"Colonial" provinces and colonial wars

[ptan54]

First, when I'm talking about colonies I'm talking about overseas colonies, not Siberia.

1) Will EU4 distinguish between a heartland province and a colonial province?

Real life example. 7 years war, Britain beats France, takes French Canada. The French admit they are beaten and give up New France to the British. In EU3 game terms, Britain racks up infamy per province taken from the French, which is silly and ahistorical. The cessation of French Canada to Britain didn't lead to Europe seeing the UK as "dishonorable scum" and instant DOWs all over the place. I know infamy is removed in EU4 - but there needs to be a way to track which provinces are seen as an "inalienable" part of the patrimony and which are "merely" colonies. If the Brits tried to take chunks of metropolitan France in 1763 that would've caused a lot of indignation and irredentism for the French. Not so for Quebec. Ceding Quebec for the French King was like losing a distant cousin; if he had to cede huge tracts of mainland France to the UK, that would be like losing an arm and a leg! Similarly, when the truce expires, France should not try to DOW the UK immediately to reclaim Quebec. Revanchism should only exist for "inalienable" provinces.

If you take a colony from another country, it should not rack up infamy (or the new mechanic that tracks infamy, I don't know what they will use to keep track of "badness") at the same rate as taking a "heartland" province. I remember an EU3 game as Italy where I totally crushed France in Europe and all I wanted was their colonies in Brazil, which I had occupied as well. I open the peace screen and shock & horror, it costs 30 infamy to take their 10 provinces in Brazil! They declared war on me so there was no "colonialism" casus belli, hence 3 infamy per province.

How to keep track of what's a "heartland" and what's a "colonial" province? "Core" won't work because you can spend monarch points to core your colonies in the New World. Perhaps the "overseas" mechanic would work? Or maybe population of the province. If the latter, pop growth rates need to be somewhat historical so you don't get metropolises across the New World by game end.

2) Please introduce the concept of colonial wars. Colonial wars should be fought only in "colonial" provinces and the AI should be more willing to hand them over if they've been occupied for e.g. 5 years and if their navy is smaller than yours. European powers did take colonies from each other and it did not involve TOTAL WAR landing half a million men armies on the beaches of Normandy just to get France to cede Quebec to you. If the EU4 AI is anything like EU3, you'll have to occupy much of European France to get them to give you all of Quebec. The UK took the Dutch Cape colony without having to occupy Amsterdam to bring them to the table. Somehow, this has to be do-able in EU4's diplomacy model without assaulting the Netherlands in Europe. A solution would involve the game keeping track of "inalienable" and "colonial" provinces.

3) What do people think of the "seize colony" function in EU3? It's fun when you did it to the AI but it always struck me as gamey and arbitrary, province with population of 999, send my cavalry there, "seize" colony, it's mine hurrah. Province with population of 1,000, oops, gotta sign a peace treaty with them and rack up infamy. If the colonial war mechanic was introduced, EU4 can get rid of the "seize" function outright. When the AI is willing to come to the peace table, then and only then should colonies be handed out, just like the Treaty of Paris in 1763.

4) In EU3, if England conquers a pagan nation like Zimbabwe or Maya and convert them to its religion, they become English. Because the population of these provinces exceed 10,000, if say France takes these provinces from England, those provinces never convert to French - the assimilate colony decision in unavailable.

Two possible solutions - one is to monitor these provinces as colonial provinces and allow for a cultural assimilation decision, or introduce a "colonizer" subculture, e.g. "English colonial" or "French colonial". This models the rise of a new colonial culture group, mestizos and so on. At some point, Spaniards in Mexico, Colombia and Argentina started becoming Mexican, Colombian and Argentinian. If England convert a large pagan province, that province should flip to "English colonial" culture. If France conquers it, there ought to be a decision (after say 10-20 years) to change it to "French colonial" culture.

