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TheMeInTeam

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So? They're supposed to be stronger. They were in real life, due to factors that nothing could actually change.

I suggest you actually address the point. It'd be a nice change of pace. Good luck.

You are failing to make any coherent point why making it less easy to dominate a continent as an American native (of colonising all of East Asia as Korea) is actually a bad thing.

What you are doing is a fallacy called shifting the burden of proof. Normally, when a change is made, the burden of proof sits on the reason for changing it. My point is that nations that are already week are being made weaker, when in AI hands (isn't this what's supposed to matter?) they rarely, if ever, outperformed history. As a result, nerfing weak nations specifically in the colonial game while leaving the very best ones (ones that don't have inflation problems as they did historically or fall off late game as they did historically in Spain's case) untouched.

If you are attempting to make a balance argument, nerfing weaker nations and leaving stronger ones intact is irrational. If you are attempting to make a historical argument, the entire premise of how colonization presently functions is flagrantly ridiculous, not to mention the concept of native populations that adopt western ways of thinking struggling to match what colonial westerners can do despite it being their own land. In the context of the game, this change literally implies native peoples were less capable, inherently, of handling their own land than the Europeans.

is actually a bad thing. You are also not making any point as to why a powerful CN shouldn't end up with higher basetax and more manpower than surviving native states despite the fact this is precisely what actually happened in real life and the primary reason why no native American states (including large coalitions) remained fully independent.

That's funny. I don't recall a westernized native tribe competing with Europe for colonization. But that's possible in the game...in fact it's a WAD mechanic. So tell me, what about these people was inherently inferior that if they were on par with their "colonial nation" neighbors, they couldn't handle it?

Surely, you're not going to cite history and how it applies to situations that did or did not happen wrt gameplay mechanics only when convenient, right? We're not going to go down that route again, correct?
 

Kyoumen

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The colonial master still can colonize for them. CNs don't do most of their own colonizing - they're too slow. Anyone who is depending on CNs to do their own colonization will be waiting a long time and will lose territory to rival colonial powers. Meanwhile, the master nation is not penalized on colonization speed, and is the nation the natives have to compete with on colonization.

The AI doesn't do this well. If you're playing the colonial master, focusing heavily on expanding a single CN is setting up a potential dangerous foe in future (especially with the changes in AOW). If you want to play the CN, you are not going to have the colonial master doing the whole thing for you (since that will mean waiting until late game).

The CNs also don't have to westernize, which is risky and expensive, and will start with a large technology speed. Conquering with a CN will be trivially easier than conquering as a native, especially if the master nation assists. (And in 1.73 they do. France lands 20-30k stacks in the Americas, even when its not fighting a war. French troops with French NIs and lucky generals is a lot of pain for a native nation)

In 1.73, if France even has a CN than the player has probably done something wrong (since they're a relatively late coloniser). And fighting the French is hard for anyone, not just native states. The AI is still woefully bad at supporting overseas armies, and fabian tactics work against large European armies provided you have reasonable military tech parity and a sufficiently large hinterland to move around in (especially with Defensive, which is a good idea set for natives).

Seriously, who thinks the CN's own colonists is even an argument for this? That's just bonus *extra* colonization the CNs get in addition to their colonial master. So yes, CNs do potentially colonize faster, because they can get all the master's colonists plus their own gimpy colonist who holds a territory and eventually integrates it. (And the AI rarely, if ever, gets attacked by natives. I think I see it happen maybe once per game, and only ever in the absolute worst aggressive territories.)

Yes, though that's way more of a problem for ahistoric early colonisation of Africa.

Finally, former CNs are no longer penalized on colonization speed.

If you let a CN get large enough to successfully fight its master (which basically the AI never does anyway, though that should hopefully change in AOW), then they should be a formidable foe to fight on equal terms and should expand rapidly. That is indeed precisely what happened with the USA in real life.
 

Kyoumen

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I suggest you actually address the point. It'd be a nice change of pace. Good luck.

I wonder, do you really think it helps you get your point across to be a rude git in every single thread about gameplay mechanics ever? Do you get valuable internet points for insulting every dev and other poster you have a conversation with? Does it make you hard? I assume there has to be some reason you do it.

What you are doing is a fallacy called shifting the burden of proof. Normally, when a change is made, the burden of proof sits on the reason for changing it.

The reason for changing it was "colonising on the same continent or with a land connection is both disproportionately and ahistorically easy and rewarding".

