Collectivist vs. Individualist actually Hierarchical vs. Egalitarian

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Comrade_Meow

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So here's a proposed solution: Separate collectivist and individualist into it's two component axis:

Hierarchical vs. Egalitarian (government power and ideological axis)
Hierarchical unlocks autocracies, Extremist locks all the democracies.
Egalitarian unlocks democracies, extremist locks all autocracies.
Hierarchical gets bonus spy defense, increased slavery tolerance. Egalitarian gets bonus happiness, reduced slavery tolerance.

Collectivist vs. Individualist (economic and ideological axis)
Collectivist unlocks despotic hegemony (always - cannot be re-locked).
Individualist unlocks plutocratic oligarchy (always - cannot be re-locked).
Individualist gets increased ethics tolerance, bonus energy credits. Collectivist gets reduced ethics shift, bonus minerals.

What do you guys think?
Wrt 5 axes meaning points get spread more thinly, maybe give 4 points and make fanatic cost 3? Or maybe make it limit 1 fanatical?
Btw all the ethics axes are ( ... and ideological ):p
Yep. Egalitarian collectivist democracy is what I want. ;)
 
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Slave bonus for collectivists is just crude. It's the same line of thought as labelling Russia Ukraine on the risk board. (Although it is wildly entertaining nonetheless). Just noting I hate communism too but think OP's statement is more lucid.
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Why collectivism locks democracy:
  • Collectivism need stable leadership that can control the large mass, the mass of people are not supposed to control the collective, just follow.
  • Collectivism need a central government/collective that set up the goals for the people to work towards.
  • Collectivism is about the need of the goverment is more important then the need of the people, if the people could choose the goverment it would no longer be collectivism because the people would naturally choose the leadership that help them the most.
Why individualism locks monarchies:
  • A single individual is always biased at one direction which is not in the interest of everyone.
  • The people have no control over who becomes monarch.
  • Monarchies succession is based mainly on birth, not on competence and success unlike oligarchies.
  • Individual society take little to no account for other factors then the competence of the individual, if you was born in a poor family you can still reach the top.
  • Thus to be a leader in a individualistic society you must prove yourself worthy, thus monarchies who base their succession on birth and rulership is for life can not be found in an individualistic society.
  • A leader that performs poorly in an individualistic society can be replaced, everything is based on your current merits.
  • Induvidualism frowns upon things such as caste system because these things don't allow the individuals to develop as their destiny is already made for them.
  • However things such as wealth may effect how well your offsprings will do because of access to schools and so on.
 
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Zavaleta

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As I believe the digressing discussion of this thread very well demonstrates, the current "collectivist vs. individualist" ethos matrix is locked in the imagination of the 20th Cold War on Earth between pudgy and tasty humans. What do aliens, and the Blorgs, care at all about Cold War ideologies?

In a Sci-Fi space game I want more possibilities opened for imagining extraterrestrial and futuristic utopias and dystopias, not restricted to political correctness.

Under the current model all collectivist democracies are prohibited. All individualist autocracies are prohibited. If I want to enslave my fellow species I must be collectivist. If such a model is not even representative of the diversity of human societies how can it express our imagination for alien societies?
 
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Why collectivism locks democracy:
  • Collectivism need stable leadership that can control the large mass, the mass of people are not supposed to control the collective, just follow.
  • Collectivism need a central government/collective that set up the goals for the people to work towards.
  • Collectivism is about the need of the goverment is more important then the need of the people, if the people could choose the goverment it would no longer be collectivism because the people would naturally choose the leadership that help them the most.
Why individualism locks monarchies:
  • A single individual is allways biased at one direction which is not in the interest of everyone.
  • The people have no control over who becomes monarch.
  • Monarchies succession is based mainly on birth, not on competence and success unlike oligarchies.
  • Individual society take little to no account for other factors then the competence of the individual, if you was born in a poor family you can still reach the top.
  • Thus to be a leader in a individualistic society you must prove yourself worthy, thus monarchies who base their succession on birth and rulership is for life can not be found in an individualistic society.
  • A leader that performs poorly in an individualistic society can be replaced, everything is based on your current merits.
  • Induvidualism frowns upon things such as caste system because these things don't allow the individuals to develop as their destiny is already made for them.