 

[CaptRobau]

1. I'd make a distinction between settlements, colonies and provinces. Settlements would go up to a population of 1000 before they became colonies and they'd have events like native uprisings, storms, etc. They wouldn't be seizable, but they wouldn't have a fort so occupying would be easy. Colonies would be all settled provinces and the overseas provinces in the Americas, Africa and Asia. You wouldn't be able to core them, but you can claim them. Would make them a bit more pricey (but not core province pricey) at the negotiation table and you'd have a CB to take them back. Colonies that are connected to your capital could become core provinces after a while (à la Russia). These colonies would have interesting events like colonial revolts, religious freedoms or even native raids if next to an unsettled province. The normal provinces would act pretty much the same way they do now.

2. Yes

3. Mentioned in 1

4. Never had that. The colonial cultures thing is a bit hard to do (for every culture and colonial version?) and only became an issues at the very end of the timeframe. The other three things are much more important to make colonies more interesting.

 

[ptan54]

Regarding 4, I saw ai England take a province from mutapa. Convert to religion. Province becomes English culture.

I take it after a war. 100 years on its still an English cultured province.

 

[Schwungrad]

When you convert a pagan province to your religion, they also become your culture. Even inside Europe, where in 1399 the province of Samogitia is settled by Pagans of Lithuanian culture. If they are converted to Christianity by the TO, they become Prussians. After this, the usual mechanics for cultural assimilation apply.

 

[Hydro Globus]

Which are, for the uninitiated:

Province must be a core, have no revolt risk (technically, less then one), have state religion, but not state culture, have a neighbor province (with same owner) of state culture and religion OR be capital OR be a COT with at least 5 own merchants: There is a chance (mtth: 250 years) that the province flips culture.

mtth (mean time to happen) modifiers:

BONUSES:
-95% if Province culture is Saxon or Pommeranian, and Owner state culture is Prussian (that is, if this condition is present, assimilation is 20 times more likely each day)

-95% if Province culture is in a European culture group, is NOT in Europe, North Africa or Middle East/Central Asia, Owner is in Western, Eastern or Muslim tech group, Owner state culture is in a European culture group

-90% if Province is in Turkey region, culture is either Turkish or Byzantine, Owner state culture is either Turkish or Byzantine

-90% if Province culture is Khazak, Kirgiz, Siberian or Tartar, Owner state culture is East Slavic, West Slavic or Baltic

-50% if Province is in National Focus region

-20% if Province Owner has Church Attendance Duty

-20% if Province Owner has same culture group as Province

-20% if Province is Capital

-10% if Province Owner has Divine Supremacy

-10% if Province Owner has Serfdom/Free Subjects < -1 (that is, at least 2 points in favor of Serfdom)

-10% if Province Owner has stability ≥ 1

-10% if Province Owner has stability = 3 (cumulative with the previous one)

MALUSES:
+100% if Province is NOT Capital and city population ≥ 100000 (that is, large cities are half as likely to assimilate, cumulative with the later bonuses for city-size))

+100% if Province Owner has stability < 0

+100% if Province Owner has stability < -1 (cumulative)

+100% if Province Owner has Humanist Tolerance

+100% if Province Owner has Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité (or whatever is the right spelling)

+50% if Province is NOT Capital and city population ≥ 50000

+50% if Province Owner has Ecumenism

+10% if Province Owner has Serfdom/Free Subjects ≥ 2 (that is, at least 2 points in favor of Free Subjects)

+10% if Province is NOT Capital and city population ≥ 10000

+10% if Province is NOT Capital and city population ≥ 25000

 

[ptan54]

It's too easy to set up a huge city in the New World by annexing Tenochitlan and converting to your religion, voila we have city of our primary culture, with half a million people, right in the middle of Mexico!

If the pagan conversion mechanic won't be changed though, the solution would be for the game to flag a province as "colonial", and have the MTTH for the above event reduced drastically, like -90%.

In fact, why not just deem a province for a European power in the New World or Sub-saharan Africa a "Colonial province"? IIRC the only pagan areas (ignoring the Baltic pagans at game start) where the American tribes/ empires and the Subsaharan African tribes/ empires. South/ Southeast Asia is all Hindu/Sunni/Buddhist anyway.

 

[Don_Quigleone]

Perhaps, in addition, Countries shouldn't rack up "infamy" (or it's equivalent) by taking uncored provinces. So if Austria seized Northern Italy, the rest of the powers of Europe aren't going to think the worse of France if it takes it from them, though perhaps they might prefer if they liberated them...