It was. Nobody's actually seriously disputed this yet, including you.

My point is that nations that are already week are being made weaker, when in AI hands (isn't this what's supposed to matter?) they rarely, if ever, outperformed history.

Actually, player hands matter way more than AI hands. That aside, I see native countries outperforming real life in pretty much every game (usually by continuing to exist).

As a result, nerfing weak nations specifically in the colonial game while leaving the very best ones (ones that don't have inflation problems as they did historically or fall off late game as they did historically in Spain's case) untouched.

"Nerfing weak nations specifically". Literally every country in the game has the same penalty except for CNs and former CNs. That is the exact opposite of doing anything "specifically". It is a universal rule with a specific exception.

(snip the rest because frankly, talking to you is tiresome and it was a mistake to ever respond to you at all. I'll continue to respond to other people in the thread who are capable of discussing issues politely.)
 

Kyoumen

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Want to bet Wiz hasn't actually played an American tribe, subsaharan African nation, or Malaysian nation at all? Actually, I'd lay good odds that no one has playtested any of these nations. The design team isn't that large, and they probably spent most of their playtesting effort on Europe (and much of it on the 30 years war specifically).

While it's certainly true that Paradox's QA is horrid (although I was told that they made some changes and more playtesting by a dev for this expansion awhile back, so I'm being cautiously optimistic), I believe Wiz actually said he had played them.

Edit: Yes, he did testplay with them himself, mentioned on post #66 of the 1.8 Patchnotes thread.

Though, on the subject of wagers, I wonder if you'll take me up on this. The first game I play in AOW is probably going to be a unify-Inca-and-expand game, or a Pacific Northwest native (my other possibilities were a Manchu unification game or Ainu, but I can put those aside). If I think it is too much of a nerf, I'll (un)happily admit I was wrong and lay out my complaints in whatever thread is currently about it. If you play and find that being a native state is still very viable, will you do the same?
 
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Squirrelloid

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The AI doesn't do this well. If you're playing the colonial master, focusing heavily on expanding a single CN is setting up a potential dangerous foe in future (especially with the changes in AOW). If you want to play the CN, you are not going to have the colonial master doing the whole thing for you (since that will mean waiting until late game).

Funny, my Venice game (where I did not participate in any colonial reindeer games) saw AI England with all of Central America and Columbia (as CNs, minus only the Zapotecs, who successfully rebelled because England's colonies were getting their clock cleaned at the time by France and their colonies), Spain with all of Louisiana and the US south west as CNs, Portugal with all of Brazil and Argentina, and France with virtually the entire Thirteen Colonies region plus some extensions, excluding only the natives (whom european AIs never seem to bother to fight). The new world was completely filled by ~1620 iirc. So the AI already does this, a lot, and fights colonial wars for odd provinces that happen to be colonized in its zone (or maybe just takes them during other regular european wars, I honestly wasn't paying that much attention to the Americas).

And if you want to release and play as a CN, you are no longer limited in colonization speed. Although filling out one CN zone should be doable pretty rapidly as Portugal or Spain, or even France. The problem is competition from other Europeans.

In 1.73, if France even has a CN than the player has probably done something wrong (since they're a relatively late coloniser). And fighting the French is hard for anyone, not just native states. The AI is still woefully bad at supporting overseas armies, and fabian tactics work against large European armies provided you have reasonable military tech parity and a sufficiently large hinterland to move around in (especially with Defensive, which is a good idea set for natives).

In the game I'm thinking of, my Utrecht to Netherlands game, where I colonized most of the US and half the Caribbean, France managed 4 provinces in various future US areas and a CN in Canada (some of which was stolen from GB), with no disruption of Castillian colonization and only minor disruption of Portugese colonization. (Took 2 colonies they established in the US). France still dropped off several 30k stacks of units in the Americas.

Yes, though that's way more of a problem for ahistoric early colonisation of Africa.

Well, it's a problem everywhere, but Africa and Indonesia are especially bad.

If you let a CN get large enough to successfully fight its master (which basically the AI never does anyway, though that should hopefully change in AOW), then they should be a formidable foe to fight on equal terms and should expand rapidly. That is indeed precisely what happened with the USA in real life.

Um, no. The US won their War of Independence because GB couldn't be bothered to send enough force to occupy the colonies. Strategically, the war was lost from day one. British forces were completely inadequate to the task, and there was no viable way to achieve victory. Their only hope was a large loyalist uprising, sufficiently large to make up for their lack of manpower, which never materialized. Which is why George Washington mostly refused pitched battles and hampered enemy movements, because he knew the British couldn't win unless he wasted his army.

