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Pwyll

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Originally posted by Ming


Mussolini is generally not known for his strategic logic, but what if The Axis powers include Spain and the Mediterannean is closed to the Allies? What if the Axis have overrun Egypt, the Canal and the Middle East and have all the Oil they want? What if Britain is occupied and the government fights on from the Colonies?

All I'm saying is that if the Allied player wants to raise a strong force of Colonials he should not be stopped by the game engine. Whether it's appropriate or not is decided by the player, not the designer.

The development of a strong colonial force should not be prevented by the game engine I agree and as the war moves from certain areas into other theatres sure...it may be needed to have some strong colonial presence given the shifting front of the war...mostly though I am looking at available manpower in said places and the production capabilities thereof. Some colonies would never have a hope in hell of producing an armour regiment there...lots of troops sure maybe even some cavalry...but armour never...this would have to be built in the mother country and shipped and if, as you have said the mother country has fallen...well they are going to have to buy from somewhere else or invest heavily into manufacturing in hopes that they can build up a sufficient supply of their own equipment to equip a division...realistically though gamewise I feel this will all be a little to exacting for the game engine...we never know though. I think were tackling different points
 

Ming

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Originally posted by Pwyll


The development of a strong colonial force should not be prevented by the game engine I agree and as the war moves from certain areas into other theatres sure...it may be needed to have some strong colonial presence given the shifting front of the war...mostly though I am looking at available manpower in said places and the production capabilities thereof. Some colonies would never have a hope in hell of producing an armour regiment there...lots of troops sure maybe even some cavalry...but armour never...this would have to be built in the mother country and shipped and if, as you have said the mother country has fallen...well they are going to have to buy from somewhere else or invest heavily into manufacturing in hopes that they can build up a sufficient supply of their own equipment to equip a division...realistically though gamewise I feel this will all be a little to exacting for the game engine...we never know though. I think were tackling different points

I think you're right. My position is only that if the player feels it is necessary he should be allowed to use his resources as he sees fit, rather than being artificiallly constrained by the game for 'historical correctness.' IE, if the player has some armor and motorized transport lying around (Either lend lease or surplus whatever) he should be able to equip whatever formation he wants with the units rather than being restricted to 'European' forces.

As far as industrialisation, the 10 year time frame should allow for some development. Certainly, there won't be any revolutions or 'great leaps forward' in Tanzania, but you should at least be able to place some light industry in Dar Es Salaam. Hmmm, I wonder how much control of economic development the game will let you have?
 

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Originally posted by Ming

I think you're right. My position is only that if the player feels it is necessary he should be allowed to use his resources as he sees fit, rather than being artificiallly constrained by the game for 'historical correctness.' IE, if the player has some armor and motorized transport lying around (Either lend lease or surplus whatever) he should be able to equip whatever formation he wants with the units rather than being restricted to 'European' forces.
Mmmm I'd tend to agree with you but I'd feel that there should be a cost to pay if you do these non-historical things. I mean the British colonies (I am talking about colonies not nations like Aust, Canada and NZ) had massive manpower, but very little to motivate these people to fight. I'd hate to see a game were the Brits put 50 Africa divisions into France in 1940 without paying a price for it some where. I don't mean resources when I talk about price I'm talking about unrest at home, or in the nations were these troops are raised I just don't think that there was a willingness among these colonies to fight in Europe esp the British ones.
 
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How were British colonial troops enlisted in WW2? :confused: I mean: Italian colonial troops were all volunteers, and British? If in HoI you can have only volunteers from your colonies, their manpower will be really low, because there were only a few men that wanted to fight for money and/or for a country that they didn't even know, as was historically at least for Italian colonies.
 

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Originally posted by Kiith

Mmmm I'd tend to agree with you but I'd feel that there should be a cost to pay if you do these non-historical things. I mean the British colonies (I am talking about colonies not nations like Aust, Canada and NZ) had massive manpower, but very little to motivate these people to fight. I'd hate to see a game were the Brits put 50 Africa divisions into France in 1940 without paying a price for it some where. I don't mean resources when I talk about price I'm talking about unrest at home, or in the nations were these troops are raised I just don't think that there was a willingness among these colonies to fight in Europe esp the British ones.

Indeed, earlier in the thread we were considering these issues. The reasons you mentioned are exactly why the historical government would be dead against raising large forces.

I'm not entirely sure, but I believe there were indeed some conscripts especially in East African campaign and among non combat support troops.
 
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And as for the «motivation» of those colonial forces go, let's not forget that most Indians saw with joy Germanys' victories against the allies in 1940, and that there were many sabotage attempts on the british war effort within India as the japanese troops approached the border...

And has anyone actually thought that Hitler was actually a huge beacon of hope for the millions of africans that languished under the British yoke?

An example: have you ever thought just why the current leader of the movement of the War Veterans in Zimbabwe has «Hitler» as his 2nd name?

