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sad king billy

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I've been playing EU2 for a while now, but I don't quite understand the point of trade posts -other than to pave the way for a colony. So the question is: why should I place trade posts, and when is it better to build a colony or a trade post?


Many thanks
 

Slavick3000

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It depends on your non-colonial base and your trade dominance. Trade posts are much cheaper than colonies, and get to max potential quicker (shorter colonization time, and only 6 successful attempts needed to max it out). However, their max potential income is a lot smaller than that of a full colonial city.
So if you are a small colonizer (Portugal or Netherlands), trade posts are good early on to get a solid income base. Then, once you have a nice cash flow, you can "graduate" to full colonies.
Trade posts also contribute significantly to the local colonial CoT, or your capital's CoT, so if you have a lot of merchants there you will gain additional bonuses from the TPs.
Also, traders often have a higher chance of success than colonists at first establishing a settlement. This is particularly noticeable in provinces with natives or hostile climates, so in those situations it pays off to establish a TP first and then colonize.
Finally, if you want to claim prime colonial areas before someone else can colonize there (North American East Coast for example), Trade Posts are ideal, as they don't add to the colonization penalty once they are at least size 3, and you can get them up pretty fast.

Problems with trading posts are that they simply don't provide the same level of income that a colonial city does once its fully colonized. Also, TPs can be burned down if occupied by foreign troops or natives.
 

Mats_SX

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sad king billy said:
I've been playing EU2 for a while now, but I don't quite understand the point of trade posts -other than to pave the way for a colony. So the question is: why should I place trade posts, and when is it better to build a colony or a trade post?


Many thanks
TPs have a few advantages:

- They are cheap.
- They can be established easier, despite natives (on aggressivenesses lower than high).
- They provide a high trade income to their selected CoT (usually yours, if you have one).
- They increase the chance of a subsequent colony attempt.
- Their 10 population might be enough to save you a colonist, in case the province got a large negative location modifier.

They are of course easily destroyed, and don't provide any (or very little) income, so unless you are a somewhat dedicated trader, you won't benefit much economically.

A main advantage is that it is cheaper to occupy a larger area with TPs, to stop other nations colonising that area. Once you have TPs up, and the area in your hands, you can start converting them to colonies.
But the main reason I use them is to get the bonus for the first colonist. In most provinces it's initially easier to establish a TP than a colony, and to buy a few extra percent, the TP is ideal.

If you are an early colonial nation (likely Portugal or Spain), you can gain immense amounts of money from TPs. If you manage to get a colonial CoT to spawn, preferably in the Caribbean or in Brazil, and you establish a large network of cheap TPs in the Sugar and Tobacco provinces that are aplenty all over the New World, the CoT value will sky-rocket. Then you can monopolize it (as nobody else knows about the CoT) and reap the 20/20 trade income. A pure killer; very low costs, little time (TPs only go to lvl6, instead of lvl10), and large amounts of monthly income.
 

sad king billy

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So what is a good ground rule? Make a few colonial cities and everthing else a trade post (purging the province of inhabitants if they're violent)?

If so, what are good provinces for each, respectively? Should the colonies be high-value goods, like sugar cane, gold, spice, ....? Or is there a better indicator?
 
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Mats_SX

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Nah, the ultimate goal is always to have only cities. TPs are good, but they are only temporary so. You colonise a province either because it has a valuable good, because it has a high base tax, or because it's strategical. In the first case, you might stick with a TP for a while, the second, only if there's a valuable good in the province also, and the third basically never.

Valuable goods are good for trade, but they also revenue a nice Production income, which only is available in a colony/city. So while it may be worthwhile to keep a couple of TPs, you will eventually want to make them cities.

EDIT: To make it clear, there's no use to make a TP in a Gold or low-value good province for trading purposes (obviously). The TP is good for some other reasons in such colonies (mentioned above), but it's always just as an "11th colonist". For Sugar/Tobacco/other high-value goods, TPs can be good short-term, especially if tax is low, but even so, they should be made cities sooner or later.
 

unmerged(94521)

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I'm not quite sure if it's true, but the advantage of trading posts is that they do not increase the supply for the good they are producing but still gives money directly to you and to the CoT.