Surely an indirect democracy, similar to Parliament, would serve the needs of stable leadership, and central government?

Surely an anarchic despotism where the strongest rules and anyone can become despot simply by overthrowing the previous ruler in a violent military coup is individualistic enough?
 
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Why collectivism locks democracy:
...
Why individualism locks monarchies:
...
I'd understand if no one at PDS would want to touch this topic with a ten parsec pole at this point, but I would find an explanation of these things from them to be really interesting. It is not hard to imagine a sort of benevolent monarchy that holds the individual liberties of her subjects above all else, or conversely a direct democracy that imposes a collectivist "tyranny of the majority," or any number of other configurations where individualism would not directly equate to democratic institutions. Since these don't seem possible in-game, I wonder if there are gameplay or balancing or logistical reasons why these are not included at launch. My guess is that PDS has a good reason, since they designed this from the ground up and we're all just reacting to half-information about a game we've never played.
 
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An ideal solution would be to only lock government types for fanatics on either end of the scale. Thus a fanatic individualist only loses access to autocracies, and a fanatic collectivist loses access to democracies.

As for slavery, I'd argue it doesn't fit the collectivism/individualism ethos, but with so little information on it and we don't know how it effects an empire that uses it I'd argue for replacing the slavery tolerance with a maintenance cost modifier for collectivism.
 
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Egalitarianism vs Individualism
Slavery seems to be the only basis written to call for the name change, most likely because of the slavery penalty/bonus from either ethos. But if you've been following, the topic of slavery becomes less emphasized when it comes to affecting the empire's policy-making options via collectivism vs individualism.

Egalitarianism has very blurry line (yet very simply put, it is 'equality'), so it is often hard to tell which egalitarian idea you are emphasizing about when you say "egalitarian". Egalitarianism also has impure meaning, if the OP wishes to put it as universally as he did. One can identify some aspects of collectivism in egalitarianism. Its ideas, mainly economic, is very close cousin to (or is) socialist ideals. And it's quite clear that socialism has many ideas sprung from collectivist stance. Most importantly, egalitarianism does not contribute to government forms, but influences the structure of the government - how it is or will be made up, its constitutions, power distribution among leaders and subjects..etc. This is mainly because egalitarianism is form of many principles and doctrines that make up the view of equality; whereas individualism is purely a moral stance. This gives egalitarianism a hard time when trying to distinguish which government type it belongs to. This also means that the view of egalitarianism can also change in the hands of different societies or culture groups. But in our world, it is embedded within the "western democratic societies" and has become the norm/gold standard when it comes to political and social egalitarian thinking. Notable example of western egalitarian thought would be how most democratic countries are set up; checks and balances for US government; and how everyone is able to elect their own leaders.

A democratic state says to its citizens:
"A man is able to vote for a leader in a democratic country (individualism), therefore all of its citizens have the RIGHT to vote (egalitarianism)."

Egalitarianism by itself has no basis to eliminate slavery or have democratic government forms. Individualism however, is invalid in autocratic countries in terms of politics, while egalitarianism can be valid (even meager but equal rights is considered egalitarian).

If we are talking about class, there would be upper class, middle class, and lower class. Slave class would be separate entity because slavery, throughout history, is permanent with very few special exceptions. It is something that no one wants to be and strips away individual rights. Individualists would certainly steer away from it, but egalitarianism has nothing to do with steering away from slavery. The only reason egalitarian thought can be applied to abolish slavery is the fact that not everyone can have equal rights as slaves, but is otherwise ALLOWED if the state deems that all its citizens be slaves, because the highest possible standard would be the slave class. In this case, the egalitarian thought would have no influence from individualism's "realization of self-worth" whatsoever.

"All are equal (to a set point)" vs "individual's worth" are very different things. No matter which philosophy you look at it from, no humans in an individualist society would naturally want to become a slave. Therefore, if you apply the principles of egalitarianism that derive from individualist thought, you are obliged to eliminate the slave class from the society. Notable society where egalitarianism is heavily conflicted with individualism would be the United States and many western countries. And I say conflicted because:
"I'm a worthy human being. I shouldn't be a slave, because I don't want to be" is a individualist's thought, whereas "I shouldn't be a slave, because everyone else are not" is egalitarian (in a world where western standard of equality is what most desire, which means no slaves). If you put them together, egalitarianism is bound to be surpassed by individualism. This is why meaning of equality is ever changing in countries like the US, to make it compatible to individualism. People would want to decide for themselves how worthy they are, rather than be acknowledged as an equal. This means individualism naturally eliminates slave class, whereas egalitarianism relies on individualist idea it's basing the "equal standard" on, in order to eliminate slave class. Individualism can also be associated with capitalism or free market economy, which is why there are multiple classes of people rather than one, even if the government policies are based upon egalitarian thinking (US).

