Colonial independence

[bobguyTDG]

Among other things something I notice in EU4 is that colonial subjects very rarely become independent, and if they do it is due to the parent nation losing a very large amount of their power base, and even then that may not be enough. It's also important to note that colonial nations often colonize past their borders gaining more development than they were perhaps intended to, yet they still often wont become independent. On top of all this though, is the flooring -33% liberty desire from subject development.

Firstly I think Colonial nations should be completely forbidden from the aforementioned colonizing outside their colonial region, it creates awful, unsolvable border gore and it could cause other colonies to become severely underdeveloped and never having any chance of fighting against their overlord, or even paying a good amount of tariffs and trade.

Secondly I think colonial subjects should gain a very large amount of liberty desire when the their overlord gets the reaction to the revolution modifier, and maybe even on top of that, the anti-revolution zeal modifier should cancel out (-33% liberty desire from subject development) if you are not currently at war with the target of the revolution. This is kind of like how as technology progresses in vic2, so does colonial consciousness drastically.

Another thing that would help the process of independence is perhaps (I think this one is far fetched but I'll be happy to hear opinions on it) weighing the size of your army differently depending on where they are, obviously an army in Europe takes transports, and time to move over to the new world to suppress revolutions, meaning it is no where near as large as a threat compared to immediate land armies, it would also give the player an actual reason to Garrison large colonies, something that isn't currently present.

The last thing I would want to suggest, is to not allow CN's to participate in the independence war of another CN, this seems ridiculous, but looking at game balance, if you own Eastern America and Mexico, it would severely slow down the progress of the a revolting CN, or just outright stop the revolution. Instead CN's should just give military access to their overlord, this is semi-realistic because hypothetically, it lets other CN's look over the situation, and if the other colony wins perhaps it can start a domino effect kind of like what happened in Spain's colonies.

I'd like to hear people's opinion on this, I think it is some well needed flavor as I rarely see an America that retains its independence for 20 years.

 

[Canute VII]

I think the reason, liberty desire in CNs is so easy to keep in check, is that (some) players would cry big crocodile tears, if their CNs actually declared independence. There's a reason EUIV's designers don't implement a simulation of the downfall of empires, after all. People would say: "wait, I've poured endless ressources into building my empire, into colonizing, and now pdx hits me with liberty desire? Thiss is no fun!"

So I think, we would need to actually gain something from winning an independence war against a CN. That way a player would have an incentive to actually allow a CN to gain liberty desire an declare independence. Of course, the CN may still win the war, but that would be a risk/reward calculation with the player being in control.

It could be a simpke thing like making it an "age objective" to win an independence war. This objective would be open for all: CNs, colonial overlords, other nations that support independence. Attaining the age objective would the give additional splendor... Long story short: a player may want to allow an independence war.

 

[Lightwell]

So I think, we would need to actually gain something from winning an independence war against a CN. That way a player would have an incentive to actually allow a CN to gain liberty desire an declare independence. Of course, the CN may still win the war, but that would be a risk/reward calculation with the player being in control.

We already get a benefit. Greatly-reduced LD for about 50 years. They need to increase the benefit states get from CNs and Tariffs so it'll be worth making CNs in the first place.

 

[JaxElite]

Honestly people tend to forget how late the aspiration for liberty came. Remember that the vast majority of colonial territories did not develop major independence desire until very late in the timeline. Spain lost their colonies only in the year the game ends (and since it ends on january 1st after the end of the game). Independent colonies are a sign of a struggling or breaking motherland or incompetent rulers. Loyal colonies were historically the norm and should be in game

 

[Lightwell]

Honestly people tend to forget how late the aspiration for liberty came. Remember that the vast majority of colonial territories did not develop major independence desire until very late in the timeline. Spain lost their colonies only in the year the game ends (and since it ends on january 1st after the end of the game). Independent colonies are a sign of a struggling or breaking motherland or incompetent rulers. Loyal colonies were historically the norm and should be in game

The game model involves more belligerent states who can, over the course of a few years, completely break another major power. However, even without that, the colonies are still a low-risk, low-reward oddity in the game.

 

[korawit13]

I think it is just the EU4 system. It is about the player's conquer ability vs. restriction. If you want realistic the monterlands had to have better equipments and weapons than the colonies. That is reason why any colonial independent movements get crushed.
I am laughing that people during care about liberty. Because the ordinary people had no say. The revolutionaries were from the above. The colonial nobility weren't about freedom until the American and France revolution occurred.
Plus after the independent revolution was done many of the free fighters declared themselves to be president for life.

If there were compromised with each others and both governors and the royal were happy. Why did the colonial governments rebellion? Want more taxes maybe, without representive to complain to maybe, or the governor want to new dictator maybe. Plus many colonies did not like each others some reason such as territory disputes or economic resources competition.

I think the devs should add more events to the colonial government.
The whole points the powerless lose either ways. Sadly

 

[JaxElite]

If you want realistic the monterlands had to have better equipments and weapons than the colonies

Actually no. The main reasons were that colonies had an incredibly small population compared to the motherlands and everyone keeps forgetting that every independence war is also a civil war (people tend to forget how many americans sided with the british because it doesn't fit their narrarive).

