Colonies: The new taint

[Squirrelloid]

While all that's true, it's difficult to deal with in game for a number of reasons, not least of which because it's supposed to be fun to colonise and follow history.

Why does this argument get to apply to foreign colonizers, but not local colonizers? Isn't it also fun to create a Native power (In the Americas, Africa, etc..) and change history? If Europeans can have ahistoric colonization, why not the peoples who are living *right there*.

Again, it is only CNs (which are not necessarily European) which avoid the floor on provincial autonomy. European colonisers in Africa have no such luck (and, in fact, are intrinsically worse at using the land than a native African coloniser, who doesn't need a land connection to get below 75% autonomy). And Wiz has also said he understands the need to have a mechanic for native colonisers to lower it at some point so that the first provinces you colonise aren't at 50% autonomy forever.

But let's be honest, most CNs are going to be Europeans, including pretty much every AI CN ever. (And the fact that, as an American native, you can colonize the other American continent, release and play as your CN, and reconquer your homeland to use it more productively than the parent nation - that's just silly).

Of course, that only applies to a subset of the rule, albeit the one that's most commonly being talked about here. Really, it's a change for gameplay purposes, because native colonisers (anywhere, not just the Americas) can so easily build a huge colonial empire before the Europeans (and CNs) can get there, and without completely overhauling how colonisation works or arbitrarily locking it off it's the easiest path to great power almost everywhere.

That's not really true unless you're in Asia. Portugal is in the Americas so early that you can westernize before you reach Tech 4 (at least without CoP), even as a North American native, so long as there's someone next to them that you can conquer and core. My Cherokee game westernized without doing any tech advancement whatsoever.

 

[Freudia]

And Wiz has also said he understands the need to have a mechanic for native colonisers to lower it at some point so that the first provinces you colonise aren't at 50% autonomy forever.

What I want to know is how did this thought not cross his mind (or, if it did, how did it get deemed not important enough to have it ready for 1.8) before it was mentioned on the forums?

I'm aware there's priorities involved in a patch as large as this, but this is something I would have rated higher than quite a few other things, honestly. I'm more curious than frustrated in this regard.

 

[Kyoumen]

Why does this argument get to apply to foreign colonizers, but not local colonizers? Isn't it also fun to create a Native power (In the Americas, Africa, etc..) and change history? If Europeans can have ahistoric colonization, why not the peoples who are living *right there*.

You will still be able to create a native power and change history. It will just be less trivially easy. If it were making it impossible I'd be right there with you, but nothing suggests it is or is even making it as hard as, say, a Byzantium game.

Also, c'mon, you at least have to acknowledge my point that the exact same reasoning you use to say the change is racist for the Americas, means that it is racist against Europeans in Africa (even for the odd European player who makes a land connection to their capital and avoid the 75% autonomy, they're still intrinsically inferior to African colonisers, who can get 50% autonomy without a land connection to the colony). And I doubt you really believe that this change is because Paradox thinks Africans are superior to the European untermenschen, right?

But let's be honest, most CNs are going to be Europeans, including pretty much every AI CN ever. (And the fact that, as an American native, you can colonize the other American continent, release and play as your CN, and reconquer your homeland to use it more productively than the parent nation - that's just silly).

Sure, but I doubt it'll honestly be that worthwhile to do so. You're taking a significant opportunity cost while creating it (CNs do not benefit you nearly as much as real provinces, even at 50% autonomy), you have to make them big enough to be viable on their own and to be able to win when you switch and do the independence war, and it'll delay you a lot in trying to cut off and limit the growth of European CNs (which will already be more difficult to do than before AOW). I'll be curious to see how people go with it, but I suspect it ends up a suboptimal strategy for most people.

That's not really true unless you're in Asia. Portugal is in the Americas so early that you can westernize before you reach Tech 4 (at least without CoP), even as a North American native, so long as there's someone next to them that you can conquer and core. My Cherokee game westernized without doing any tech advancement whatsoever.

It's also true in Africa, when European colonisation is pretty slow (they hit the Gold Coast and such pretty early, but don't quickly go inland) and even more so with the changes in AOW.

That being said, I've never had any trouble being a large empire before I ever see Portugal - they usually don't show up for 50 or 60 years, which is more than enough to dominate the continent with any native state with the COP mechanics.