Individualism does contribute to government forms, in this case: Indirect, direct, and moral democracy. Individualism does not contribute to make-up of the government, unlike egalitarianism. However, it can affect the hierarchical structure and how one takes power, WITHIN the structure of the government. It makes sense for a individualist society would favor democracies, because every individuals would have their own wants.

In an individualist society, slaves won't exist - not simply because the society wouldn't allow it, but also because the society is awake in self-realization in a sense. And the society values individuals. Therefore, they wouldn't tolerate slavery in the first place. With egalitarianism, an individual can be considered a mere cog in a machine by the state, and given same rights as the other cogs, especially if the state deems such rights to be the best possible rights for all.

The answer is clear that, individualism is more plausible for democracies and eliminating slavery. Egalitarianism is very weak in this regard. It has history with "human rights and equality", but the basis for the "equality" and the standard of "rights" is continuously being changed by major political and social groups in the world. And it is being changed heavily based on individualist ideas. So to conclude, egalitarianism can be seen as a pursuit (in human world) for individualists. If a gay community grows into a larger voice, and wants same marriage rights as the traditional family (individualist wants), the state will give them such rights (egalitarian) or won't. If the feminist activists want whatever rights they want these days, the state will give them the rights or won't.
 
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I agree with the idea of fanatic individualists locking out autocracies and fanatical collectivists locking out democracies but not moderates doing so.

Using the example of collectivists:
My reasoning:
-I figure a fanatical collectivist society is something embodied more by something inhumanly (or nearly inhumanly) collectivist like a full on hive-mind or the specific species of ants which are more like parts of a body than individual ants. In this kind of society democracy would probably be very limited to non-existent since the concept of individual choice wouldn't matter/not exist.

Moderate collectivist I disagree with locking out democracy, since I am assuming moderate collectivist can be anywhere within the group of collectivist values that we see in real life. While authoritarian and totalitarian states can be collectivist (e.g: Soviet Union, North Korea), collectivists can also be found to have openly democratic societies as well (Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc).
 
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Egalitarianism vs Individualism
Slavery seems to be the only basis written to call for the name change, most likely because of the slavery penalty/bonus from either ethos. But if you've been following, the topic of slavery becomes less emphasized when it comes to affecting the empire's policy-making options via collectivism vs individualism.

Egalitarianism has very blurry line (yet very simply put, it is 'equality'), so it is often hard to tell which egalitarian idea you are emphasizing about when you say "egalitarian". Egalitarianism also has impure meaning, if the OP wishes to put it as universally as he did. One can identify some aspects of collectivism in egalitarianism. Its ideas, mainly economic, is very close cousin to (or is) socialist ideals. And it's quite clear that socialism has many ideas sprung from collectivist stance. Most importantly, egalitarianism does not contribute to government forms, but influences the structure of the government - how it is or will be made up, its constitutions, power distribution among leaders and subjects..etc. This is mainly because egalitarianism is form of many principles and doctrines that make up the view of equality; whereas individualism is purely a moral stance. This gives egalitarianism a hard time when trying to distinguish which government type it belongs to. This also means that the view of egalitarianism can also change in the hands of different societies or culture groups. But in our world, it is embedded within the "western democratic societies" and has become the norm/gold standard when it comes to political and social egalitarian thinking. Notable example of western egalitarian thought would be how most democratic countries are set up; checks and balances for US government; and how everyone is able to elect their own leaders.

A democratic state says to its citizens:
"A man is able to vote for a leader in a democratic country (individualism), therefore all of its citizens have the RIGHT to vote (egalitarianism)."

Egalitarianism by itself has no basis to eliminate slavery or have democratic government forms. Individualism however, is invalid in autocratic countries in terms of politics, while egalitarianism can be valid (even meager but equal rights is considered egalitarian).