[he was born during WW2... and THAT is a good example of what the black africans thought about the war... not to mention the boers, who hated the english]

Point is, there was a reason WHY that «vast» manpower of the allies was left untapped for the duration of the war... if Britain ever trained and supplied with modern equipment large amounts of colonial troops, instead of the careful selection of men she did during the war, she would most certainly be giving the Axis free troops and would have a hell of a time regaining control of her colonies from those very same troops.

Regards,
Keoland
 

Ming

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Originally posted by Keoland
And as for the «motivation» of those colonial forces go, let's not forget that most Indians saw with joy Germanys' victories against the allies in 1940, and that there were many sabotage attempts on the british war effort within India as the japanese troops approached the border...

And has anyone actually thought that Hitler was actually a huge beacon of hope for the millions of africans that languished under the British yoke?

An example: have you ever thought just why the current leader of the movement of the War Veterans in Zimbabwe has «Hitler» as his 2nd name?

[he was born during WW2... and THAT is a good example of what the black africans thought about the war... not to mention the boers, who hated the english]

Point is, there was a reason WHY that «vast» manpower of the allies was left untapped for the duration of the war... if Britain ever trained and supplied with modern equipment large amounts of colonial troops, instead of the careful selection of men she did during the war, she would most certainly be giving the Axis free troops and would have a hell of a time regaining control of her colonies from those very same troops.

Regards,
Keoland

Right, however the issue at stake here is not really whether or not arming colonials was a good idea, it's whether this should be decided by the game designers or the player.
 

Pwyll

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Originally posted by Wido
How were British colonial troops enlisted in WW2? :confused: I mean: Italian colonial troops were all volunteers, and British? If in HoI you can have only volunteers from your colonies, their manpower will be really low, because there were only a few men that wanted to fight for money and/or for a country that they didn't even know, as was historically at least for Italian colonies.

I may have read somewhere...( or dreamt it :D ) that in India they had a million volunteers. Lets face it...its a great way to escape the economic depression of the native populace isnt it.
 

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Originally posted by Keoland

Point is, there was a reason WHY that «vast» manpower of the allies was left untapped for the duration of the war... if Britain ever trained and supplied with modern equipment large amounts of colonial troops, instead of the careful selection of men she did during the war, she would most certainly be giving the Axis free troops and would have a hell of a time regaining control of her colonies from those very same troops.

Regards,
Keoland

Its a shame the facts dont support this view, perhaps your just unaware of the level of Indian mobolization?, you are aware that about 1 in 8 of all the UKs troops being Indian, and thats just those used outside of India, or that the Burma campaign was conducted with 70% Indian manpower.

As for Africa, its a shame the facts dont support this nview either, as in 41 the Uk cleared east Africa (Eritrea/somalia/ abysinia)with over 50% of its manpower localy raised, 2000 Somalia, 9000 Kenyan 3000 nigerian, while the free french raised 30,000 in west africa to support the less than 3,00o frenchmen.

Hanny
 

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Indian army in ww2.

3,698,000 trained, equiped and served the Uk.

b Ellis, Sharp end of war, pp376,appendix listing commenwealth mobilisaztion numbers.

Hanny
 

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Just to add here, the Indian army was not conscripted and remains the largest volunteer army ever raised. They also gained over 4000 citations for gallantry and of the the 182 Victoria Crosses awarded during World War II 30 went to soldiers of the Indian Army.
 

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4mln volunteers? Well, since population of india was well over 400mln at the time... you got the point:D


Yes, it means British India alone could supply more manpower than whole Europe.
 
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Well, given the numbers quoted, it seems rather obvious that the mobilization of colonials was inferior to 1% of their total populations... that's even below what one would expect from a force drawn from volunteers alone - and it does seem to confirm my statements, not disprove them.

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Yes, it means British India alone could supply more manpower than whole Europe.

Could if every avaliable male was drafted - as the number inferior to 4 000 000 clearly shows, the vast majority of Indians were totally alienated from the British war effort and had no interest in fighting for them - they would most likely defect at first chance.

In comparison, Britain alone had a mobilization level superior to 10% and had more than 4,5 million troops under arms at the time of maximum mobilization effort (2 900 000 in the Army, 800 000 in the Royal Navy and 1 000 000 in the RAF - and these are British numbers alone. Percentage-wise, Canada also mobilized 10% of her numbers).

Regards,
Keoland
 

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Colonial nations tended to have a more agriculture based economy. This reduces the number of men availble for mobilisation. Russia in World War I was actually had smaller mobilisable pool of manpower than Germany. As a Second point was that these were volunteers. Canada and Britain mobilised a far gretaer percentage of their population using conscription.
 

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Originally posted by Keoland
Well, given the numbers quoted, it seems rather obvious that the mobilization of colonials was inferior to 1% of their total populations... that's even below what one would expect from a force drawn from volunteers alone - and it does seem to confirm my statements, not disprove them.



Could if every avaliable male was drafted - as the number inferior to 4 000 000 clearly shows, the vast majority of Indians were totally alienated from the British war effort and had no interest in fighting for them - they would most likely defect at first chance.

