Collectivism vs Individualism and Slavery Tolerance

[REDDQ]

Its a model how it could be. Sure one can find arguments for either side, but after all its a game and if you accept slavery with both sides, what would be the point? You accept slavery with every ethos?

I just oppose people pretending to forget who actually kept slaves and pretend that they do not understand from where this opposition is coming from. I mean it is argued that individualist would value other being's freedoms while forgetting that key component of slavery is not seeing the slave as equal and thus not deserving any rights.

But you are right, what would be the point? I would drop slavery of your own species and tie alien slavery to xenophobe (and it probably already is) where you do not see them as equals and keep as slaves as opposite to xenophile where you happily accept them into your domain. Hive mind and such are rather detach concepts from both slavery and collectivism so they should be like separate traits.

 

[IIWW]

I just oppose people pretending to forget who actually kept slaves and pretend that they do not understand from where this opposition is coming from. I mean it is argued that individualist would value other being's freedoms while forgetting that key component of slavery is not seeing the slave as equal and thus not deserving any rights.

But you are right, what would be the point? I would drop slavery of your own species and tie alien slavery to xenophobe (and it probably already is) where you do not see them as equals and keep as slaves as opposite to xenophile where you happily accept them into your domain. Hive mind and such are rather detach concepts from both slavery and collectivism so they should be like separate traits.

I wouldn't really call XV-XIX cent america to be individualist society. The idea of abolitionism came from the belief that slaves do have rights to, not that it does not benefit the society.

 

[dogblues]

Ants and bees aren't any form of hive mind, they obey pheromones but they sill are individuals.

Well, shows how much I know of biology
But still, they are very much collectivists, wouldn't you say?

 

[Ixal]

I wouldn't really call XV-XIX cent america to be individualist society. The idea of abolitionism came from the belief that slaves do have rights to, not that it does not benefit the society.

America has always been a individualistic society, from its founding to its present.
You can always find counter examples to what the game has, for example also the Roman Republic which was big into slavery.
Still that in general there is a lot less distance from having a society where it is normal for individuals to be subservient to the group or state to actual slavery than in a individualistic society where the rights of a person are held in high regard is pretty obvious

 

[Botox]

I just oppose people pretending to forget who actually kept slaves and pretend that they do not understand from where this opposition is coming from. I mean it is argued that individualist would value other being's freedoms while forgetting that key component of slavery is not seeing the slave as equal and thus not deserving any rights.

Nothing to argue here from my side. But this game is sci fi, lets just pretend that people see that human is human and thus deserves... well whatever same rights you have in a government then. It is the ethos of your government after all, so it says all under your rule are individuals with rights or all under your rule have to bend to a collective will of some sort.

But you are right, what would be the point? I would drop slavery of your own species and tie alien slavery to xenophobe (and it probably already is) where you do not see them as equals and keep as slaves as opposite to xenophile where you happily accept them into your domain. Hive mind and such are rather detach concepts from both slavery and collectivism so they should be like separate traits.

You can enslave other races (xenophobe), you can enslave criminals (nothing xeno in here), you can enslave the poor (no xeno either).
So if you have to put it somewhere, I still think its best in the collectivist/individualist ethos.

 

[I_AM_King_Midas]

Y'all are reading this wrong. There are 2 different slavery modifiers.

On the collectivism vs. individualism scale you have slave tolerance.
On the xenophobe xenophile scale you have alien slave tolerance.

I believe alien slave tolerance is how happy are you about making others slaves. Slave tolerance is about how good are you with your species being enslaved. So it makes sense that an individualist society would be less happy about being forced into a role and how a collectivist society could see how they are one spoke in a big wheel.

 

[John Forseti]

The problem is the description for 'moderate' Collectivism specifically states "We are truly equal"... well, you're not if you have a bunch of your own people being enslaved! That's clearly a more socialist or communistic interpretation I think. With slaves in Stellaris we're also talking POPs here, and judging by the number of starting pops we see in gameplay footage I think each POP represents roughly a billion people. So you can't just pass off these slaves as political enemies that got packed off to space siberia.

It feels like whoever wrote the descriptions had a different idea to whoever decided the modifiers, which is actually quite likely if you imagine the descriptions were written much earlier and then the modifiers are continually altered and tested and balanced and so on as development continued.

 

[Korashy]

Y'all are reading this wrong. There are 2 different slavery modifiers.

On the collectivism vs. individualism scale you have slave tolerance.
On the xenophobe xenophile scale you have alien slave tolerance.