Say, if you colonized all the Canadian fur provinces, the supply percent would increase by a large amount and thus make trading far worse. But if you on the the other hand established only trading posts in Canada, the actual production of fur would be smaller than with colonies but the value of the fur would be much higher, and in the end grant you more income. (And as said already, trading posts over colonies are MUCH cheaper, so that could also contribute to making this strategy more viable).
 

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To get much money from trade posts requires that you trade heavily in the CoT to which the trade post belongs. I believe you do get some other tiny income from trade posts which is at most 4 ducats a year for a level 6 trade post with high value goods.

In addition to what has been mentioned, trade posts contibute less to stability costs (base is 2) compared to colonies (base is 5) and cities (base depends on religion). Trade post populations do not dwindle as they might in Africa for example. Also, trade posts can help form land connections and trade posts give the same national waters benefit as do colonies and cities.

Mostly nations with lots of settlers that are unaffordable to be able to make all colonies will consider making lots of trade posts. Portugal is a prime example. Portugal can use a few settlers for colonies each year if they loot Castille/Spain and North Africa well; but with about 6 settlers per year may as well make some trade posts. With Portugal, you might like to make trade posts before colonizing except when you need that new port right away to keep exploring. The trade posts are great for exploration, for example make a trade post in Bermuda and Bahamas then a port in Havana for attrition-free transport between Tago to conquer the Aztecs. Put trade posts in Africa and only make a port at the tip of South Africa. Remember you can enter a sea-zone early in the month and escape before attrition sets in so you can have gaps in your national waters and still be attrition-free.

But if you get only one or two settlers per year, you probably only want to make colonies. Even an extra 5% chance of success is not going to help you get more colonies although it might save you money, but not much if any, and it may cost more. If your average colonization success rate was 50% and trade post success rate was a whopping 90% you would be sending 11 settlers for trade posts just to save one settler that would otherwise fail. So you would be losing half of the remaining 10 which is 5 settlers that would have succeeded as colonists. And 11 trade post attempts is going to cost more than the one failed colony attempt.
 

unmerged(4344)

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As others have said, for most game situations colonies are better. The problem with TPs is that they burn, and AIs always burn them if they capture them. So, if you've put up lots of TPs, and AIs can get at them, you can't really afford wars with them. This is a big handicap inasmuch as warfare is a very profitable way to grow.

But in places where AIs don't know about, or can't get at, I really like TPs. Good places for them are interior North America and Siberia. There are also some interior areas in South America, although fewer of them.

It is true that TPs don't produce as much income as cities do. So in the very long run, you'll want to convert TPs to cities. But they are faster to put up, by far. They only have to average level 3, for you to build another one without penalty, after you've build more than a handful of them at level 1. Whereas, colonies have to average "level 10" -- cities -- for you to be able to build another one without penalty. (Again, after a handful of non-penalized colonies.) So, you can grab 3x as much space if you only do TPs, all other things equal. And of course, building TPs is far cheaper than colonization. So you can afford it even if you're not yet a real superpower. Smaller countries won't even be able to spend all their colonists on TPs unless they use synchronized looting, which is not exactly an obvious thing for a newbie to do.

If you do have money to spend, then the tradeoffs between colonies and TPs are not as clear. For one, colonization chances tend to be higher than TP chances in most of the places you'll want to grab (i.e., sugar islands, any place with high base tax value). And you can use conquistadors to help establish colonies, and both conquistadors and explorers to expand them. Whereas there is no way to get a boost to TP chances, at least, no way early in the game. Later in the game, you get a whopping +50% chance with TPs, so long as you can keep your trading efficiency at 100+. But this is pretty much impossible before about trade 5, and even then you have to get some other bonuses (i.e. go Reformed, build a bunch of refineries, get a bunch of monopolies).

But that said, the return on investment for a TP can be the highest ROI in the game. If you have a CoT only you are trading in, and can plop down a TP on a high-value good, the return on investment can be over 100%.

