Collectivist vs. Individualist actually Hierarchical vs. Egalitarian

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Ramidel

Colonel
81 Badges
Aug 12, 2007
1.075
673
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
Not to mention that if you're thinking of unionizing remember your boss can just hire some guys to "talk it over with you".

Ideally no; a perfect Objectivist state would put the brakes on the use of violence against one's workers (unless they were occupying factories or something). Your boss' method of recourse would be to fire you and hire someone else who isn't the type to get any stupid ideas.
 
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:

TheDungen

Field Marshal
80 Badges
Jan 31, 2015
12.131
7.922
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Ideally no; a perfect Objectivist state would put the brakes on the use of violence against one's workers (unless they were occupying factories or something). Your boss' method of recourse would be to fire you and hire someone else who isn't the type to get any stupid ideas.
You clearly don't get how unions work, the idea is that you gather everyone who know how to do what you do so that they cannot hire someone else (or atleast not many enough not to lose money).
And who would stop them from using violence? Their own morals again a state without any laws wouldn't have anythign capable of interefering with such a practice. Aside from you gather up even more guys so that you are to many to get beaten up. But giess what at that point you've basically formed a state.
 
  • 6
  • 4
Reactions:

BrokenSky

Field Marshal
88 Badges
May 1, 2015
4.393
5.727
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
Maybe make hierarchical versus egalitarian an "independent" slider (social structure or something), whose point can't be shared with the other matrix?

It is a good point that the current four rows/three points model is mathematically elegant.

Yeah that would be pretty good actually, especially considering trying to have to mess with the UI shown in Blorg and friends - the whole semi-circle thing...
The other option of course is 6 - 4, but I can't think of another axis to add of the top of my head...

One could argue we live in universe of a perfect dictatorship with omniscient and benevolent God at the top :mad:

one could argue many things. :p

Edit: Angry face?
 
Last edited:

DemonScientist

Corporal
46 Badges
Feb 5, 2012
41
197
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines
Reflecting on this further, the trouble with using "collectivist vs. individualist" is that some people think of it as "altruistic vs selfish" whereas others think about it as "authoritarian vs peaceful," and the extent to which people have an emotional attachment to their particular formulation is the extent to which these discussions get very fun :)

For the record, I favour the second of those two convenient shorthands, and will, after a few play-throughs with the vanilla game as a suitably Hoppean monarchy, be modding in some sort of Glorious Anarcho-Capitalist Utopia form of government complete with a Supreme Anarch as the ruler.

That is, of course, for the games where I am not busy purifying.
 

eon47

Colonel
107 Badges
Jan 24, 2013
1.064
637
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV
I've only read the first and last few pages of this thread, so apologies if this was already mentioned, but hierarchical/egalitarian would go a long way toward encompassing the antebellum American South. The region wasn't really xenophobic per say, or at least no more than anywhere else in the world, and it definitely wasn't collectivist--the South was all about states' rights, after all--but they were very much for inequality and hierarchy. Even beyond the distinction between slaves and plantation owners, you had a massive wealth gap between the many poor white sharecroppers and the elites who ruled society. I guess collectivism makes some sense if you count Soviet gulags as slavery, but then you run back into the problem of the South--fanatically individualistic and not really xenophobic, but all about the slavery.
 
  • 4
  • 2
Reactions:

Andrzej2

Colonel
47 Badges
Jul 2, 2010
877
2.589
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Majesty 2
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
I think that collectivism vs individualism is quite well represented in the game. Looking at history of Europe: first there were traditional monarchies with feudal system, guilds and many regulations. State was more like family with king as the father of the nation, people were more united and collective. Then there was democratic revolutions that destroyed those close bonds, made people resposible only for themselves and in ideological sphere made single human more important than community (human rights, liberalism, laissez faire). And there was reaction against liberalism - socialism that had many in common with traditionalist views when it comes to economical system and resposibilities of people towards community (main differences are egalitarnian ideology and hatred for religion). In practice socialism was more radical neofeudalism and people were "slaves" to the state in similar way like peasants in feudal system. If he wanted Stalin could called himself Tsar and there wouldn't be much difference between his country and that of Ivan the Terrible. And look at North Korea now - in fact it's quite traditional despotic, hereditary monarchy.
 