I believe alien slave tolerance is how happy are you about making others slaves. Slave tolerance is about how good are you with your species being enslaved. So it makes sense that an individualist society would be less happy about being forced into a role and how a collectivist society could see how they are one spoke in a big wheel.

That's actually an interesting way to look at it. In terms of not is slavery okay yes/no, but is it okay to enslave my own species yes/no, is it okay to enslave other species yes/no. But how does that effect the Policy on slavery? Can you have slavery, even though all your pops hate it, but it just makes them unhappy, or does it lock the option?

 

[dogblues]

Y'all are reading this wrong. There are 2 different slavery modifiers.

On the collectivism vs. individualism scale you have slave tolerance.
On the xenophobe xenophile scale you have alien slave tolerance.

I believe alien slave tolerance is how happy are you about making others slaves. Slave tolerance is about how good are you with your species being enslaved. So it makes sense that an individualist society would be less happy about being forced into a role and how a collectivist society could see how they are one spoke in a big wheel.

You are right.
That does make sense.

I imagine that in the ''slavery'' section of the policies screen there will be options such as ''prohibited'', ''only slavery of aliens'', ''only slavery of own species'', ''full'', etc.
I found it interesting that only the options you're allowed to take appear in that screen. I mean, it isn't even greyed out. Like in quill18's video, he chose xenophile so the only option that appeared when he collapsed the slavery menu was ''prohibited''. So who knows what other options there might be?

 

[REDDQ]

I wouldn't really call XV-XIX cent america to be individualist society. The idea of abolitionism came from the belief that slaves do have rights to, not that it does not benefit the society.

I think it wasn't collectivist either. One could also argue that slaves were freed to work in factories located in northern states instead of south plantations which would also imply individual interest of industry owners. There were people supporting abolitionism, no argument there, but I question the pull they had to achieve anything.

Nothing to argue here from my side. But this game is sci fi, lets just pretend that people see that human is human and thus deserves... well whatever same rights you have in a government then. It is the ethos of your government after all, so it says all under your rule are individuals with rights or all under your rule have to bend to a collective will of some sort.

You can enslave other races (xenophobe), you can enslave criminals (nothing xeno in here), you can enslave the poor (no xeno either).
So if you have to put it somewhere, I still think its best in the collectivist/individualist ethos.

Well, no matter what, I suppose we all gonna have to live with it

Let's just call it a gameplay decision.

 

[Masterbean]

I imagine that in the ''slavery'' section of the policies screen there will be options such as ''prohibited'', ''only slavery of aliens'', ''only slavery of own species'', ''full'', etc.

I remember seeing something like that in one of the streams so I guess it'll turn out like that. Don't have a link present though, will have to find it again.

 

[IIWW]

I think it wasn't collectivist either. One could also argue that slaves were freed to work in factories located in northern states instead of south plantations which would also imply individual interest of industry owners. There were people supporting abolitionism, no argument there, but I question the pull they had to achieve anything.

I agree it was not colectivist, I would place it on "neutral". The ideological base for abolitionism was 100% individualism.

 

[vyshan]

I am more annoyed at the lack of democratic options than the slavery bonus. As for my species I planned on doing my AAR on, the Raksasa, I had been envisioning them having collectivist 1(along with pacifist 1, and xenophile 1) and a constitutional monarchy style of government. I had envionsed them with a parliamentarian model, though it seems like that is not the case anymore. not sure what the other governments are like that would be closer aligned to that model while still keeping collectivism 1.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I am more annoyed at the lack of democratic options than the slavery bonus. As for my species I planned on doing my AAR on, the Raksasa, I had been envisioning them having collectivist 1(along with pacifist 1, and xenophile 1) and a constitutional monarchy style of government. I had envionsed them with a parliamentarian model, though it seems like that is not the case anymore. not sure what the other governments are like that would be closer aligned to that model while still keeping collectivism 1.

Same here, I wanted to make a human faction based on Asia, which has its fair share of working democracies in countries known to have more collectivist cultures compared to the US (and I think even a lot of European countries have more collectivist cultures compared to the US, anyways). I'm not sure why collectivism would be a problem, I could see the argument that fanatical individualism would not necessarily work well with democratic governments as well. I guess maybe for me I'm interpreting collectivism in the more classical anthropological sense, rather than communism per se.

For you though I think Enlightened Monarchy is available with Pacifist 1, that might be the closest to what you're looking for?

Anyways, I hope it changes, but guess I'd have to change it myself if it doesn't.

 

[Rogan de Auria]

IRL Collectivism / Individualism as an axis is not correlated to slavery in any way.