It's been known since Antiquity that the only way to subjugate a country is to bring enough force to compel a pitched battle, by occupying sufficient territory that there is nowhere to run. Otherwise a guerilla army can always escape and you'll never bring the population to heel, because you can only exert control *where your armies are*. Julius Caesar's campaign in Spain is the epitomy of the problem and its solution, and the underlying logic was just as true for the American Revolution as it was for Caesar pacifying Iberia.

The game, of course, does a terrible job of representing this in general, although the AI's normal failure to supply soldiers *at all* to colonial wars (France seems to be the only country that does) does end up replicating the result in many colonial cases. But let's not pretend things about history which aren't true to try to justify changes.
 

TheMeInTeam

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I wonder, do you really think it helps you get your point across to be a rude git in every single thread about gameplay mechanics ever? Do you get valuable internet points for insulting every dev and other poster you have a conversation with? Does it make you hard? I assume there has to be some reason you do it.

Occasionally I see a message like this. I'm always amused that it comes from someone who feels I'm being insulting after ignoring what has actually been said. That points aren't addressed in this thread is the norm, so yes it is a change of pace. Suggesting you address my point is a simple plea that you not ignore it, so that an actual discussion can occur.

The reason for changing it was "colonising on the same continent or with a land connection is both disproportionately and ahistorically easy and rewarding".

It was. Nobody's actually seriously disputed this yet, including you.

What I disputed, clearly and unanswered, is that this is an insufficient basis for nerfing weak nations, specifically because acquiring land in general is both disproportionately and ahistorically easy and rewarding, and so using this criteria would be grounds to nerf virtually anything in theory regardless of actual basis, including the precious CNs that aren't being nerfed in the slightest.

As a result, it is perfectly reasonable, by the logic of Wiz's new mechanic, to create a powerful USA in 1550-1570 (I have done this as Tyrone) and play as it with no penalty to this supposedly amazingly overpowered mechanic...but if you play as say Maya then you absolutely must take a penalty because you are inherently inferior even after you westernize. Maya is too easy compared to Portugal or Spain, you see.

Surprise surprise, this wasn't actually addressed ever, but I'm the one supposedly being insulting for suggesting that it is addressed.

Actually, player hands matter way more than AI hands. That aside, I see native countries outperforming real life in pretty much every game (usually by continuing to exist).

? Multiple native tribes outlived the period so you're quite wrong there, and that's before we get into the absurdity of AI protectorates which causes a lot of this "living" yet has 0 to do with actual native power.

"Nerfing weak nations specifically". Literally every country in the game has the same penalty except for CNs and former CNs. That is the exact opposite of doing anything "specifically". It is a universal rule with a specific exception.

A specific exception given to the strongest set of nations to take advantage of colonies in the game. Keep in mind, that in not penalizing CNs, you are also not penalizing western European powers...the most likely candidates to have gobs of colonies. A human player attempting to buck history now must accept that his people are portrayed as inherently inferior...and all for what? When were these nations too strong again?

It is supposedly perfectly okay to have WC be achievable...but it isn't okay for a westernized native nation to get full value from an adjacent province...and this is all okay because history.

(snip the rest because frankly, talking to you is tiresome and it was a mistake to ever respond to you at all. I'll continue to respond to other people in the thread who are capable of discussing issues politely.)

I love how rude I am to suggest my points be addressed after the are ignored repeatedly, and yet in the very same post I see a familiar logical fallacy creeping in, good old ad hominem. Something about glass houses comes to mind with this quote.
 

Kyoumen

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Funny, my Venice game (where I did not participate in any colonial reindeer games) saw AI England with all of Central America and Columbia (as CNs, minus only the Zapotecs, who successfully rebelled because England's colonies were getting their clock cleaned at the time by France and their colonies), Spain with all of Louisiana and the US south west as CNs, Portugal with all of Brazil and Argentina, and France with virtually the entire Thirteen Colonies region plus some extensions, excluding only the natives (whom european AIs never seem to bother to fight). The new world was completely filled by ~1620 iirc. So the AI already does this, a lot, and fights colonial wars for odd provinces that happen to be colonized in its zone (or maybe just takes them during other regular european wars, I honestly wasn't paying that much attention to the Americas).