  • 12
  • 5
Reactions:

Aramel

Second Lieutenant
54 Badges
Jan 12, 2009
147
795
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Age of Wonders III
  • BATTLETECH
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Europa Universalis IV
I've only read the first and last few pages of this thread, so apologies if this was already mentioned, but hierarchical/egalitarian would go a long way toward encompassing the antebellum American South. The region wasn't really xenophobic per say, or at least no more than anywhere else in the world, and it definitely wasn't collectivist--the South was all about states' rights, after all--but they were very much for inequality and hierarchy. Even beyond the distinction between slaves and plantation owners, you had a massive wealth gap between the many poor white sharecroppers and the elites who ruled society. I guess collectivism makes some sense if you count Soviet gulags as slavery, but then you run back into the problem of the South--fanatically individualistic and not really xenophobic, but all about the slavery.
How does "states' rights" have anything to do with individualism? An individualist would say that individuals have rights, not states. An individualist wouldn't argue that a state has the "right" to violate the rights of individuals by enslaving them. The only individualists in the civil war were the abolitionists.
Collectivism is the privileging of groups over individuals. It doesn't matter if that group is "The United States" or "The State of South Carolina"; it's still collectivism.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

Winterwolf00

Captain
77 Badges
May 4, 2012
342
362
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
Collectivism is often broken into two categories, vertical and horizontal collectivism.
Vertical Collectivism is basically authoritarian, hierarchical societies while horizontal collectivism is more egalitarian and equal.

One could easily say that democracy is a form of horizontal collectivism.
 
  • 6
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

mighij

Second Lieutenant
105 Badges
Nov 14, 2012
183
261
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • For the Motherland
  • Gettysburg
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • King Arthur II
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
Well, he's right. West and Europe living luxury lives based o resources ripped from Africa and both Americas. Some of the most peaceful counties like Belgium did unimaginably horrible things in Africa to get more from it. And don't let me start with "Great British Empire" who managed to starve millions in its Asian colonies even in WW2 (and that's almost the middle of 20th century) because they don't care and simply siphon all the resources into Metropolis.
And for: "it was X years, centuries ago so it doesn't affect current situation", i advice to read latest studies in economics field. A small hint - it totally does.

And that's why the first two European countries (Spain and Portugal) who managed to exploit this are still the most wealthy european countries?

In essence the story is quite simple. The way humans organize their society has only changed dramatically 3 times in the course of history.

The first time was the Agricultural revolution. When human society became sedentary our entire way of life changed. Power and Wealth resided with the landowners and whether they were babylonian priest/kings, Egyptian Pharaohs, Japanese shoguns or medieval Lords it didn't change much. Nearly every war between 5.000 BC and 15th/17th century was between landed nobility who owned land and one of the main goals was to conquer more land that could be cultivated.

This revolution would spawn many things:
- Money: The surplus of food allowed people to specialize in other professions for which they could get paid.
- The concept of an army: To muster an army you need a surplus of food and some sort of central leadership.
- Philosophy: again wealth created by land owners allowed them to pursue other interests.
- Writing: to keep an inventory and make taxation possible.
- Mass Slavery: In pre-agricultural societies a male prisoner is rather useless. It's another mouth to feed but you can't leave him alone with the women and you can't take him with you on the hunt.

The Industrial revolution changed all of this. It was no longer land which determined Wealth and Power but production and the means of production which led to the rise of a new force in society. We still use the terms of the landed nobility to describe them (Steel and Coal barons) but they fundamentally changed the way we live. Western Europe was the birth place of this revolution and it changed the balance of powers in such an extreme way that Western Europe, and later on the USA, dominated the world. A prime example of this would be the French, Dutch, English and Spanish fighting each other in America and Asia. Disease and other Europeans where often a bigger problem then the local inhabitants. the list of countries that weren't completely conquered by European nations is surprisingly short (China, Japan, Afghanistan and Turkey).