If we are talking about class, there would be upper class, middle class, and lower class. Slave class would be separate entity because slavery, throughout history, is permanent with very few special exceptions. It is something that no one wants to be and strips away individual rights. Individualists would certainly steer away from it, but egalitarianism has nothing to do with steering away from slavery. The only reason egalitarian thought can be applied to abolish slavery is the fact that not everyone can have equal rights as slaves, but is otherwise ALLOWED if the state deems that all its citizens be slaves, because the highest possible standard would be the slave class. In this case, the egalitarian thought would have no influence from individualism's "realization of self-worth" whatsoever.

"All are equal (to a set point)" vs "individual's worth" are very different things. No matter which philosophy you look at it from, no humans in an individualist society would naturally want to become a slave. Therefore, if you apply the principles of egalitarianism that derive from individualist thought, you are obliged to eliminate the slave class from the society. Notable society where egalitarianism is heavily conflicted with individualism would be the United States and many western countries. And I say conflicted because:
"I'm a worthy human being. I shouldn't be a slave, because I don't want to be" is a individualist's thought, whereas "I shouldn't be a slave, because everyone else are not" is egalitarian (in a world where western standard of equality is what most desire, which means no slaves). If you put them together, egalitarianism is bound to be surpassed by individualism. This is why meaning of equality is ever changing in countries like the US, to make it compatible to individualism. People would want to decide for themselves how worthy they are, rather than be acknowledged as an equal. This means individualism naturally eliminates slave class, whereas egalitarianism relies on individualist idea it's basing the "equal standard" on, in order to eliminate slave class. Individualism can also be associated with capitalism or free market economy, which is why there are multiple classes of people rather than one, even if the government policies are based upon egalitarian thinking (US).

Individualism does contribute to government forms, in this case: Indirect, direct, and moral democracy. Individualism does not contribute to make-up of the government, unlike egalitarianism. However, it can affect the hierarchical structure and how one takes power, WITHIN the structure of the government. It makes sense for a individualist society would favor democracies, because every individuals would have their own wants.

In an individualist society, slaves won't exist - not simply because the society wouldn't allow it, but also because the society is awake in self-realization in a sense. And the society values individuals. Therefore, they wouldn't tolerate slavery in the first place. With egalitarianism, an individual can be considered a mere cog in a machine by the state, and given same rights as the other cogs, especially if the state deems such rights to be the best possible rights for all.

The answer is clear that, individualism is more plausible to be able to unlock democracies and eliminate slavery. Egalitarianism is very weak in this regard. It has history with "human rights and equality", but the basis for the "equality" and the standard of "rights" is continuously being changed by major political and social groups in the world.

You are splitting a lot of hairs here in terms of your definition of egalitarianism that I don't think are worth going into. I assigned the labels "hierarchical vs egalitarian" not simply because of the slavery question but because it works well as a parallel to "collectivism vs individualism". You can imagine an egalitarian collectivist society as easily as an individualist hierarchical society, or vice versa. That's all.
 
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You are splitting a lot of hairs here in terms of your definition of egalitarianism that I don't think are worth going into. I assigned the labels "hierarchical vs egalitarian" not simply because of the slavery question but because it works well as a parallel to "collectivism vs individualism". You can imagine an egalitarian collectivist society as easily as an individualist hierarchical society, or vice versa. That's all.
How so? What's your basis that the current labels are wrong, other than the slavery point (the only point) you made? I mean, you also gotta consider the gameplay. It's hard to imagine a hierarchical society to be able to migrate POPs manually, or a egalitarian society to lock all autocratic forms of governments. If you read what I posted, egalitarians have no foundation to prohibit slavery outright. Egalitarianism has more or less evolved from the foundations of individualism in western democratic societies.

I see hierarchy as more for the caste system or a meritocracy/technocracy, rather than collectivism. I get that you just want to change the labels, but the way the game plays out is contrary to how they are displayed.
 
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I think this thread is a bit to much about modern day earth politics then it should be about sci fi goverments such as Human Hive which have likely been the inspiration of the ethos and goverments of stellaris.
 
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Whataboutism isn't a falicy when comparing viewpoints. Only in the absolute sense of saying "stop doing this".
Or to clarify, if both groups use slavery, one group shouldn't get penalties to slavery and the other a bonus. But if one group says to the other "stop using slaves, it's wrong", they don't stop being right just because they're hypocrites.

