Collectivism vs Individualism and Slavery Tolerance

[Korashy]

Not sure if I'm understanding this correctly, but why do Collectivists have higher tolerance for slavery? Shouldn't it be reversed? The collectivist is willing to give up part of his freedom or money or whatever for the betterment of the group as a whole. The individualist on the other hand only seeks his own advantage and screw everyone else.

Imho the individualist would have much less issue with keep slaves, because the slaves aren't him and they serve to his advantage, while the collectivist must surely see the unfairness of exploiting someone in slavery.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

Not necessarily, a collectivist society could see slavery not as owning someone but rather citizens serving the common good via involuntary labor. While an individualist society could see slavery as the ultimate evil because it restricts an individual's (i.e the slave) right to autonomy. My point is that an argument could easily made supporting paradox's position.

 

[Dornian]

I think this "slavery" is just forcing to work - you MUST work for collecrive, and something like that.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

I think this "slavery" is just forcing to work - you MUST work for collecrive, and something like that.

Exactly, it's not necessarily bought and sold in an auction house but rather arrested by the government for some reason or other and forced into a life of servitude.

 

[Korashy]

Not necessarily, a collectivist society could see slavery not as owning someone but rather citizens serving the common good via involuntary labor. While an individualist society could see slavery as the ultimate evil because it restricts an individual's (i.e the slave) right to autonomy. My point is that an argument could easily made supporting paradox's position.

But that wouldn't really be collectivist though, it doesn't include the whole. It advantages one fraction of the group in this case over another.

 

[Dornian]

Exactly, it's not necessarily bought and sold in an auction house but rather arrested by the government for some reason or other and forced into a life of servitude.

If my memory serves me, in one of gameplay video i saw button "Enslave" near the POP on planet. So it's simpler than we thought

 

[aitaituo]

Corvee labor comes to mind.

 

[Korashy]

Corvee labor comes to mind.

Let's be honest here, slavery is most likely going to represent the common type of slavery. We conquered your clay, you are now our slaves with no (or minimal rights), and do what your are told. You may or may not have a way to buy your freedom (which is really just a control method in a slavery system), but you will probably die a slave.

 

[Fourthspartan56]

But that wouldn't really be collectivist though, it doesn't include the whole. It advantages one fraction of the group in this case over another.

col·lec·tiv·ism
kəˈlektəˌvizəm/
noun

1. the practice or principle of giving a group priority over each individual in it.

A collectivist society could justify slavery in the name of the common good. I'm not saying that every collectivist society has to be like this (after-all I consider myself collectivist) rather I'm simply stating that collectivism can justify slavery.

 

[IIWW]

No. From colectivist point of view slavery can be accepted if it benefits the group.
Form individualist point of view, taking away ones freedom to achieve better well-being of a group is wrong.

 

[Botox]

Doesnt always have to be slavery as we know it from the infamous part of american or african history.

Serfdom was more common in other areas of the world when it was still allowed. There are many forms of forced and unpaied work by some people that doesnt always have to be slavery but may be unified under that phrase in the game.

Not necessarily, a collectivist society could see slavery not as owning someone but rather citizens serving the common good via involuntary labor. While an individualist society could see slavery as the ultimate evil because it restricts an individual's (i.e the slave) right to autonomy. My point is that an argument could easily made supporting paradox's position.

Which is what I'd say was ment by those modifiers. Individualist = each individual has his own rights "...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...", whereas Collectivism = The needs of many surpase the needs of the few...

 

[Ixal]

In Collectivism the idea of sacrificing personal freedom and desires for the benefit of others is already a accepted concept. From there it is not all the far to slavery, meaning forcing other people to sacrifice their personal freedom and desires.

In an individualistic society on the other hand personal freedom valuing more than the interest of the state is the norm and even if only the evil alien prisoners are affected by it slavery goes against this norm and might rub people the wrong way, even when they benefit from it.

 

[Kimberly]

The interpretation of collectivism that Stellaris seems to practice is that the individual is subservient to the interests of the collective, whereas in an individualist framework the individual has rights to do things that may not be in the collective interest. Stellaris collectivists are not socialists; if some laborers need to suffer for the good of the whole, that is acceptable.

 

[Korashy]

col·lec·tiv·ism
kəˈlektəˌvizəm/
noun

1. the practice or principle of giving a group priority over each individual in it.

A collectivist society could justify slavery in the name of the common good. I'm not saying that every collectivist society has to be like this (after-all I consider myself collectivist) rather I'm simply stating that collectivism can justify slavery.

I don't see fanatical collectivists such as say communists (ideal philosophical communism) be cool with enslaving part of the population. I'm assuming that collectivists here push an equality doctrine.

 

[qer]

Honestly I don't think that being neither collectivist nor individualistic should affect tolerance to slavery. Societies thought all the history had used slaves or similar persons as a very cheap labor force. The gulag system in the USSR or the exploitation of African colonies are good examples for both fields. So I think that slavery opinion should could come from more philosophical ethos: spiritualist vs materialist; pacifistic vs militaristic ; xenophile vs xenophobic

That's being said, I think that in a far-left non totalitarian collectivist society (original Marxism or utopic socialism) slavery would be unthinkable while in an ultra-capitalist society it may happen similar practices ( although voluntary labor> force labor )

 

[IIWW]

I don't see fanatical collectivists such as say communists (ideal philosophical communism) be cool with enslaving part of the population. I'm assuming that collectivists here push an equality doctrine.

Theoretical? Maybe. But practical saw nothing wrong with Kolhoz's and Gulags. So that fits.

 

[Korashy]

It seems especially wonky in terms of the governments unlocked by either ethos:

Collectivism:

• Military Republic
• Theocratic Republic
• Direct Democracy
• Moral Democracy
• Indirect Democracy

Individualism:

• Military Dictatorship
• Divine Mandate
• Despotic Hegemony
• Enlighten Monarchy
• Despotic Empire

So Republics and Democracy are much more likely to have large slave populations than Dictatorships, and other autocratic government forms?

 

[IIWW]

It seems especially wonky in terms of the governments unlocked by either ethos:

Collectivism:

• Military Republic
• Theocratic Republic
• Direct Democracy
• Moral Democracy
• Indirect Democracy

Individualism:

• Military Dictatorship
• Divine Mandate
• Despotic Hegemony
• Enlighten Monarchy
• Despotic Empire

So Republics and Democracy are much more likely to have large slave populations than Dictatorships, and other autocratic government forms?

Where did You get it from? it's exactly the opposit from wiki.

 

[Korashy]

Where did You get it from? it's exactly the opposit from wiki.

The wiki...


http://www.stellariswiki.com/Ethos

 

[IIWW]

Wiki does not have any info about which gov type they unlock, just about which they lock. Individualist fanatics f.e. LOCKS Military dictatorship, divine mandate, despotic hegemony, enlighten monarchy and despotic empire.