Collectivism vs Individualism and Slavery Tolerance

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MysticHero

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I am pretty sure collectivism here is ment to present facism. The only thing that annyos me and honestly is just straight out contradicting the thos is that it says "everyone is equal" in the description. That realy doesnt make sence considering it gives slavery tolerance. I think they should have called it freedom and order. And left the equality part out of it. I also think there is a serious lack of socialist ethos. It is for instance impossible to make the Star Trek humans without such an ethos.
 
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gerishnakov

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I am pretty sure collectivism here is ment to present facism. The only thing that annyos me and honestly is just straight out contradicting the thos is that it says "everyone is equal" in the description. That realy doesnt make sence considering it gives slavery tolerance. I think they should have called it freedom and order. And left the equality part out of it. I also think there is a serious lack of socialist ethos. It is for instance impossible to make the Star Trek humans without such an ethos.

If you want to make 'true socialism' race (which we have never had yet on Earth) you're best off going for something like a xenophile-pacifist-materialist government.

Collectivism does seem to best resemble a kind of fascism/totalitarianism, except that in one of the most recent patches PDS for some reason made both regular collectivism and its fanatic variant give 100% slavery tolerance. Surely a moderately collectivist society would still have a less than 100% tolerance of slavery? That and for some other reason you now have to have collectivist as an ethos if you want to enslave anyone.
 

myrsl0ken

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I'm just popping in to inform you that you perpetuate the original mistake made by Paradox: mixing up the terms collectivism/individualism with egalitarianism/authoritarianism. P-dox assumes that all collectivists are authoritarian and all individualists are egalitarian when in fact almost everyone on earth except fascists say that they are egalitarian but in reality few systems have yet to practice it. I would argue that the Nordic social democracies have so far achieved the most egalitarian societies by a COMBINATION of individualist and collectivist policies.
 
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Morbid Gerbil

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The acceptance of Slavery could be tied to another ethos

Collective Xenophiles might hate the thought
Collective Militarists might have no real objections
etc etc

the same spread could equally be applied to purging & sentient constructs

as a bonus it would make each individual empire more unique when only 1 ethos is shared between them.
 

BrokenSky

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If you want to make 'true socialism' race (which we have never had yet on Earth) you're best off going for something like a xenophile-pacifist-materialist government.

Collectivism does seem to best resemble a kind of fascism/totalitarianism, except that in one of the most recent patches PDS for some reason made both regular collectivism and its fanatic variant give 100% slavery tolerance. Surely a moderately collectivist society would still have a less than 100% tolerance of slavery? That and for some other reason you now have to have collectivist as an ethos if you want to enslave anyone.

that's probably for gameplay/balance rather than fluff reasons, since the penalties on slavery without slavery tolerance are so large that you basically need 100% to be able to use slaves effectively (and now you can't get the rest from divine mandate).
 

DinoNuggets

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Nobody here seems to have read any communist manuscripts. Collectivists usually consider individual ideals to spread things like slavery and oligarchies, because individualism usually means "I should have the individual right to do anything I want with my economic success, even if that includes enslaving others to benefit my business." Collective ideology (at least historically) has never promoted the idea of slavery, in fact many of the first socialists/communist were anti-imperialistic and demanded the end of exploitation of the workers.

I mean when you have a mandate called "the means of production should belong to the working class" in the collective sphere, it makes you wonder how it can correlate with slavery at all.

A better collective ethos in my opinion would be something like: -100% slavery tolerance, 5% happiness bonus to all citizens, -10% food consumption.

Individualism would also be: +100% slavery tolerance, 5% increase to energy income, 5% increase to mineral income.

When I made an anarcho-communist society for example, I made it fanatic xenophile with regular materialism. This allowed me to select direct democracy which I then upgraded to >>Subconscious Consensus<<. The word seems pretty collective to me, if everyone has the equal representation to vote on everything that happens in their lives.

When I made an empire similar to the soviet union, I chose xenophile (bear in mind that even though the USSR was very oppressive to it's people, things like racism, homophobia, misogyny and bigotry in general was looked down upon) militarist, and materialist and then selected Despotic Hegemony as the government (I did think about making it a military dictatorship, however I see the soviet union more as a bureaucracy than a military dictatorship).
 
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gerishnakov

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Nobody here seems to have read any communist manuscripts. Collectivists usually consider individual ideals to spread things like slavery and oligarchies, because individualism usually means "I should have the individual right to do anything I want with my economic success, even if that includes enslaving others to benefit my business." Collective ideology (at least historically) has never promoted the idea of slavery, in fact many of the first socialists/communist were anti-imperialistic and demanded the end of exploitation of the workers.