So your anecdotal experience differs from mine. Not much I or you can do about that, since we don't have the tools to do large-scale datamining of games. That being said, even if your scenario was the norm, it is a norm that is about to become obsolete, with the vastly larger amount of provinces in 1.8.

And if you want to release and play as a CN, you are no longer limited in colonization speed. Although filling out one CN zone should be doable pretty rapidly as Portugal or Spain, or even France. The problem is competition from other Europeans.

Well, again, if you think it'll be so much more trivial to fill up a continent as a CN than a native state, go for it. I don't think it will be, though arguably it actually should be.

Um, no. The US won their War of Independence because GB couldn't be bothered to send enough force to occupy the colonies. Strategically, the war was lost from day one. British forces were completely inadequate to the task, and there was no viable way to achieve victory. Their only hope was a large loyalist uprising, sufficiently large to make up for their lack of manpower, which never materialized. Which is why George Washington mostly refused pitched battles and hampered enemy movements, because he knew the British couldn't win unless he wasted his army.

The US "won" "their" War of Independence because France and the Netherlands did most of the fighting and funded the American part of the war. Washington was incapable of even paying his men, or supplying them with ammunition, and until French aid in both areas solved them he was suffering from significant desertion problems (they also sent military advisors to train the American militias). Much of the US population at the time was ambivalent towards the revolution and a significant fraction were loyalist, and if the revolutionary army had been decisively defeated and the leaders hung, that would have been that. Britain couldn't have kept their US colonies forever (the power differential between them was lessening, a trend that would only continue and inevitably cause independence one way or another), but in 1776, it was anything but impossible for them to win.

Plus the whole thing was only one part of a larger war, that continued for years after Yorktown (and ended with Britain being forced to return colonies to a victorious France). That's all off-topic for this thread, though.
 

Squirrelloid

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While it's certainly true that Paradox's QA is horrid (although I was told that they made some changes and more playtesting by a dev for this expansion awhile back, so I'm being cautiously optimistic), I believe Wiz actually said he had played them.

Edit: Yes, he did testplay with them himself, mentioned on post #66 of the 1.8 Patchnotes thread.

Though, on the subject of wagers, I wonder if you'll take me up on this. The first game I play in AOW is probably going to be a unify-Inca-and-expand game, or a Pacific Northwest native (my other possibilities were a Manchu unification game or Ainu, but I can put those aside). If I think it is too much of a nerf, I'll (un)happily admit I was wrong and lay out my complaints in whatever thread is currently about it. If you play and find that being a native state is still very viable, will you do the same?

Well, this particular change has actually killed all my enthusiasm for actually playing an American Native or an African kingdom. I was going to do Sunset Invasion and/or African Power after the patch until I saw this, but I'd rather play something that will still be fun if I bother to play at all. And I don't think I can even do the switch to CN trick and still complete Sunset Invasion, although demonstrating that ridiculousness might be mildly entertaining... it won't lead me to conclude I was wrong.

Honestly, this change might make me quit the game. My interests are clearly not as eurocentric as the designers, and the european games I have played have been sufficient that europe feels stale and boring. Also, this change offends me. It implies Native Americans aren't as capable as Europeans, even if they westernize. The Horde nerf + associated design philosophy similarly offends me. The developers might not be intentionally racist, but this is racism, and failure to understand that is not an excuse. I certainly won't be buying AoW.

Were I willing to actually play such a nation, in the unlikely event its not a depressing play experience, I might admit I was wrong on mechanics, but I'd still be offended. The chances of this happening aren't particularly high. If I play at all post-AoW, I'll likely avoid any use of colonization mechanics whatsoever.

Actually, player hands matter way more than AI hands. That aside, I see native countries outperforming real life in pretty much every game (usually by continuing to exist).

Only because the AI refuses to actually attack natives except Inca and Aztecs. (And I swear it only does it then because Spain gets a quest, and if it controls the curia, even briefly, it declares a crusade, and other nations get motivated by the crusade). If the AI actually declared on North American natives, they would quickly cease to exist.
 

Kyoumen

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Well, this particular change has actually killed all my enthusiasm for actually playing an American Native or an African kingdom.
I was going to do Sunset Invasion and/or African Power after the patch until I saw this, but I'd rather play something that will still be fun if I bother to play at all. And I don't think I can even do the switch to CN trick and still complete Sunset Invasion, although demonstrating that ridiculousness might be mildly entertaining... it won't lead me to conclude I was wrong.