 

[Squirrelloid]

You will still be able to create a native power and change history. It will just be less trivially easy. If it were making it impossible I'd be right there with you, but nothing suggests it is or is even making it as hard as, say, a Byzantium game.

Also, c'mon, you at least have to acknowledge my point that the exact same reasoning you use to say the change is racist for the Americas, means that it is racist against Europeans in Africa (even for the odd European player who makes a land connection to their capital and avoid the 75% autonomy, they're still intrinsically inferior to African colonisers, who can get 50% autonomy without a land connection to the colony). And I doubt you really believe that this change is because Paradox thinks Africans are superior to the European untermenschen, right?

I've advocated elsewhere, or possibly even in this thread, that if there's going to be any LA floor, it should be tied to distance from capital, and the nonsense about 'same continent' vs. 'distant overseas' should be removed. The loss of ability to govern *across the mediterranean* is pretty galling, from an historical perspective.

Sure, but I doubt it'll honestly be that worthwhile to do so. You're taking a significant opportunity cost while creating it (CNs do not benefit you nearly as much as real provinces, even at 50% autonomy), you have to make them big enough to be viable on their own and to be able to win when you switch and do the independence war, and it'll delay you a lot in trying to cut off and limit the growth of European CNs (which will already be more difficult to do than before AOW). I'll be curious to see how people go with it, but I suspect it ends up a suboptimal strategy for most people.

It'll be more valuable for S. American Incan states, who can quickly find some colonizable North America, and because the Caribbean counts as North American. And with the piles of gold in Incan territories, using it to fund quick colonization efforts before the inflation bankrupts you, then switching to the colonies, would both let you 'reset' your inflation to zero (and westernize before subjecting yourself to it again if you didn't manage to before making the CN), and give you a national idea which helps handle inflation for after the reconquest while leaving the parent state an easily conquered financial mess.

My guess is it'll be possible by the early 1500s, and since it'll snowball much faster, it'll be quite worthwhile.

I'm curious to see if Europeans will even attack incan states now, if Inca doesn't form. But the released CN should be safe - it is neither Inca nor Aztec, so the europeans will neither rival you nor get missions against you.

 

[iShurik]

The unrest is high in this Thread But seriously, I hope this "issue" is "fixed" soon in some way. IMO there is just no need for this floor in any way; siberia is poor, african, asian and american nations are far behind in tech, ming has min 50% LA modifier anyway. And then there are silly things like colonial nations don't get this LA floor, with no justification but "ballance". There are really a lot of issues about this system pointed out in this thread.
I don't know why exactly, but this design really gives me headache. Maybe because it makes no sense or maybe because it breakes "immersion". I think it's fine to tie a LA floor to government type (or even to tech groups) and let newly colonized provinces start out with a high amount of LA, because it makes sense, but having this LA floor for everyone but not for CNs just doesn't.
Also in the later start dates, are there these floors working in Russias former colonized Siberian provinces?

 

[Bragi]

I think it's fine to tie a LA floor to government type (or even to tech groups)

This is a very good point. As far as I know, the era wherein EUIV takes place is highly shaped by the decline of feudalism and the power of nobility. Feudal constructs merged into more centralised "states" or "nations" during this time period, mainly for european nations. It is still a generalisation, of course, and does not depict developement around the globe.
Therefore, it would make very much sense to connect LA caps to tech groups, gov types or, maybe more useful, tech level and ideas/idea groups. Since LA comes with both advantages and disadvantages, you are capable of forming your own unique form of ruling and reigning your country.

 

[Blastaz]

This is a very good point. As far as I know, the era wherein EUIV takes place is highly shaped by the decline of feudalism and the power of nobility. Feudal constructs merged into more centralised "states" or "nations" during this time period, mainly for european nations. It is still a generalisation, of course, and does not depict developement around the globe.
Therefore, it would make very much sense to connect LA caps to tech groups, gov types or, maybe more useful, tech level and ideas/idea groups. Since LA comes with both advantages and disadvantages, you are capable of forming your own unique form of ruling and reigning your country.

Sensible.

It would also mean there was an incentive to change government again. They were important in EUIII but I barely notice them in IV.

 

[Masquinongy]

+1
Exactly. This is the obvious most elegant solution.