The problem I have is that they view one ideally and the other cynically. I wouldn't mind if they did either ideal or cynical to both, but being ideal in only one case comes off poorly.
And if it is brought up when the groups are doing it that's one thing but if it's brought up as a excuse to elt people do the same thign later it's a very diffrent thing.
Like when russia ivnaded crimea and every putin lover on the continent said "but what about the US and iraq" well yeah the us' actions in oraq weere stupid as hell to and many including myself protested their actions there but they do not justify other acts of military interventionism that way.
So if you have a time machine feel free to go back and call the brittish out on their treatment of india during the world wars but to bring it up later in another other context than "we dropped the ball in allowing them to do that" is just false.


Yes I do realize that. And in so doing the US explicitly enacted war powers that allowed the state to coerce the individual for the collective. At least back then they believed the 'war powers' were a temporary measure. My point being, coercion of the individual is required for a Collective mindset.

Do you think the US has become less individualistic and more collectivist? A very large portion of the population disapproves of Congress and believes it no longer it represents them. Also a very large portion of the population believes they are losing their individual freedom and rights. However simulating this in a game is difficult. It would be absolutely awesome if the game could, as I think it would provide great teaching moments; but I know it can't.
I don't think human nature allows for true individualism as for if the US has become more colelctivist, maybee a bit but not ever close to any other developed country.


The stellaris choice of individual society is one which protect the individual from other individuals as well as the goverment.

The collectivism is basically hive mind, seems very much inspired by the Hive of alpha centaury.

Collectvism is not Soviet union or communist.
Individualism is not western society.
No Ehtoses are political ideas, inherent traits like being a hive midn is traits.

Really? Or would individuals acting in their own self-interest realize they don't want to become a slave and thereby create laws and a society where slavery is outlawed? Even be willing to have a Civil War for such a law?
Then your individualism had resulted in collectivism.
I belive that both ethoses taken to their extreem allows for slavery mind you.


As far as I can tell they seem to have combined left/right economics with state power vs personal/individual power. This could be done better I feel?
The obvious way is to split them in two though.
Yes but it's kind of hard playing an empire that is fundamentally lacking in any kind of collective.

Really now, we have an OT forum for these kind of discussions. People who Will talk your ear of about the definition of liberalism and what have you.
No this discussion is still as it relates to the in game ehtoses.

From the wiki:
"Through history, too often has the hulking mass of the collective stifled the radiant genius of individuals. No more. Forge your own path, and let new fruits be illuminated by the sparks of clashing ambitions."
-The description for fanatic individualist....

I dunno know about you... but that sounds like a man that's more than ready to enslave others to further his own position.
Sounds like an Andrew Ryan (Bioshock) quote. I think he very well shows the dangers of individualism too far gone while Sophia Lamb (Bioshock 2) is collectivism taken too far. THose games are great at showing that even if they start at fundamentally diffrent standpints their resulting societies are very similiar.


Here is the description of fanatical collectivism:
  • The purpose of the individual is simple: strengthen the collective. To enter the blackness of space we move as one, and we shall not be weakened by wanton separatism.
It don't say anything it is about the good for everyone, just about making the collective/goverment strong. It is not hard to think that collective pops would be easy to enslave if it would help the goverment, even if it is terrible for the pop.
Yeah but it does not say anythign about who would dicide the direction of such a collective. Even the borg (before the intruduction of the borg queen) and the geth were sort of democratic, building consensus between all "individuals" before making their decision.

So here's a proposed solution: Separate collectivist and individualist into it's two component axis:

Hierarchical vs. Egalitarian (government power and ideological axis)
Hierarchical unlocks autocracies, Extremist locks all the democracies.
Egalitarian unlocks democracies, extremist locks all autocracies.
Hierarchical gets bonus spy defense, increased slavery tolerance. Egalitarian gets bonus happiness, reduced slavery tolerance.

Collectivist vs. Individualist (economic and ideological axis)
Collectivist unlocks despotic hegemony (always - cannot be re-locked).
Individualist unlocks plutocratic oligarchy (always - cannot be re-locked).
Individualist gets increased ethics tolerance, bonus energy credits. Collectivist gets reduced ethics shift, bonus minerals.