So, what precisely would lead you to conclude you're wrong? I just said what would lead me to conclude I'm wrong.

If it is a priori impossible for you to ever think your current belief is mistaken, don't you think there's a problem there?

Honestly, this change might make me quit the game. My interests are clearly not as eurocentric as the designers, and the european games I have played have been sufficient that europe feels stale and boring. Also, this change offends me. It implies Native Americans aren't as capable as Europeans, even if they westernize. The Horde nerf + associated design philosophy similarly offends me. The developers might not be intentionally racist, but this is racism, and failure to understand that is not an excuse. I certainly won't be buying AoW.

Disagreeing with you is not being racist, or racism (conscious or otherwise). And it is very irritating that you suggest it is (not to mention wrong). My bonafides on this forum to be against Eurocentrism and racism are as well-established as they can possibly be. I have spent more posts on that topic than you have posts, period. I have no problems calling out Paradox for Eurocentrism or for disregarding the rest of the world. I am not doing so here because I paid attention to what Wiz said about it and was satisfied that it wasn't the case and thought was actually put into how this change would affect native states.

You don't have to agree, and that's fine as far as the mechanics themselves go. But do not presume that your interpretation of what this game mechanic "means" says that anyone supporting it is racist.

Only because the AI refuses to actually attack natives except Inca and Aztecs. (And I swear it only does it then because Spain gets a quest, and if it controls the curia, even briefly, it declares a crusade, and other nations get motivated by the crusade). If the AI actually declared on North American natives, they would quickly cease to exist.

Sure, if the AI acted totally differently, they'd exterminate native powers played by the AI, but that isn't what actually happens. Arguably it should happen more, but that wouldn't be very fun for people playing them and might lead to the tedious gameplay of EUIII where every European power with a coastline would declare on your continent-straddling Inca no matter how badly they were outmatched, which is certainly to be avoided. So I'm content enough with the situation as it stands in that respect.

And if you're playing a powerful native empire, you can get European allies yourself, as well.
 

Squirrelloid

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The US "won" "their" War of Independence because France and the Netherlands did most of the fighting and funded the American part of the war. Washington was incapable of even paying his men, or supplying them with ammunition, and until French aid in both areas solved them he was suffering from significant desertion problems (they also sent military advisors to train the American militias). Much of the US population at the time was ambivalent towards the revolution and a significant fraction were loyalist, and if the revolutionary army had been decisively defeated and the leaders hung, that would have been that. Britain couldn't have kept their US colonies forever (the power differential between them was lessening, a trend that would only continue and inevitably cause independence one way or another), but in 1776, it was anything but impossible for them to win.

Plus the whole thing was only one part of a larger war, that continued for years after Yorktown (and ended with Britain being forced to return colonies to a victorious France). That's all off-topic for this thread, though.

Err.. not quite. The US had to actually *win* a major battle (see Saratoga Campaign) to convince the French to declare war, although they did help with funding, supplies, and training before then. But Washington's refusal to engage kept the British stymied while giving the US time to train its soldiers. The British couldn't advance on Philadelphia and defend New York at the same time, they didn't have enough troops and would have to expose New York to Washington's army to do that. And that's just two cities! British forces committed were clearly inadequate for the task of pacifying 'the colonies'.

And while there were loyalists, few of them were willing to take up arms, and they weren't sufficient to solve the manpower problem. The rebels didn't need to occupy and pacify the country, they just needed to not get caught out where they had to give open battle without possibility of retreat.

As far as militarily, the British *failed* to hold Boston, and while they militarily defeated Washington in Manhattan, they couldn't block retreat, and his army successfully forced the British to keep its barracks near the city. (The brief occupation of Philadelphia was similarly withdrawn because the army's supply lines were too vulnerable, since they had again failed to eliminate Washington's army at the Brandywine). Even a more successful ability to control New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania would not have sufficed to win the war - they needed to pacify Massachusetts, and were incapable of doing so militarily, much less simultaneously with exerting control everywhere.

You are correct to note that France was key to winning the war. Yorktown wouldn't have been possible without the French navy (and less likely without the French army). Making strong alliances is important. Clearly the colonies alone weren't up to decisively defeating the British forces that were sent, much less had the entire might of the empire fallen on them. But its a vast gulf between that and Britain being able to compel terms or force a decisive victory over the Americans, who fought for most of two years without significant French military help.
 

