will not even mention until somebody has a pair of TRA-2 to follow discussion.



Contrary to what Mr_BOnarpte implied, the answer is "no" because TRA simply can not be protected from enemy aerial interception. Either you use your INT or FTR to knock down the nearby enemy first, or you fly your TRA at night for best chance that the enemy is sitting on his airbase. If TRA are just "touched" by enemy they will immediately retreat, and often survive. But if TRA are part of an aerial battle with your own fighters there is considerable chance that they will try to retreat, but the game mechanics may "pull them back into the battle" and they suffer more damage, and this can repeat several times till they eliminate (which is very fast). So, I air assault at night and monitor enemy air flights in that area several days beforehand. Then the TRA flies alone. I hot key on the TRA so I can cancel assault mid-air if I notice enemy interceptors. Slow down game speed. It is very exhilarating to play. :D


To clarify, PAR can be dropped on friendly territory, but the "airborne assault" mission is reversed by clicking on friendly province first, then mission box. This is very recommended practice to learn about loading PAR, the quirks with when TRA is actually ready (it occurs AFTER reaching fully orged and not on fully orged as indicated),and studying the range possibilities as this is harder to assess with TRA-1 than TRA-2 (the latter will instantly show all whenever "air supply" is just selected in mission box).


PAR are exceptional in their ability to last on their supplies behind enemy lines. I would need to pull up file saves to detail that but won't because no novice user of PAR should ever drop any PAR so far back so it will not be in supply - unless you have in progress a very good blitzkrieg that will see your mobiles soon connecting to the new province PAR just landed. Instead - be safe - and drop PAR to instantly take something one province further than your current frontline. Ideally, that should be empty of enemy - like an unguarded airport to force the enemy aircraft to relocate (which destroys all org in the aircraft caught on base), or close an envelopment of 2 pincers with an air drop on last province to make the surround complete.

Final word of caution - PAR and TRA are a huge investment. While I think it is worth it, they are most easily lost in combat mistake. However, they take the game to a new level, and I recommend everyone learning how to win with them. :)

Again, very good scoop sir. I can see the high risk "and" good potential flavor using PAR/TRA. Very, very interesting scheme Commander. For sure, I'll have to get some experience using them. At night and slow checking......sounds like big fun!

Thank you Commander!
 

Pang Bingxun

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So PAR is indeed exceptional in having relatively more supply onboard.

But the opposite is true. Relatively to the respective consumption brigaded Par carries less supplies than brigaded infantry. The unbrigaded division carries 14 days of consumption in either case, but the higher supply consumption of Paratroopers means that the brigaded divisions carries fewer days of consumption.

If it were possible to drop regular infantry like paratroopers, than it would be able to last better than them.

For the "out of supply" modifier only the ratio current supplies / max supplies matters.
 

Zardnaar

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This is an amusing contradiction, I think, because achieving Bitter Peace in just six week is extremely fast. FYI, running a MOT-2 over friendly territory with all infra repaired from Berlin to Baku takes 17 days by itself. So your whole Barbarossa consumes only 1 month of "combat time" but you imply that wasn't fast?

Actually, making judgements about anybody's performance in Barbarossa needs careful consideration of 2 facts - MP losses and total time. The goal should be minimum MP losses, and certainly shortening the time ends "hostile front attrition" sooner. But the "key' is speed not to post it took how ever many days, but rather speed to destroy the enemy to reduce their effectiveness and so save German soldiers lives. As such, taking Moscow within 14 days is a very profitable strategic target that leads to much easier elimination of the bulk of the Red Army west of there.

As regards personal preferences, everybody should play as they like. I can understand others liking things different from my passion - which just happens to be achieving the best blitzkrieg I possibly can. I would love to compare MP losses - be it 1940 or 1941. :D

I used paratroopers IIRC to grab Baku. May have been cave I had some light armor drive hard on Sverdlosk which is the hard one to get to. There is also a bit of RNG involved and where the AI has put its units- its a pain when they dump a few east of Stalingrad and you have 3 lt armor pushing on Sverdlosk. I have only pulled off 6 weeks once, RNG and the build I used I think is good for speed run on Russia, not so good in general. I'll often have something like 15-20 panzers, 6-8 MOT, and few if any mech for Barbarossa 41.

3-4 months is more typical IMHO, as Germany I tend to have the bare minimum for Poland/France (3 lots of IC built+ don't start building until 1939 tanks+troops), and sometimes even have 1918 and 1936 inf being used in Poland and I have built a grand total of 3 panzers by then.

Most of the Wehrmacht is built 1940/41 for me and I'll go into the USSR 1941 with 150-180 odd units+ Romania/Hungary.

If I want to invade the UK 1940 or something I'll build an early navy and maybe only X2 IC builds or only on key provinces.
 

Zardnaar

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Sounds like you need to move to online play!