To take an illustrative case, with 100 trading efficiency and not too many TPs, you get 95% chances almost everywhere. Assuming you've promoted enough officials so that worldwide demand for luxuries is 200%, then many luxuries will have their market price over 2x their base price. The highest value good is almost always fine china, because it's in the lowest supply. Its market price will be around 36d with maximum demand. A new level 1 TP will cost about 15d to establish, and it will produce 1d trade tax, and 18d in trade. So on success you get 127% returns; with 95% success rate this is still a total ROI of 120%. With higher trading efficiency, that rises linearly; I've had TE over 150 in some games.

Nothing else comes remotely close to that level of ROI in EU2. As a point of comparison, the second best investment is colonization of a few easy gold provinces, using a conquistador; I've seen costs as low as 25d to colonize one of the Siberian gold provinces, for an increase in 5d (per year) in gold production. That would be a ROI of 20%. You can also get 20%+ rates by building tax collectors in provinces with very high base tax value (13+).

There's another downside to colonization vs TPing, not yet mentioned. That is that most of your spending goes into tech, and each new city (up to a point) raises tech costs. Since TPs don't result in cities, they do not raise your tech costs, and thus they raise your income without raising costs. Consider a fairly typical 1600ish situation playing Portugal. World trade is at 8000d, and you've gotten 30% of that, with TE 100. So, your net trade income is 200/month. You have 20 cities, i.e. tech cost multiplier of 2.32. Your total province income from these cities and all colonies and TPs is 50/month. You can build new cities producing 3d/month each (about what you'd get from a sugar island). Any new city or a level 6 TP will raise your trade in Tago slightly (20d/year, but you only capture 6d from that). The level 6 TP would generate about 0.5d/month in trade taxes. Adding a level 6 TP thus increases your income by 1d/month, without affecting tech costs. The effective rate of tech investment is proportionate to your TCM divided by income; in this case it improves from 2.32/250, to 2.32/251. Adding a new city with 1000 pop increases both income and the TCM. So the new rate would be 2.345/253.5 . If you work out the arithmetic, you'll find the tech rate is increased faster with the TP than the colony. (And of course, it would really be fairer to compare 1.66 TPs vs one colony.) Thus, for hyperteching with relatively small countries, TPs may be superior to colonies.

One more good point was raised by Misconstruction, above. Unlike cities, TPs do not raise the supply of their good. This does not matter for most goods, because either they are in massive supply anyway and will never be high price, or else, the total number of provinces worldwide which make them is not that high. (I.e., there are only a total 30 provinces which make fine china, so supply of it can never exceed 80.) However there is one luxury good that is initially in low supply, but which has zillions of provinces which can eventually swamp the supply. That good is furs. (Initially there are just 27 cities producing furs, and a few colonies in Europe; but worldwide there are 102 provinces with furs, so that total supply can be maxxed out at 150.) This oversupply point is another reason why Siberia and North America are a good places for TPs.
 

unmerged(94521)

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Wreck said:
One more good point was raised by Misconstruction, above. Unlike cities, TPs do not raise the supply of their good. This does not matter for most goods, because either they are in massive supply anyway and will never be high price, or else, the total number of provinces worldwide which make them is not that high. (I.e., there are only a total 30 provinces which make fine china, so supply of it can never exceed 80.) However there is one luxury good that is initially in low supply, but which has zillions of provinces which can eventually swamp the supply. That good is furs. (Initially there are just 27 cities producing furs, and a few colonies in Europe; but worldwide there are 102 provinces with furs, so that total supply can be maxxed out at 150.) This oversupply point is another reason why Siberia and North America are a good places for TPs.

Another one is slaves. Even when their demand is maxed about by Spain when they start colonizing, they aren't worth much, unless supply is really low. So the only way to squeeze out any profit out of Africa besides gold and ivory, are TP in slave provinces. It's very easy and cheap to keep control of pretty much every slave province in Africa, and make sure that nobody produces 'real' slaves ie. from colonies, so the price for slaves will be high. It's by far the most profitable way to colonize Africa, colonies on invory and TP's on slaves.