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Wiz I appreciate that this was your decision and that you're willing to consider a mechanic to allow us to reduce it, perhaps in terms of dealing with native empires have it tied to westernization so that we'd actually HAVE an incentive to westernize or perhaps attaching it to a particular tech level or government form to show that the nation has achieved a certain level of bureaucracy and centralization that would eliminate the colony malus.
 

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And if you're playing a powerful native empire, you can get European allies yourself, as well.

If you're playing a powerful native empire, your provinces are still apparently being managed less effectively than those provinces owned by a subject of a nation overseas, even if your native empire is also westernized. For literally no historical reason and arguable gameplay reasons.
 

Squirrelloid

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So, what precisely would lead you to conclude you're wrong? I just said what would lead me to conclude I'm wrong.

If it is a priori impossible for you to ever think your current belief is mistaken, don't you think there's a problem there?

If TMIT were to be convinced that the LA floor was a good mechanic for all of Malaysia, the Americans, and African nations, I'd be inclined to think I was mistaken mechanically.

But for the sake of science, I'll commit to at least starting a Kongo game. My willingness to suffer aggravation in said game is going to be rather limited.

Disagreeing with you is not being racist, or racism (conscious or otherwise). And it is very irritating that you suggest it is (not to mention wrong). My bonafides on this forum to be against Eurocentrism and racism are as well-established as they can possibly be. I have spent more posts on that topic than you have posts, period. I have no problems calling out Paradox for Eurocentrism or for disregarding the rest of the world. I am not doing so here because I paid attention to what Wiz said about it and was satisfied that it wasn't the case and thought was actually put into how this change would affect native states.

How are mechanics which make Native Americans inferior at utilizing native lands than european colonists not racist?

Regardless, that's my feeling on the matter, and no gameplay is going to change that. I'm kind of shocked you don't think so. Surely there was a better way to balance this than giving european colonists magical powers to avoid game mechanics, just because colonial powers needed to see greater benefits to 'make colonization worthwhile' (Wiz's exact reasoning, paraphrased). Magical powers specifically to benefit european colonizers at the expense of native groups sets off alarm bells, especially when Wiz says he can't give similar "magical powers" to natives, because... reasons? (Yes, the "magical powers" phrase comes from Wiz, although he was only willing to use it for natives. The cynic in me concludes its because, clearly, only european colonists were capable of fully utilizing the land naturally, for other cultures to do it would require magic. Sarcasm detected is solely mine).

On a historical note, most colonizable areas without established populations *couldn't be productively colonized* (from the home country's government's perspective) for most of the game's time period. The initial British colonies *failed* as money-making ventures, and it was only near 100% autonomous local governance which made them viable at all. Spain and Portugal's successful central and south american colonies enslaved large native populations, plundered their riches, and compelled forced labor (the encomienda system) to make them profitable - slavery in the Caribbean and North America were attempts to create the same situations the Spanish benefited from in Mexico and Peru, and the Portugese in Brazil. The Spanish specifically avoided colonizing low density areas until after 1600, and even then the initial attempt to colonize Buenos Aires failed because there were no natives to enslave (the local tribe was migratory and simply moved away) and the colonists refused to work. (In the game, the encomienda system is sadly just an event which whitewashes all the horrors of the institution, and gives only a positive bonus and glowing endorsement, and magically disappears after the colony completes).

The real success of the Thirteen Colonies area came only because of religious unrest and the promise of religious freedom in the New World, not because it was profitable for Britain. That they ultimately became profitable sometime after 1700 is both really late in the game's time period and a feature of the colonies developing over time - something any culture should be able to replicate in any colony, not just CNs.
 
Last edited:

Kyoumen

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Err.. not quite. The US had to actually *win* a major battle (see Saratoga Campaign) to convince the French to declare war, although they did help with funding, supplies, and training before then. But Washington's refusal to engage kept the British stymied while giving the US time to train its soldiers. The British couldn't advance on Philadelphia and defend New York at the same time, they didn't have enough troops and would have to expose New York to Washington's army to do that. And that's just two cities! British forces committed were clearly inadequate for the task of pacifying 'the colonies'.

"Wars are not won by great victories, but by great mistakes."

It's true Washington did a lot of the right things and Britain did a lot of the wrong ones. But neither was destined to happen in 1776, and even as it was it was a close-run thing and could have gone differently at various points. If Washington screws up and his army gets trapped and annihilated, neither he nor it are going to be easy to replace. The British don't need to control the entire 13 colonies militarily to win, because the 13 colonies weren't all up in arms against them but rather included mostly people ducking their heads and with no real stake in either side. Destroy the actively revolting army and hang the leaders and the whole thing dies with a whimper, and that was in fact possible to do. Arguably not that likely once the French and Dutch got involved (without them, Washington can't pay his troops or provide them with sufficient ammunition, and that means he loses eventually no matter how evasive he is), but "not likely" and "impossible" are different things.