What do you guys think?
Wrt 5 axes meaning points get spread more thinly, maybe give 4 points and make fanatic cost 3? Or maybe make it limit 1 fanatical?
Btw all the ethics axes are ( ... and ideological ):p
Well I don't like the word egelitarian because I'm not sure authoritarian and egalitarian are opposites.

As I believe the digressing discussion of this thread very well demonstrates, the current "collectivist vs. individualist" ethos matrix is locked in the imagination of the 20th Cold War on Earth between pudgy and tasty humans. What do aliens, and the Blorgs, care at all about Cold War ideologies?

In a Sci-Fi space game I want more possibilities opened for imagining extraterrestrial and futuristic utopias and dystopias, not restricted to political correctness.

Under the current model all collectivist democracies are prohibited. All individualist autocracies are prohibited. If I want to enslave my fellow species I must be collectivist. If such a model is not even representative of the diversity of human societies how can it express our imagination for alien societies?
No I think paradox very much made it into reflecting the cold war by combining autoritarianism and collectivism.

I'd understand if no one at PDS would want to touch this topic with a ten parsec pole at this point, but I would find an explanation of these things from them to be really interesting. It is not hard to imagine a sort of benevolent monarchy that holds the individual liberties of her subjects above all else, or conversely a direct democracy that imposes a collectivist "tyranny of the majority," or any number of other configurations where individualism would not directly equate to democratic institutions. Since these don't seem possible in-game, I wonder if there are gameplay or balancing or logistical reasons why these are not included at launch. My guess is that PDS has a good reason, since they designed this from the ground up and we're all just reacting to half-information about a game we've never played.
That's why they shouldn't make such decisions and instead try to de-link as much of the basic ideas as possible to let us build our own ideologies from these ethoses.

An ideal solution would be to only lock government types for fanatics on either end of the scale. Thus a fanatic individualist only loses access to autocracies, and a fanatic collectivist loses access to democracies.

As for slavery, I'd argue it doesn't fit the collectivism/individualism ethos, but with so little information on it and we don't know how it effects an empire that uses it I'd argue for replacing the slavery tolerance with a maintenance cost modifier for collectivism.
Yeah this is easy solution. That said plutocratic oligarchy should not be locked by fanatical individualism.

I agree with the idea of fanatic individualists locking out autocracies and fanatical collectivists locking out democracies but not moderates doing so.

Using the example of collectivists:
My reasoning:
-I figure a fanatical collectivist society is something embodied more by something inhumanly (or nearly inhumanly) collectivist like a full on hive-mind or the specific species of ants which are more like parts of a body than individual ants. In this kind of society democracy would probably be very limited to non-existent since the concept of individual choice wouldn't matter/not exist.

Moderate collectivist I disagree with locking out democracy, since I am assuming moderate collectivist can be anywhere within the group of collectivist values that we see in real life. While authoritarian and totalitarian states can be collectivist (e.g: Soviet Union, North Korea), collectivists can also be found to have openly democratic societies as well (Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, etc).
Yup with the exception of fanatical individualism and plutocratic oligarchy as mentioned above.
 
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Really? Or would individuals acting in their own self-interest realize they don't want to become a slave and thereby create laws and a society where slavery is outlawed?
Yes
Even be willing to have a Civil War for such a law?
I guess there is another thing in work, because no white became slave in USA before war. Speaking in game terms, South considered themselves having alien slavery and North thought these people are not aliens and actually part of society. Both individualistic, South xenophobic and North not.
 
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And if it is brought up when the groups are doing it that's one thing but if it's brought up as a excuse to elt people do the same thign later it's a very diffrent thing.
Like when russia ivnaded crimea and every putin lover on the continent said "but what about the US and iraq" well yeah the us' actions in oraq weere stupid as hell to and many including myself protested their actions there but they do not justify other acts of military interventionism that way.
So if you have a time machine feel free to go back and call the brittish out on their treatment of india during the world wars but to bring it up later in another other context than "we dropped the ball in allowing them to do that" is just false.