I used to but got sick of the long wait to wartime game and then someone doesn't turn up or the USSR player ragequits or something. THere were also hgouserules used (no switching doctrines, no fascist USA, no selling fleets, must trade with Axis, no spreading dissent spy option, no Japan invades USSR). Said rules were to stop things like Japan selling fleet to Germany, and no sow dissent bombing by the allies (when USA+ UK+Aussie+South Africa+ Canada dissent bomb Germany). Oh and no filling France with all of the allied troops as well.
 

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Hmmn screwed up my barbarossa. Fast untits got to Sverdlosk very quick, the AI dealt with them and slowed me down in te Moscow vicinity. Recovered but looking at 1942 bitter peace.
 

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But the opposite is true. Relatively to the respective consumption brigaded Par carries less supplies than brigaded infantry. The unbrigaded division carries 14 days of consumption in either case, but the higher supply consumption of Paratroopers means that the brigaded divisions carries fewer days of consumption.

While I believe you, something doesn't seem right. But I not sure I have time to check it. However, others have also remarked on the special ability of PAR to withstand attacks upon it.
 

Commander666

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3-4 months is more typical.

This I believe, and even that I would call "fast". The reason is that it is one thing to talk about entering Moscow, but another to talk about getting the distant "Bitter Peace victory provinces", and still another to record the date that Bitter Peace Event occurred.

1) Firstly, entering Moscow can be accomplished by a really fast blitzkrieg in 15-30 days (although better may be possible). But this is only a strategic victory to the end of the beginning of Barbarossa.

2) Phase 2 often begins with a month long delay to mop up all west of Moscow and reorganize for the next push eastwards. A month is reasonable even in a fast conquest because of terrain and movement time. Meanwhile progress towards Baku is probably happening, and so it is taken.

3) But the next phase - taking Sverdlovsk - may not happen at all for a long time; and instead only be a purposeful surround of Sverdlovsk and elimination of all within - but not entering that province. It can be decided to "delay any chance of Bitter Peace firing" while the last phase begins.

Phase 3 - if it occurs - is the taking of much territory past Sverdlovsk to be able to liberate the Trans-Ural Republic and Kazakhstan (and possibly 4 more "stans" in the south near Persia just before BP will fire. Because BP will give 30 free dissent reduction it is extremely prudent for Germany to consume that wisely and create 6 puppets (for free) and so give the SU the worst defeat it can possibly have (other than annexation).

Finally we arrive at the day when Sverdlovsk can be safely entered because all is waiting for BP to fire. In new version this happens day after, but in v1.09 it can happen a week to a coupe months after Sverdlovsk is entered.

Given the above "best way" to do BP we can see that a really fast Barbarossa might take several months. In the case of v1.09 add a possible 2 months more just waiting for the event to fire. Of course, the real scoop will be liberating 6 nations (and having 30 dissent) while hoping that BP fires the next day! :D

Got to love 1.11 for some great improvements although I like better my idea that "free dissent reduction" can be used "post-event" for a few days after event fires to eliminate the huge problem with "missing on being able to use the free dissent reduction". :)
 

Zardnaar

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I have used the old -5 dissent for the BP to create Kazakhstan. You can get to Sverdlosk faster b bypassing Stalingrad with Mech or lt tanks while leaving Baku for slower moving cav units and spend the month or so moppping up west of Moscow.
 

Commander666

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Kazakhstan is good, but Trans-Ural is probably the first and most important. The former only raises a few INF, the latter many more and, together, they give considerable protection from SU after peace deal expires. But there are 4 more countries between Persia and Kazakhstan that will create an SU enclave unless liberated before BP fires. It seems, IMO, the -30 dissent reduction with achieving BP should be "consumed" to get those puppets for free. I use the "old" game too, but this has not changed in 1.11 AFAIK.
 

Zardnaar

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Kazakhstan is good, but Trans-Ural is probably the first and most important. The former only raises a few INF, the latter many more and, together, they give considerable protection from SU after peace deal expires. But there are 4 more countries between Persia and Kazakhstan that will create an SU enclave unless liberated before BP fires. It seems, IMO, the -30 dissent reduction with achieving BP should be "consumed" to get those puppets for free. I use the "old" game too, but this has not changed in 1.11 AFAIK.

I created Aerbajan as a puppet. Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Trans-ural are all decent options as well. Ukraine gives decent energy while Baku has 200+ oil on it in my game. Transural-Ukraine have decent tech teams and manpower similar to Romania while Kazakstan has low MP. those are the 4 puppets that matter. With my conversion techs and facilities I am running positive amounts of all resources 1943. Probably won't use their armies for much but guarding beaches and mountains in Persia are decent options. Fortress Europa. Energy and oil pupets are very good, French Guyanna for a metal puppet. Oil and energy mean more rares as well and I built around 8 or 10 conversion plants.
 

Commander666

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I just had my reply typed. But checking it before posting, I realized we got pretty far from the OT, so will skip my reply. :)