And while there were loyalists, few of them were willing to take up arms, and they weren't sufficient to solve the manpower problem. The rebels didn't need to occupy and pacify the country, they just needed to not get caught out where they had to give open battle without possibility of retreat.

Case in point - that is indeed what they needed to do, but it wasn't predestined that they would successfully do it.

But, again, this is all off-topic so I'll not continue responding on it in this thread, interesting a topic though it is.
 

Kyoumen

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If you're playing a powerful native empire, your provinces are still apparently being managed less effectively than those provinces owned by a subject of a nation overseas, even if your native empire is also westernized. For literally no historical reason and arguable gameplay reasons.

Actually, there's a very good historical reason if you're just talking about American natives: they kept dying in epidemics repeatedly.
 

Freudia

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Actually, there's a very good historical reason if you're just talking about American natives: they kept dying in epidemics repeatedly.

I do not think those epidemics were enough to justify making land next door to the capital unable to be administered to its full potential compared to a fresh colonial nation with something in the realm of 5,000 people.
 

Squirrelloid

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"Wars are not won by great victories, but by great mistakes."

It's true Washington did a lot of the right things and Britain did a lot of the wrong ones. But neither was destined to happen in 1776, and even as it was it was a close-run thing and could have gone differently at various points. If Washington screws up and his army gets trapped and annihilated, neither he nor it are going to be easy to replace. The British don't need to control the entire 13 colonies militarily to win, because the 13 colonies weren't all up in arms against them but rather included mostly people ducking their heads and with no real stake in either side. Destroy the actively revolting army and hang the leaders and the whole thing dies with a whimper, and that was in fact possible to do. Arguably not that likely once the French and Dutch got involved (without them, Washington can't pay his troops or provide them with sufficient ammunition, and that means he loses eventually no matter how evasive he is), but "not likely" and "impossible" are different things.



Case in point - that is indeed what they needed to do, but it wasn't predestined that they would successfully do it.

But, again, this is all off-topic so I'll not continue responding on it in this thread, interesting a topic though it is.


You're forgetting one major thing here. Pre-Napoleon (and the American Revolution was, if only just), battles happened basically only by consent of both generals. It was easier to withdraw than to compel an enemy to fight, and has been for most of military history. Only Napoleonic tactics changed that, and that was Napoleon's great invention (at least in actual implementation, if not in conception). So the likelihood of the American army getting trapped and annihilated was pretty small, so long as Washington made reasonably good decisions. (And there's every reason to believe he would - unlike most of his initial army, he actually had military experience, and I believe even command experience).
 

Kyoumen

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If TMIT were to be convinced that the LA floor was a good mechanic for all of Malaysia, the Americans, and African nations, I'd be inclined to think I was mistaken mechanically.

Heaven help us all if that's your baseline for all your decisions about mechanics. :)

But for the sake of science, I'll commit to at least starting a Kongo game. My willingness to suffer aggravation in said game is going to be rather limited.

Well, that's at least something. It doesn't count if the thing that aggravates you isn't related to provincial autonomy, though. :)

How are mechanics which make Native Americans inferior at utilizing native lands than european colonists not racist?

Because CNs are not a purely European mechanic, and Europeans are not in fact intrinsically superior at colonising the land (that is, after all, why Russia won't be getting below 50% autonomy in Siberia either).

Your Kongo could westernise and make a CN in South America and it will be just as efficient at using the land as any European one - and more efficient than a European coloniser without a CN. So how is that racist, exactly?

This is a nerf to same-continent-and-land-connection colonising. The fact that it mostly affects natives of the Americas, East Asia and Africa (with Russia as a very notable exception) does not mean it is purely for the benefit of Europeans (it will in fact harm Europeans in several situations, such as anyone trying to conquer land routes into Africa).