In comparison, Britain alone had a mobilization level superior to 10% and had more than 4,5 million troops under arms at the time of maximum mobilization effort (2 900 000 in the Army, 800 000 in the Royal Navy and 1 000 000 in the RAF - and these are British numbers alone. Percentage-wise, Canada also mobilized 10% of her numbers).

Regards,
Keoland

Firstly tot pop for india in 39 wa 339 mil, again from ellis, from which the army(ie excluding air and naval mobolisation) was 3.7mil, this comes to 1.09% for india, the Uk reached 8% of its pop, Canada 6.1%, buts thats besides the point, in gross numbers India and the Uk fielded similar ration returns,(UK army=3,788,00) how this supports
==============================================Point is, there was a reason WHY that «vast» manpower of the allies was left untapped for the duration of the war... if Britain ever trained and supplied with modern equipment large amounts of colonial troops, instead of the careful selection of men she did during the war, she would most certainly be giving the Axis free troops and would have a hell of a time regaining control of her colonies from those very same troops.
==============================================

is rather difficult to fathom.

Your racial slur on indians is noted, fourtunatly the facts do not not support them, as any review of combat medal awards will show, cowards dont win the Victoria cross, like the 20 out of 27 going to indians in Burma.

Are you not aware that only 91,243 Indian troops were taken pow?, compared to 203,192 Uk, does that mean that englishmen were twice as alienated and likly to defect, i dont think so.

http://www.vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/3/4/Borra407-439.html

This gives some 50,000 who took up arms under Boise to fight, hardly the great mutiny now is it.

You are aware , are you not that the indian navy, that grew from 6 sloops, to 12 minsweepers, 2 frigates, and a corvete + the original sloops, mutined in 46 when it was told to demobolise?. Oh yes they were just alienated al to hell.


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/1940s/Training.html

At the outbreak of the War, the IAF had a strength of 16 Officers and 144 Ranks. Only one Squadron was operational and all training was undertaken by units in the UK. But the outbreak of the war put a strain on UK's training requirements and also to cater to the Indian training needs, the IAF established new units and set up more combat units.

By the end of the war, the number of personnel trained or under training, by the end of 1944 was in excess of 22000 Officers and men.

If you continue to post inacurate figures its clear why your conclusions are such crap ones.

hanny
 
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Originally posted by King
Colonial nations tended to have a more agriculture based economy. This reduces the number of men availble for mobilisation. Russia in World War I was actually had smaller mobilisable pool of manpower than Germany. As a Second point was that these were volunteers. Canada and Britain mobilised a far gretaer percentage of their population using conscription.

Also to be taken acount of is the caste system, further to that is the level of education, Indias was generaly rather low, that puts a limit on the numbers of technical specialists that can be trained, which then puts limits on higher level organisation.

That last point goes a long way in explaining NZ huge % of inducted manpower as recieving wounds, practicly the entire lot went int field combat units, no LoC or support structure at all, let alone an independent command structure, unlike canada insisted upon after the mismangement during 43 and early 44.

Hanny
 
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Originally posted by Hannibal Barca
Firstly tot pop for india in 39 wa 339 mil, again from ellis, from which the army(ie excluding air and naval mobolisation) was 3.7mil, this comes to 1.09% for India

That is the census of 1931, an estimate made in 1938 was of a population of 362,000,000; the percentage of soldiers is 1.02%.
About the way of enlistement, I've found in a book of 1939 that many Indian princes had to provide soldiers to UK and enlistement was obligatory in some principalities.
Are you not aware that only 91,243 Indian troops were taken pow?
It can be explained by the fact that most of Indian troops were not used in front line, so it was more difficult to take them PoW's.
The low number of PoW's is important for another reason: the percentage of PoW's that collaborated with the Tripartite was really high. Here is an article about the Indians in Italian and German armies: Indian Volunteers. Instead I've no data for Indians in Japanese army.
 

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Wido

The last post has a link to Boise, it uses 50,000 for INA serving with Japanese forces.

In 39 the Indian and Uk army in India wasw 189,000 strong, and you cannot find any other country that gave more men to aid the mother country in ww2.

The germans use 3,500 as the figure for indians serving germany, hardly a meaningfull statistic.

http://www.wssob.com/000legind.html

hanny
 
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Originally posted by Wido

It can be explained by the fact that most of Indian troops were not used in front line, so it was more difficult to take them PoW's.
The low number of PoW's is important for another reason: the percentage of PoW's that collaborated with the Tripartite was really high

LoC troops only appear in the far east, certainly not during n africa, 8th army couldnt have done without its 3 Indian divs, nor again at cassino. Far east is a different story, and as you say, a high % join the INA, for whatever reason, it can be argued that the promise of better ration was the reason 45-50k joined, when they knew their was arms for only 30k, but food for all. given the mortality rates in the camps its not an unreasonable argument.

Edit, it appears that the indian Corps surrender at Singapore was the largest mass surrender, and acounts for the greatest number of pow for India.
Hanny
 
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pre emtivly, 45-50k sounds like a lot of men however Ugandas 77,000 raised from scratch in 39 saw more combat service than did boises INA, and id bet you never even heard of there contribution.

Hanny