 

[Haukionkala]

As I said, I think people should do themselves the favor of actually *trying* the new mechanics/map in actions before they write off everyone on three continents.

I'm not saying not to criticize, I'm not saying you have to like the changes, just that 'Why would I ever play in America now?' seems a tad on the hyperbolic side.

I don't know if you've commented on this more or not since I don't really want to read the full 17 pages... But I'm not claiming that Native Americans or Malays would be impossible to play now. They will be slightly weaker because of this change, which is perfectly ok.

What is not ok, however, is such a permanent, arbitrary modifier. It feels really, really annoying. Not fun at all. You'll just have that modifier staring at you saying "Nah nah nah! You can't have a good province here because you're not originally from another continent!" Completely arbitrary and creates unnecessary frustration in gameplay.

Why not just make such colonisation more costly? Perhaps not in money but allow the player to use ADM or DIP points to lower the autonomy. Don't make it permanent.

 

[PhroX]

I don't know if you've commented on this more or not since I don't really want to read the full 17 pages... But I'm not claiming that Native Americans or Malays would be impossible to play now. They will be slightly weaker because of this change, which is perfectly ok.

What is not ok, however, is such a permanent, arbitrary modifier. It feels really, really annoying. Not fun at all. You'll just have that modifier staring at you saying "Nah nah nah! You can't have a good province here because you're not originally from another continent!" Completely arbitrary and creates unnecessary frustration in gameplay.

Why not just make such colonisation more costly? Perhaps not in money but allow the player to use ADM or DIP points to lower the autonomy. Don't make it permanent.

To be fair to Wiz, he has acknowledged that never being able to get autonomy down doesn't make much sense, and he's going to look at it further in the future.

 

[Payens]

They nicely avoided this whole debacle on the stream just now. Wow. Just wow. Not even mentioning it when basically being pressed to talk about it at one point. One would think they are politicians at times lol

 

[LastSalian]

They nicely avoided this whole debacle on the stream just now. Wow. Just wow. Not even mentioning it when basically being pressed to talk about it at one point. One would think they are politicians at times lol

Not the first time they change something, but are not fully aware what they did. Remember manpower attached to base tax?

 

[Khaelgor]

From what i could see from the stream, an unified mesoamerican civilization will have roughly 3x more provinces than before AoW. Since there is no new province in Europe, i'd guess it's a balance decision. Although, i hope that, once a CN is independent, it has the same penalty.

I do agree that we should be able to lower the penalty, but slowly (make it cost MP - more if the province has just finished being setled).

 

[Payens]

Not the first time they change something, but are not fully aware what they did. Remember manpower attached to base tax?

Aye, I do remember. Better don't get me started on that one though^^

Well, the DLC hits soon. We'll see how it turns out. If it turns out to be as is suspected in this thread, many more people will start asking for change, perhaps then we will see action, right?

 

[Payens]

Although, i hope that, once a CN is independent, it has the same penalty.

CN and former CNs are not affected by the penalty. So no, once independent they still get the real deal, as opposed to everyone else :/

 

[AnotherGeneric]

Aye, I do remember. Better don't get me started on that one though^^

Well, the DLC hits soon. We'll see how it turns out. If it turns out to be as is suspected in this thread, many more people will start asking for change, perhaps then we will see action, right?

Only if it impacts multiplayer though.

 

[Payens]

Only if it impacts multiplayer though.

Yeah... That is a whole other problem. It's basically the source of many undesired changes over time. Multiplayer kind of eats into the singleplayer experience, sadly.

 

[Big Blue Blob]

If they want to make native Americans weaker, then they should just have lowered basetax in the American provinces, or added more provinces to Europe to balance things. This alleged solution makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[LastSalian]

Aye, I do remember. Better don't get me started on that one though^^

Well, the DLC hits soon. We'll see how it turns out. If it turns out to be as is suspected in this thread, many more people will start asking for change, perhaps then we will see action, right?

Certainly. Really want to play Aztecs and Incas and try out their new NIs.

 

[LastSalian]

If they want to make native Americans weaker, then they should just have lowered basetax in the American provinces, or added more provinces to Europe to balance things. This alleged solution makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

They are already weaker cause of technology. My guess is they tried to conceptualize overseas provinces into a more abstract thing, but due to time constraints, they could only fix the mess for CNs.