I mean when you have a mandate called "the means of production should belong to the working class" in the collective sphere, it makes you wonder how it can correlate with slavery at all.

A better collective ethos in my opinion would be something like: -100% slavery tolerance, 5% happiness bonus to all citizens, -10% food consumption.

Individualism would also be: +100% slavery tolerance, 5% increase to energy income, 5% increase to mineral income.

When I made an anarcho-communist society for example, I made it fanatic xenophile with regular materialism. This allowed me to select direct democracy which I then upgraded to >>Subconscious Consensus<<. The word seems pretty collective to me, if everyone has the equal representation to vote on everything that happens in their lives.

When I made an empire similar to the soviet union, I chose xenophile (bear in mind that even though the USSR was very oppressive to it's people, things like racism, homophobia, misogyny and bigotry in general was looked down upon) militarist, and materialist and then selected Despotic Hegemony as the government (I did think about making it a military dictatorship, however I see the soviet union more as a bureaucracy than a military dictatorship).

That's pretty much what I suggested. I also have a Soviet Union custom race, which was in my eyes perfect, until the patches started messing with the ethoses.
 

Silmarion

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Collectivism, the Stellaris ethos, has nothing to do with communism/socialism. That would be the Social Welfare policy that any society in game can run. In game terms, Collectivism represents any sort of authoritarian/hierachical society, and would probably be better off renamed as such. It can cover the Soviet Union, but would be equally aplicable to Tsarist Russia.

I'd also rename Indvidualist to Egalitarian.
 
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gerishnakov

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Collectivism, the Stellaris ethos, has nothing to do with communism/socialism. That would be the Social Welfare policy that any society in game can run. In game terms, Collectivism represents any sort of authoritarian/hierachical society, and would probably be better off renamed as such. It can cover the Soviet Union, but would be equally aplicable to Tsarist Russia.

I'd also rename Indvidualist to Egalitarian.

Yeah it's more like a liberal/totalitarian divide.
 

Demarque

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This has got me thinking: would the Turians from Mass Effect be collectivists? Sure they are hierarchical and value order a lot, but they don't seem so keen on enslaving and purging, or even on being authoritarian.
 

Chaos_TLW

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Sure they are hierarchical and value order a lot
...there's your answer.
In-game collectivist doesn't force you into being evil, it makes it easier to justify it. From a roleplay perspective, it means putting the good of the whole above all(food consumption... I guess), even if it means sacrificing individual liberties(all that slavery and purging unpleasantness) in the process.

A good example of that is their Ministry of Benevolence. From the tech description they can either be taken at face value as a centralized and streamlined ministry dedicated to managing and administering various forms of social welfare and public works to keep the populace satisfied and in-line with the State, or a repressive secret police-like state sec charged with keeping any and all dissent to a minimum through any means necessary.
 

gerishnakov

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This has got me thinking: would the Turians from Mass Effect be collectivists? Sure they are hierarchical and value order a lot, but they don't seem so keen on enslaving and purging, or even on being authoritarian.

Back when Collectivism didn't give 100% slavery tolerance, I thought the Turians would be Fanatic Militarist and regular Collectivist.
 

War_lord

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This has got me thinking: would the Turians from Mass Effect be collectivists? Sure they are hierarchical and value order a lot, but they don't seem so keen on enslaving and purging, or even on being authoritarian.

Definitely Fanatic Militarist, I don't think they're collectivist. I'm going to say Fanatic Militarist and Xenophile, given their noted freedom of religion and emphasis on colonizing defeated enemies.
 
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louie97

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This has got me thinking: would the Turians from Mass Effect be collectivists? Sure they are hierarchical and value order a lot, but they don't seem so keen on enslaving and purging, or even on being authoritarian.
Absolutely collectivist. The individual is thought to exist for the benefit of the society, if I understood right. Remember slavery isn't an absolute requirement.
 

Naelar

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Collectivists have no problem prohibiting slavery. It's just a matter of having the power of such decisions in selected people, such as a council or monarch. To me, collectivism has many different flavors, depending on what the player wants to do and ethos combinations. Spiritualist collectivists easily are in service to their divine utterly, whereas a materialist collectivist have little to do with slavery and more to do with ensuring their scientific goals.

Collectivism has the most flavor with the other ethos's, imo.