Are you sure about this? It seems to me that this number is for area of today's India state, thus excludes Pakistan and Bangladesh-which shouldn't be excluded, as they were part of British Indian possesions.
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
The problem is: are all those collaborationists former PoW's, or some thousands may be volunteers secretly come from India? If they are all former PoW's we have about 50% of traitors among the Indian PoW's: a huge percentage!
I've to admit I've never reard of them, where did they fight?
Then i'm completly puzzled. I would rather think (though i'm not that knowledgeable about British India) that their population was quite accurately counted in XX century, yet McEvedy and Jones gives (for 1950) 430mln figure. I rather doubt that it increased by 26% in mere 11 years, so something is obviously wrong
Originally posted by Wido
The problem is: are all those collaborationists former PoW's, or some thousands may be volunteers secretly come from India? If they are all former PoW's we have about 50% of traitors among the Indian PoW's: a huge percentage!
I've to admit I've never reard of them, where did they fight?
As to how many were pows, and how many not im not sure without a quick scan, iirc its nearly all from pows though, the intresting thing is that we know how many were captured and sent to germany and then recruited, as well as those in the far east, both for and by the same Boise, yet each returns different % of those willing to join, further indices of other factors playing a part in their choice to serve.
Ugandans served outside Africa, seeing action in the occupation of Madagascar in opposition to the Vichy government in France and the reconquest of Burma from the Japanese. In addition, Ugandans helped defeat the Italians in Ethiopia (then Abyssinia) and worked as part of a military labor force in Egypt and the Middle East. They also garrisoned at Mauritius and Diego Suarez near Madagascar and then garrisoned Kenya.
Hanny
On an encyclopedia printed in 1953, I've found:Originally posted by DarthMaur
Then i'm completly puzzled. I would rather think (though i'm not that knowledgeable about British India) that their population was quite accurately counted in XX century, yet McEvedy and Jones gives (for 1950) 430mln figure. I rather doubt that it increased by 26% in mere 11 years, so something is obviously wrong
Indian Union: 342,114,000 (census of 1948)
Pakistan (with Bangladesh): estimation of about 82,000,000 (census of 1941: 70,102,505).
The population given by Hanny is like the one of the census of 1931 (338,170,632), and it is the population of the Inidian Empire (India+Pakistan+Bangladesh).
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+in0187)
INA had a mere 8k who saw action, some intresting tidbits here as well.
linky no worky.... try this to get to it
http://memory.loc.gov/frd/cs/intoc.html#in0187
then look at ww2.
Hanny
INA had a mere 8k who saw action, some intresting tidbits here as well.
linky no worky.... try this to get to it
http://memory.loc.gov/frd/cs/intoc.html#in0187
then look at ww2.
Hanny
Last edited:
Thank you. About war in East Africa, I've never read of Ugandans: in what front were they?
that would be july 40 to feb 41, they along with 1Sa, 24 Gold coast, and their 22 own east african divs join with force f (UK naval force), push into somaliland and then upto ethiopia, restoring h selassie to his throne, as part of the southern pincer, the northern part later( 41) of a force of 4 and 5 Indian and force gideon(more locals), who come down from Sudan through eritrea and ethiopia to clear out 420,000 itialians(with their own locals), under the Duke of aosta, main resistance was at the Kerran mountain range, but cunningham in the south was the one who commanded the ugandans.
hanny
Thanks for the info. The number of Italians is completely wrong: at the beginning of the war there were 285,000 soldiers in Italian East Africa: 200,000 colonial troops and 85,000 Italians.
I've just re-read the Strategy Gaming Preview again and it talks about having second line troops. So I'm wondering if troops raised in certain colonies will be hard coded to be of that nature. While other colonies like India and French NA will be allowed to raise normally. Any thoughts?
Maybe but also Home Guard, Volkstromm and Russian Conscripts, and some Garrison type of troops. I am only guessing though...
Well j kegans ( i used his isbn 0-723-0939-2)usually a good source in respect of numbers, its his i used as they were handy, online i found this:-http://www.comandosupremo.com/1940.html
"The Italian situation in Ethiopia(in 1940) was very similar. Italy had 370,000 troops available along with almost 400 aircraft."
The PRO will have the exact numbers taken pows at conclusion of campaign, its not available online unfourtunatly, though more is scanned in all the time, its those numbers i have a feeling that he used for that particular element for the book.