 

[Hydro Globus]

Do note that Austria probably had some CB in the first place. Also, we are sidetracking the topic.

 

[Featauril]

2) Please introduce the concept of colonial wars. Colonial wars should be fought only in "colonial" provinces and the AI should be more willing to hand them over if they've been occupied for e.g. 5 years and if their navy is smaller than yours. European powers did take colonies from each other and it did not involve TOTAL WAR landing half a million men armies on the beaches of Normandy just to get France to cede Quebec to you. If the EU4 AI is anything like EU3, you'll have to occupy much of European France to get them to give you all of Quebec. The UK took the Dutch Cape colony without having to occupy Amsterdam to bring them to the table. Somehow, this has to be do-able in EU4's diplomacy model without assaulting the Netherlands in Europe. A solution would involve the game keeping track of "inalienable" and "colonial" provinces.

The British takeover of South Africa is hard to model in EU, since it was not taken by a war but rather because the mainland (Amsterdam) had been overrun by the French, and the colonies were no longer being maintained or defended.

Otherwise, there has been no exclusively colonial wars. Even the seven years war which started in the colonies (the shot that was heard across the world) quickly spread to Europe with France's allies duking it out with England's allies, and major battles occuring in Germany involving French and British troops.

 

[ptan54]

If no colonial war concept, then the AI needs to be more willing to hand over their colonies once you've occupied then for 5-10 years and they haven't a hope in hell of retaking them because you've blockaded their ports and destroyed their navy.

In EU3, in order to reenact the results of the 7 years war, Britain would have to occupy half of metropolitan France just to get Quebec. I suspect the AI would be just as stubborn in EU4, because it doesn't know how to distinguish between Montreal and Calais. It just knows both are fully fledged cities, both are French cores.

 

[Featauril]

If no colonial war concept, then the AI needs to be more willing to hand over their colonies once you've occupied then for 5-10 years and they haven't a hope in hell of retaking them because you've blockaded their ports and destroyed their navy.

In EU3, in order to reenact the results of the 7 years war, Britain would have to occupy half of metropolitan France just to get Quebec. I suspect the AI would be just as stubborn in EU4, because it doesn't know how to distinguish between Montreal and Calais. It just knows both are fully fledged cities, both are French cores.

I agree. Well, it helped that the colonies were all worth 1-2% points, but to get the AI to be willing to part with anything you had to own half their mainland.

But I think Vicky II and CK II shows that they've learned a bit in war resolutions.

 

[ptan54]

I agree. Well, it helped that the colonies were all worth 1-2% points, but to get the AI to be willing to part with anything you had to own half their mainland.

But I think Vicky II and CK II shows that they've learned a bit in war resolutions.

Also want to add that colonies should be worth 1-2%, AND also that they should rack up less infamy or "hatred" from the defeated nation, since infamy is now gone.

 

[Gnomi]

1. I'd make a distinction between settlements, colonies and provinces. Settlements would go up to a population of 1000 before they became colonies and they'd have events like native uprisings, storms, etc. They wouldn't be seizable, but they wouldn't have a fort so occupying would be easy. Colonies would be all settled provinces and the overseas provinces in the Americas, Africa and Asia. You wouldn't be able to core them, but you can claim them. Would make them a bit more pricey (but not core province pricey) at the negotiation table and you'd have a CB to take them back. Colonies that are connected to your capital could become core provinces after a while (à la Russia). These colonies would have interesting events like colonial revolts, religious freedoms or even native raids if next to an unsettled province. The normal provinces would act pretty much the same way they do now.

2. Yes

3. Mentioned in 1

4. Never had that. The colonial cultures thing is a bit hard to do (for every culture and colonial version?) and only became an issues at the very end of the timeframe. The other three things are much more important to make colonies more interesting.

I'd also like to see EU4 to distinguish between "heartland" provinces where they carry all the main institutions of the state, and "colonial" and "non-heartland" provinces with much reduced influence of the central state. For example, Spanish crown would have much less influence in Catalonia compared to in Castile. The current upgrade system doesn't really simulate this. Perhaps what we can have is the different degree of integration, with high integration being costly but potentially much more beneficial.