Regardless, that's my feeling on the matter, and no gameplay is going to change that. I'm kind of shocked you don't think so. Surely there was a better way to balance this than giving european colonists magical powers to avoid game mechanics, just because colonial powers needed to see greater benefits to 'make colonization worthwhile' (Wiz's exact reasoning, paraphrased). Magical powers specifically to benefit european colonizers at the expense of native groups sets off alarm bells, especially when Wiz says he can't give similar "magical powers" to natives, because... reasons? (Yes, the "magical powers" phrase comes from Wiz, although he was only willing to use it for natives. The cynic in me concludes its because, clearly, only european colonists were capable of fully utilizing the land naturally, for other cultures to do it would require magic. Sarcasm detected is solely mine).

Again, it is only CNs (which are not necessarily European) which avoid the floor on provincial autonomy. European colonisers in Africa have no such luck (and, in fact, are intrinsically worse at using the land than a native African coloniser, who doesn't need a land connection to get below 75% autonomy). And Wiz has also said he understands the need to have a mechanic for native colonisers to lower it at some point so that the first provinces you colonise aren't at 50% autonomy forever.

That is why I don't see it the way you do. That, and I play these states all the time and am very aware of how unrealistically powerful same-continent colonisation is.

On a historical note, most colonizable areas without established populations *couldn't be productively colonized* (from the home country's government's perspective) for most of the game's time period. The initial British colonies *failed* as money-making ventures, and it was only near 100% autonomous local governance which made them viable at all. Spain and Portugal's successful central and south american colonies enslaved large native populations, plundered their riches, and compelled forced labor (the encomienda system) to make them profitable - slavery in the Caribbean and North America were attempts to create the same situations the Spanish benefited from in Mexico and Peru, and the Portugese in Brazil. The Spanish specifically avoided colonizing low density areas until almost 1600, and the initial attempt to colonize Buenos Aires failed because there were no natives to enslave (the local tribe was migratory and simply moved away) and the colonists refused to work. (In the game, the encomienda system is sadly just an event which whitewashes all the horrors of the institution, and gives only a positive bonus and glowing endorsement, and magically disappears after the colony completes).

While all that's true, it's difficult to deal with in game for a number of reasons, not least of which because it's supposed to be fun to colonise and follow history.

I am not whitewashing the history of colonialism. I loathe colonialism and I've had many bitter arguments with proponents of it on these forums. But it's a game set in a time period where you can't ignore it, and making there be little incentive to colonise (except for gold areas and sugar islands, which were ludicrously profitable, far more than they are in game) makes the game less fun, which is ultimately important. I will also hasten to add that Paradox also avoids unfun or awful things like the mechanics of the transatlantic slave trade, makes it a suboptimal choice to slaughter all the natives in colonies, and doesn't significantly represent the devastation of native societies by Western epidemics. It cuts both ways, not just for Europeans and against the ROTW - ultimately the idea is to make a fun game first, and be historically accurate only to the extent that it benefits that.

Plus, of course, an accurate simulation of which colonialism did and didn't do to benefit the coloniser would require an economic system that is an order of magnitude more complex than the EU series uses. Even Victoria, a series much more focused on the economy, still had to give up and make African colonies ahistorically profitable (although in most cases the big benefit for colonising there is still prestige).
 
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Magnificent Genius

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The British could have won the American Revolution by blockading, capturing the colonies major ports or otherwise interdicting the colonies maritime trade and never had to fight a serious battle. The colonies at the time were so dependent on foreign trade that six months of that would have brought us begging to the peace table. The British General Staff just didn't have the wit to see it.
 

Kyoumen

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I do not think those epidemics were enough to justify making land next door to the capital unable to be administered to its full potential compared to a fresh colonial nation with something in the realm of 5,000 people.

By the most popular accepted estimates, 90% of the pre-Columbian population of the Americas died. Many societies that never even saw a European completely disintegrated.

Realistically speaking, any large native power should be ripped apart by unavoidable disease events, possibly before even bordering a European power - certainly after bordering one. It should be literally impossible to keep a powerful, coherent state.

But that isn't fun, so that doesn't happen. And that's a good thing. But if you did want an actual historical justification for why natives couldn't ever get as much use out of provinces as CNs, you could use that (natives of the Americas continued to periodically suffer from epidemics throughout EUIV's timeframe, disproportionately to the European settlers, and never regained the pre-Columbian population density).

Of course, that only applies to a subset of the rule, albeit the one that's most commonly being talked about here. Really, it's a change for gameplay purposes, because native colonisers (anywhere, not just the Americas) can so easily build a huge colonial empire before the Europeans (and CNs) can get there, and without completely overhauling how colonisation works or arbitrarily locking it off it's the easiest path to great power almost everywhere.