Hanny
My sources are Guido Gigli (author of the articles of military history of the Enciclopedia Italiana in the 1950's-1960's, he is unknown outside Italy as 99% of our historians) in his "La Seconda Guerra Mondiale" tells: about 300,000 men; Indro Montanelli in his "Storia d'Italia - L'Italia della disfatta" tells: 70,000 Italians and 182,000 Africans in East Africa (total 252,000) and my 3rd source is http://www.lasecondaguerramondiale.it/africa_orie_1.html and here the number is 200,000 Africans and 85,000 Italians (total 285,000).
Official histories
Ministero della Difesa. Italian Official History: La Guerra in Africa Orientale, Giugno 1940 - Novembre 1941. Rome: Ufficio Storico, 1952
It has an english translation and if i have time ill look it over.
Hinsley, F. H. et al. History of the Second World War: British Intelligence in the Second World War: Its Influence on Strategy and Operations, volume one. London: HMSO, 1979
Italian East Africa- Somalia, Eritrea and Ethiopia, Sudan , Kenya 256,000 Italian nationals powed, total Native---182,000 powed, that does not take into acount any deaths, combat or otherwise.
The difference is probobly due to me citing what was taken at the conclusion of the campaigns, and your figures stating what was there initialy.
I will be near the PRO office in a couple of weeks time, if this topic is of some importance to you let me know and ill see if i can find the exact microflim archives for you.
Hanny
Ministero della Difesa. Italian Official History: La Guerra in Africa Orientale, Giugno 1940 - Novembre 1941. Rome: Ufficio Storico, 1952
It has an english translation and if i have time ill look it over.
Hinsley, F. H. et al. History of the Second World War: British Intelligence in the Second World War: Its Influence on Strategy and Operations, volume one. London: HMSO, 1979
Italian East Africa- Somalia, Eritrea and Ethiopia, Sudan , Kenya 256,000 Italian nationals powed, total Native---182,000 powed, that does not take into acount any deaths, combat or otherwise.
The difference is probobly due to me citing what was taken at the conclusion of the campaigns, and your figures stating what was there initialy.
I will be near the PRO office in a couple of weeks time, if this topic is of some importance to you let me know and ill see if i can find the exact microflim archives for you.
Hanny
The number of Italians is really very high: after the DoW only a few (I think only some hundreds) Italians went to AOI (Africa Orientale Italiana) by airplane, so that huge number (256,000) must be also with Italian civilians.
I'm not extremely interested, you are very kind, but I don't want you to spend your time for me, thanks!
Originally posted by Wido
The number of Italians is really very high: after the DoW only a few (I think only some hundreds) Italians went to AOI (Africa Orientale Italiana) by airplane, so that huge number (256,000) must be also with Italian civilians.
I'm not extremely interested, you are very kind, but I don't want you to spend your time for me, thanks!
Ah yes, italy sent considerable colonists did they not, its poss they were also included in the totals,(although that may not be the answer, because large numbers of italians were taken at a number of countrys outside somalia) while strictly not being members of the armed forces, iirc they were there against the leauge of nations orders.
heres something that may intrest you instead then, acount of the east african campaign, from an Indian div.
http://www.ku.edu/~hisite/AFS/library/Ball/fireTC.html#TC
hanny
Colonial manpower
Interesting discussion.
I would like to see something like EU rules,
that is bigger recruiting power in "home " areas
and maybe historical ones in colonies.
In conquered areas there might be very few possibilities to raise troops, for example germany
should have great troubles getting more than small
amounts of troops from their conquered areas.
The colonies might get troops based on a smaller %
of the population than home areas ( this would still make India important due to large population).
As for rascism and such, well there was great rascism in the U.S against the afroamericans,
but they did not fight badly.....
Interesting discussion.
I would like to see something like EU rules,
that is bigger recruiting power in "home " areas
and maybe historical ones in colonies.
In conquered areas there might be very few possibilities to raise troops, for example germany
should have great troubles getting more than small
amounts of troops from their conquered areas.
The colonies might get troops based on a smaller %
of the population than home areas ( this would still make India important due to large population).
As for rascism and such, well there was great rascism in the U.S against the afroamericans,
but they did not fight badly.....
Yeah I'd agree with you frenchie I think what you've outlined there is perfectly acceptable.