The Steam engine is a prime example but even the 15th century printing press is a precursor of this mass-production. Where before a single highly trained individual (in Europe often monks) had to work 1 day to copy 4/5 pages of a book we now had a machine who could copy nearly 4000 pages in 1 day. This changed everything.

Mass production, Industrial power became the defining way to create wealth and this would rapidly change the way we fought wars. It would lead to conflict in countries when the political power from the landed aristocracy was challenged by those who had become wealthy without owning large tracts of land. The French revolution is a prime example. The Levee en Masse called upon the "free" citizens of the state to fight instead of previous wars where royalty or nobility called upon their subjects to take arms. Suddenly the French State could field an army of 800.000 to 1.000.000 men, supported by an entire country. New means of productions could produce enough weaponry, clothes and tools to equip such a force. This is 3 to 4 times the army France could field 80 years earlier ( War of the Spanishc Succession). A mere 120 years later France would call upon 8.000.000 men during the first World War. Together with the 2nd World War a perfect example of how Mass production and in the end, mass destruction in the form of the atomic bomb, would define our society.

(btw the 3rd time it changed was in the USA during the '60 where information became they key to wealth. Look at modern day rich people like Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page etc ... The transformation from 'dumb' technology to 'smart' technology but this is a topic for another time)
 
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:

AmpsterMan

Lt. General
54 Badges
Aug 14, 2011
1.365
713
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • 500k Club
I prefer OP's definition, but i think what PDS is going for is that Collectivist means people work for the state, and individualist means the state works for the individual.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

eon47

Colonel
107 Badges
Jan 24, 2013
1.064
637
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV
How does "states' rights" have anything to do with individualism? An individualist would say that individuals have rights, not states. An individualist wouldn't argue that a state has the "right" to violate the rights of individuals by enslaving them. The only individualists in the civil war were the abolitionists.
Collectivism is the privileging of groups over individuals. It doesn't matter if that group is "The United States" or "The State of South Carolina"; it's still collectivism.

This point actually highlights the problem of collectivism vs. individualism quite well--whose rights are privileged, and whose values should be considered those of the group to rebel from or conform to in the first place? Individuality is problematic because absolute individuality--total freedom of the individual from the state--must inevitably lead to those with power using it to restrict the rights of others for personal gain. Without the presence of the state to, say, outlaw slavery or prevent powerful individuals from organizing and forcibly enacting a new state, there arguably cannot be absolute individuality. Instead, there must be a balance between where society decides the individual should have freedom of action--freedom to do as they wish without government interference--and where the state is used to prevent individuals from restricting the freedom of others, which results in freedom from coercion. Consequently, the Gilded Age of America could be considered a height of individualism since it allowed for greater freedom of action (the wealthy could do as they wished) even as these policies resulted in most individuals not having freedom from coercion. Think American mining towns and the people there that, as a result of little regulation in the industry, had to work continuously with no hope of personal freedom. Alternatively, you could look at modern day Norway and argue that even if people there have less freedom of action than their counterparts in the previous example--there is much greater regulation--the individual has more options and choices for living their life without other kinds of interference. Which society is more individualistic--which privileges the individual over the group--then becomes a question of which individuals you want to empower over which groups.

Returning to the main question, then, Is it not "individualistic" to allow Southern planters to do as they see fit for their own communities rather than requiring them to bow to the will of the federal government and through it the will of the nation? I would argue so. The use of the state to enforce slavery a la Russian gulags is certainly collectivist, but the choice of not using the state to prevent individuals from practicing slavery is individualistic. While it may be politically convenient to attempt to lump together these two opposing extremes under a single banner so as to make one's own views seem more valid, it leads to a less coherent and altogether more subjective system. It's almost like any system or ideology can be abused when taken to the extreme...

But I digress. Ultimately, this is why hierarchical vs. egalitarian makes much more sense, as it explicitly recognizes the role of power rather than the subjective freedom of the individual in issues like slavery.
 
  • 5
  • 3
Reactions:

FirstCitizen80

Sergeant
88 Badges
Oct 12, 2008
95
177
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
The use of the state to enforce slavery a la Russian gulags is certainly collectivist, but the choice of not using the state to prevent individuals from practicing slavery is individualistic.