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

Honestly people tend to forget how late the aspiration for liberty came. Remember that the vast majority of colonial territories did not develop major independence desire until very late in the timeline. Spain lost their colonies only in the year the game ends (and since it ends on january 1st after the end of the game). Independent colonies are a sign of a struggling or breaking motherland or incompetent rulers. Loyal colonies were historically the norm and should be in game

List of colonies that revolted in the Americas and became independent within EU IV time frame:

- America
- Haiti
- Argentina (Used to include Bolivia and Uruguay, in 1831 Argentina collapsed and became the 2 states, Argentina and Bolivia, Uruguay was taken by Brazil)

List of colonies that revolted in the Americas within EU IV time frame but did not become independent until a couple years after:

- Mexico
- Colombia (Used to include Venezuela, Ecuador and Panama, in 1831 Colombia collapsed into the 3 states, Colombia, Venezuela and Ecuador)
- Chile
- Peru
- Santo Dominigo (Just a special case, they became Spanish Haiti before uniting with the French Haiti in 1821, would later become Dominican Republic in 1844)

List of colones that got independence a couple years outside of EU IV time frame:

- Central America
- Brazil
- Uruguay

This doesn't include cases such as West Florida, which tried to declare independence but were swept up quickly by someone else. So while true that colonies didn't break up until after EU IV's time frame, it's barely outside the time of the game and with not everything happening historical, why couldn't it happen earlier? What if Spain gets invaded and destroyed in 1790 instead? That would push the independence movements in the colonies earlier, meaning we should see them. Same goes for Great Britain, if they wear themselves down in a war and their 2 biggest rivals help fund the colony, then absolutely that colony should push for independence. I want colonies to want to be more independent, but I would prefer if it stuck to the Age of Revolutions, where more events pop up pushing liberty desire, the colonies will take the situation of overlord more seriously and notice if they go bankrupt or fully occupied or the like, I would also make it so for each colony that declares independence the more desire grows, while there was independence pushes before America, it wasn't really until after America that it really grew and had momentum, and I'm not even American, so don't claim bias.

 

[JaxElite]

List of colonies that revolted in the Americas and became independent within EU IV time frame:

- America
- Haiti
- Argentina (Used to include Bolivia and Uruguay, in 1831 Argentina collapsed and became the 2 states, Argentina and Bolivia, Uruguay was taken by Brazil)

List of colonies that revolted in the Americas within EU IV time frame but did not become independent until a couple years after:

- Mexico
- Colombia (Used to include Venezuela, Ecuador and Panama, in 1831 Colombia collapsed into the 3 states, Colombia, Venezuela and Ecuador)
- Chile
- Peru
- Santo Dominigo (Just a special case, they became Spanish Haiti before uniting with the French Haiti in 1821, would later become Dominican Republic in 1844)

List of colones that got independence a couple years outside of EU IV time frame:

- Central America
- Brazil
- Uruguay

This doesn't include cases such as West Florida, which tried to declare independence but were swept up quickly by someone else. So while true that colonies didn't break up until after EU IV's time frame, it's barely outside the time of the game and with not everything happening historical, why couldn't it happen earlier? What if Spain gets invaded and destroyed in 1790 instead? That would push the independence movements in the colonies earlier, meaning we should see them. Same goes for Great Britain, if they wear themselves down in a war and their 2 biggest rivals help fund the colony, then absolutely that colony should push for independence. I want colonies to want to be more independent, but I would prefer if it stuck to the Age of Revolutions, where more events pop up pushing liberty desire, the colonies will take the situation of overlord more seriously and notice if they go bankrupt or fully occupied or the like, I would also make it so for each colony that declares independence the more desire grows, while there was independence pushes before America, it wasn't really until after America that it really grew and had momentum, and I'm not even American, so don't claim bias.

I fully agree with you but the issue is something else. It is not that the colonies are modeled badly, the motherlands are. They don't decline. As i said multiple times, nations in EU4 are absurdely stable.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

I fully agree with you but the issue is something else. It is not that the colonies are modeled badly, the motherlands are. They don't decline. As i said multiple times, nations in EU4 are absurdely stable.

Oh they absolutely are, but even if the mother country is fully occupied, bankrupt, has no army and navy and -3 stability and high tariffs on their colonies, the colonies still don't seem to want to take that leap towards independence, I do think the problem mostly is the mother country, but colonies do need a tweak

 

[korawit13]

@JaxElite, thank you for expanding that I mean. I agree that colonies population were small initially compared to where they were from. However in latter, it might not be true anymore [I have search when that happens because I do not sure yet.]
In US War of independence, it is true that there was royalists and patriots who lived in 13 colonies and some were with a side with British Empire. But I refered to how much ill-equipped of colonies compared to their motherland in the general sense. Sorry for being unclear. That is why you may think that way. In the general sense not of specific countries such the Haiti war of independence, Mexico war of independence, and South America war of independence, and Brazil war of independence. It was difficult for the colonies to win the war of independence.

@Mr.Grizzly, thank you for explaining to @JaxElite about how complex the colonial history is. That is why we do not go into the detail because we will write 100 pages about the complexity of war of independence. That is why we choose talk about what we would like to talk about. We cannot cover all of topics accurately about war of independence in colonies in this one forum sadly.