I think you misunderstand. My point is that their ideology didn't stop them from doing this, in the same way the ideology of Stalin didn't stop them from doing the same thing, so neither side should receive penalties or bonuses which encourage or discourage the mechanics. If we switched it into two separate axes as I suggested here
...
Hierarchical vs. Egalitarian (government power and ideological axis)
Hierarchical unlocks autocracies, Extremist locks all the democracies.
Egalitarian unlocks democracies, extremist locks all autocracies.
Hierarchical gets bonus spy defense, increased slavery tolerance. Egalitarian gets bonus happiness, reduced slavery tolerance.

Collectivist vs. Individualist (economic and ideological axis)
Collectivist unlocks despotic hegemony (always - cannot be re-locked).
Individualist unlocks plutocratic oligarchy (always - cannot be re-locked).
Individualist gets increased ethics tolerance, bonus energy credits. Collectivist gets reduced ethics shift, bonus minerals.
...
Then one group might be Hierarchical and collectivist while the other might be Hierarchical and individualist, and both would get bonuses to slavery, for example.
 
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How so? What's your basis that the current labels are wrong, other than the slavery point (the only point) you made? I mean, you also gotta consider the gameplay.

To start with there exists a huge literature from San Simon to Ursula Le Guin imagining egalitarian collectivist societies on earth and in the stars. Why should Stellaris and PDS prohibit those futures when they have already given us such a huge sandbox to play with?

How would you label 19th century US society? With its frontier individualism, enslavement of blacks, and genocide of Indians? It certainly was not collectivist. It was individualist. But also extremely hierarchical to the point of extrajudicial murder.

The current ethos matrix does not allow for the breath of futurist nor historical imagining that I think Stellaris players deserve for such an ambitious game.

It's hard to imagine a hierarchical society to be able to migrate POPs manually

King Blurg tells the people of Planet 4X to relocate to Quell. Done.

or a egalitarian society to lock all autocratic forms of governments.

The citizens of Athens consider themselves equals in the polis and abhor tyranny. It is the classic example defining egalitarianism.

If you read what I posted, egalitarians have no foundation to prohibit slavery outright. Egalitarianism has more or less evolved from the foundations of individualism in western democratic societies.

Other than arguing against forms of hierarchy such as race and gender. Within the "Western" tradition egalitarianism has been the bases for arguing against slavery.

Outside that tradition other forms of egalitarianism have existed that do not fit within the Western tradition of individualism. In the Andes there exists a long tradition of community (collectivist) based egalitarianism- community based democracy.


I understand that you don't fully agree with me but it is not clear to me what you are arguing for in terms of how the Stellaris ethos matrix should/could play out.
 
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I think you misunderstand. My point is that their ideology didn't stop them from doing this, in the same way the ideology of Stalin didn't stop them from doing the same thing, so neither side should receive penalties or bonuses which encourage or discourage the mechanics. If we switched it into two separate axes as I suggested here

Then one group might be Hierarchical and collectivist while the other might be Hierarchical and individualist, and both would get bonuses to slavery, for example.
Yes perhaps I did. I belive that both extremes should get bonuses to slavery, both capitalists and commies have went down that path in the past. Of course no one is forcing you to use it.
 
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It is not hard to imagine a sort of benevolent monarchy that holds the individual liberties of her subjects above all else, or conversely a direct democracy that imposes a collectivist "tyranny of the majority,"

I consider it more fun to imagine Stellaris having governments as broad as possible. Monarchy in Stellaris is not 20th or even 19th century British monarchy. Monarchy there is a true rule of one - like God-kings of antient myths. Monarch can freely do ANYTHING without any restrictions.
And democracy means true democracy, where everyone has power to influence state politics and none have much more power then others.

Most likely we do not have pure monarchy and pure democracy nowadays in most countries. Maybe North Korea could be considered monarchy, althought there is a chance that power there is held by more people then 1 fat young man we know. And about democracies, I'd say USA is a mix of Plutocratic Oligarchy/Theocratic oligarchy with mass media buisiness groups being the elite controlling information (thus theocratic) and lots of money (plutocratic).
 
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John Forseti

Northumbrian Nationalist
112 Badges
Jan 13, 2008
1.550
1.698
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • For the Motherland
I think the suggestion for a Hierarchical/Egalitarian ethos is a great one, whether instead of or in addition to Collectivism/Individualism, I think the current slavery tolerance modifiers would map perfectly onto that scale and the government locks/unlocks would make perfect sense.
 
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