The usual representation of the political spectrum is a bidimensional chart with an Authoritarian/Libertarian axis (mostly related to civil and human rights) and a Collectivist/Individualist axis (mainly related to economics).

Slavery is a matter of Authoritarianism (pro coercion) vs Libertarianism (against coercion).
IRL booth “pro forced labor authoritarian collectivism” and “pro bonded labor -or even pro chattel slavery- authoritarian individualism” can exist. And no libertarians -booth collectivist and individualist- are, by definition, in favor of slavery of any kind.

In the game this Authoritarianism/libertarianism axis is best represented by the Governments feature since there is an Autocratic (high coercion), an Oligarchic (medium coercion) and a Democratic (low coercion) option for every “source of authority”. So IMHO slavery should be out of the collectivist/individualist axis.

 

[DerGrindelwutz]

I think the problem is that we're looking at collectivism vs. individualism from a historical human point of view. In the grand scale of things, US style capitalism as well as Marxist communism would both rank as individualistic, with USSR-style dictatorships leaning more on the collectivist side, but still relatively mild. True Collectivism would be a hive mind, where all means necessary to the "greater good" of the colony are accepted, from slavery to suicide commandos (exploding ant style). Basically, what I'm saying is that Socialism vs Capitalism are basically different things than Collectivism vs. Individualism.

Relating to slavery tolerance, this means that Individualists are against slavery, because they believe that all people/species have individual rights (which is also why they have democratic governments), and Collectivists are accepting of it because it serves the good of the empire/hive/etc.

 

[vyshan]

Same here, I wanted to make a human faction based on Asia, which has its fair share of working democracies in countries known to have more collectivist cultures compared to the US (and I think even a lot of European countries have more collectivist cultures compared to the US, anyways). I'm not sure why collectivism would be a problem, I could see the argument that fanatical individualism would not necessarily work well with democratic governments as well. I guess maybe for me I'm interpreting collectivism in the more classical anthropological sense, rather than communism per se.

Yea, similar to my idea; which probaly isn't surprising since I been looking to that part of the world in general for other insperation for my empire.

Here is the description of how I equated their collectivism:

While Raksasa are individuals with personal desires, their instinct is to equate the self with the group, and set aside personal desires for the good of all. Personal accomplishments that benefit one's group tend to be celebrated. Raksasa are taught to own every decision they make, good or ill. The worst sin they can make in the eyes of their people is to lie about their own actions.

For you though I think Enlightened Monarchy is available with Pacifist 1, that might be the closest to what you're looking for?

Anyways, I hope it changes, but guess I'd have to change it myself if it doesn't.

Aye, lets hope.

Btw what are the effects of Enlightened monarchy? I don't think I seen that one yet.

 

[Korashy]

Yea, similar to my idea; which probaly isn't surprising since I been looking to that part of the world in general for other insperation for my empire.

Here is the description of how I equated their collectivism:

While Raksasa are individuals with personal desires, their instinct is to equate the self with the group, and set aside personal desires for the good of all. Personal accomplishments that benefit one's group tend to be celebrated. Raksasa are taught to own every decision they make, good or ill. The worst sin they can make in the eyes of their people is to lie about their own actions.



Aye, lets hope.

Btw what are the effects of Enlightened monarchy? I don't think I seen that one yet.

http://www.stellariswiki.com/Government

wiki has a list of all Ethos, Traits and Government Types with their Boni

 

[John Forseti]

I think the problem is that we're looking at collectivism vs. individualism from a historical human point of view.

As did whoever wrote the current in-game descriptions. As I said before 'moderate collectivism' mentions equality, and moderate individualism mentions 'free trade'. The clear intention is a vague mapping of communism vs capitalism.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Yea, similar to my idea; which probaly isn't surprising since I been looking to that part of the world in general for other insperation for my empire.

Here is the description of how I equated their collectivism:

While Raksasa are individuals with personal desires, their instinct is to equate the self with the group, and set aside personal desires for the good of all. Personal accomplishments that benefit one's group tend to be celebrated. Raksasa are taught to own every decision they make, good or ill. The worst sin they can make in the eyes of their people is to lie about their own actions.



Aye, lets hope.

Btw what are the effects of Enlightened monarchy? I don't think I seen that one yet.

In my case I'm actually trying to have literal Asians IN SPACE (or, well, rather, Asian-Americans who for various reasons are looking to what they see as their heritage, and a rejection of some of the more individualistic elements of American culture) so... yeah.... Anyways, I think they just added the effects for Enlightened Monarchy to the wiki. I might consider that one and alter my faction's background story if I can't get Democracy.