I kind of get where you're coming from on this. On the other hand, slavery, at least as it functioned in the American South, couldn't have functioned without state support. It was the state militias, and even sometimes federal soldiers, that were called upon to put down slave revolts for instance...militias maintained by collectivism. While private individuals paid the majority of the expense for catching runaways, their efforts were state subsidized by publicly funded jails and sheriffs. And of course, one of the main gripes of the North was that it was the Federal government that the South was trying to browbeat the free-states with when they passed the various Fugitive Slave acts, basically making it a crime not to help slave owners catch their slaves. How is throwing people in jail for not helping you catch your runaway slaves if they don't want to individualistic?

Indeed, without the support of state power, both local and federal, I don't really see a U.S. South style slave system functioning. If you look at what happened in the North, after the Revolution, the state governments basically stopped using its power to support slavery more so than outlaw it...meaning that they wouldn't help masters catch runaways or force others to, and that was enough to kill off the institution there.

So I'd argue that U.S. South was still very collectivist, its collective was just differently defined.
 
  • 2
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

TheDungen

Field Marshal
80 Badges
Jan 31, 2015
12.131
7.922
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
I kind of get where you're coming from on this. On the other hand, slavery, at least as it functioned in the American South, couldn't have functioned without state support. It was the state militias, and even sometimes federal militias, that were called upon to put down slave revolts for instance...militias maintained by collectivism. While private individuals paid the majority of the expense for catching runaways, their efforts were state subsidized by publicly funded jails and sheriffs. And of course, one of the main gripes of the North was that it was the Federal government that the South was trying to browbeat the free-states with when they passed the various Fugitive Slaves acts, basically making it a crime not to help slave owners catch their slaves. How is throwing people in jail for not helping you catch your runaway slaves if they don't want to individualistic?

Indeed, without the support of state power, both local and federal, I don't really see a U.S. South style slave system functioning. If you look at what happened in the North, after the Revolution, the state governments basically stopped using its power to support slavery more so than outlaw it...meaning that they wouldn't help masters catch runaways or force others to, and that was enough to kill off the institution there.

So I'd argue that U.S. South was still very collectivist, its collective was just differently defined.
Like I said a dozen or so pages ago, what you end up with following a super individualistic state is not an ethernal sate of individualism but rather an oligarchy where one group expolits another while banding together into a group large/powerful enough to protect that privilige.
 
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions:

eon47

Colonel
107 Badges
Jan 24, 2013
1.064
637
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV
That's a good counterpoint--some enforcement of slavery was codified into the state of the South, if we can call it that. The important thing to me is that the South relied on the private individual as the main actor even if the state was peripherally involved in enforcement, while the state was sole actor in the U.S.S.R.'s version of slavery.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:

John Forseti

Northumbrian Nationalist
112 Badges
Jan 13, 2008
1.550
1.698
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • For the Motherland
I kind of get where you're coming from on this. On the other hand, slavery, at least as it functioned in the American South, couldn't have functioned without state support. It was the state militias, and even sometimes federal soldiers, that were called upon to put down slave revolts for instance...militias maintained by collectivism. And of course, one of the main gripes of the North was that it was the Federal government that the South was trying to browbeat the free-states with when they passed the various Fugitive Slave acts, basically making it a crime not to help slave owners catch their slaves. How is throwing people in jail for not helping you catch your runaway slaves if they don't want to individualistic?

From their perspective though they were enforcing the individual's right to own property, in this case slaves.
 
  • 6
Reactions:

Sabotage13

Break the Chains
42 Badges
Jul 24, 2013
736
674
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Ideally no; a perfect Objectivist state would put the brakes on the use of violence against one's workers (unless they were occupying factories or something).
Obviously. A perfect state would after all be perfect, by definition.
 

TheDungen

Field Marshal
80 Badges
Jan 31, 2015
12.131
7.922
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Humble Paradox Bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • War of the Roses
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Obviously. A perfect state would after all be perfect, by definition.
Well there's a diffrence between a perfect objectivistic sate and a perfect objectivistic state. The question being if it's the state that's perfect or just it's objectivism.