Collectivism increases chance of 'Social Welfare Programs' edict tech?

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

danest

Captain
45 Badges
Oct 20, 2013
352
250
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
A great many of the not-allowed government types across the various ethos don't make sense to me as there are plenty of real life examples that show that they are indeed possible. I may mod them out before my first playthrough. There are just too many examples contrary to the limitations imposed in the game.
I was wary of the association between collectivism and slavery from the start. Of course I haven't played yet but I think it might have been a bad idea to make the collectivist/individualist line balance on slavery. Frankly I think an individualist society could relish selfishness and be fine with slavery, a sort of "I'm fine with slaves, if it's the other guy who is the slave." I wouldn't feel that well-meaning social programs go in line with "We can beat them to death for fun if we want because they're property." Slavery is much more than simply forced work, it can even deny the right to life on a mere whim of the master.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Sir Garnet

Field Marshal
63 Badges
Feb 10, 2004
5.826
1.033
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Victoria 2 Beta
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Sengoku
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
While "Right and Left" are not meaningless terms, their meaning varies from place to place, time to time, and the mind of the speaker. A Right/Left taxonomy seeks to cram diverse multi-dimensional societal arrangements into a one dimensional line, suitable for polemics and propaganda but not for useful categorization, thought or analysis. That is especially evident in this context.

Considering we have not just human but many other species as well, individualism vs. collectivisim is very apt. It clears away the anthromorphism of a lot of terrestial political terms and boils things down to fundamentals that would apply to most, if not all, sentient aliens.

The collectivism/individualism spectrum has real substance for humans, since it addresses the rather fundamental and both philosophical and highly practical question of "who owns you?" I.e., who is entitled to control, exploit, and dispose of you and the fruits of your efforts for their purposes? Do you own yourself? Do one or more other people own you (could be a congress, commissar, corporation, commissioner, king, the electorate of a direct democracy or some other group who are the "state")? That is the first question.

Then there is the issue of whether this ownership is total, partial or qualified, and whether you can rent yourself back by some means, such as performance of corvee labor or other feudal or regulatory requirements, military or other compulsory service, payment of taxes, etc.

This question is fundamental for humans, who can be solitary but are naturally gregarious and cooperative for mutual advantage. The question may be of little relevance for other species with different biology. For a solitary species that may associate only for mating when under a biological imperative (something beyond Fanatic Individualists), the question does not arise, but then one would not expect them to be able to or seek to organize space empires.

The situation changes where the individual organisms are are symbiotes or otherwise biologically incapable of surviving alone. In the extreme case of the empire ruled by an alien Hive Mind's empire, the controlling intelligence is entitled to dispose of all hive members, whose design and only purpose is to be of use to the Hive Mind. They live to serve as organs of the Hive Mind. As mentioned above, cradle-to-grave arrangements for their welfare might be prudent to maximize their usefulness in some cases, while setting them to hazardous tasks or disposing of them for military purposes might be a wise choice by the Hive Mind when their useful service life comes to an end or they malfunction.

Allowed forms of government depend on who the government are and other aspects of ethos, biology, culture etc., and the quest for simplicity often involves some rough corners.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Horror In The Deep

Second Lieutenant
41 Badges
Apr 18, 2016
128
282
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
So, it`s all came back to old question about Individualism/Collectivism? Sigh...
I belive the problem is simpler. It is about a connection between technology "Living State" and edict "Social welfare programs"

"Living State', as wiki tells us, has this description:

"The Empire lives, the Empire breathes. We may make up its body, but it is not for the left hand to know what the right hand is doing"

its bonuses are:

  • Empire Leader Capacity: +2
  • Leader Pool Size: +1
And collectivists have positive modifier for taking this (1.25x if collectivist or fanatic collectivist. )

So, basically Empire works as a living creature, and every "citizen" doing only his job, system is not encouraging him(her) even to think about what others doing.
Sounds very much in line with waht devs tell us collectivism is: "The purpose of the individual is simple; strengthen the collective"

I supose, nobody will argue that collectivist should positive modifier on this tech
(I even not sure that individualists, or even neutrals on this slider should be a ble to take this... it sounds very "hive-mindish")

The problems start because this tech is a perquisite to Edict
"Social welfare programs"

It`s description, according to wiki:

"This edict establishes a large amount of various social programs, at a considerable cost, to ease the lives of the populace.
and it gives/takes
  • +15% Happiness
  • -20% Energy credits
  • -20% Minerals
1) Tech is about good of state. Edict suddenly brings us to good of populace. No, in this contecst thise to words are not synonyms - couse edicts takes Energy/Minirals, witch state could put in use(for example, build some ship) and waste for... well, just for people to be happy!
In fact, this edict helps people at the expanse of state.

2)It`s really don`t look very collectivist - again, if we take paradoxian explanation of what collectivism is. Collectivism in game favors autocracy over democracy,
has no problems with purges (for the good of collective!) and, most importantly in this cause uses slavery.
Collectivists think that slavery is OK because nobody care some socyety members are suffering - if the socyety in whole prospears.
The idea of Social Welfare is, basically, opposite. Society should help it`s vulnerable citizens at all cost. Every single man or woman suold have a disent live conditions, no matter are they doing anything useful for society, or not.

Could a collectivst Empaire waste it`s resources on that?
It could. Some "good' collectvist (like AI personality "Harmonious Collective" is like this, for example) might consider this - because happy workers are good workers, and "good of every citizen IS the good of society!"
But this idea is crossing into neutral-on-this-slider category, if not individualist.
if collectivists should get a modifier on taking the edict, it should be negative.

So, tha mane problem, as I see it, is that collectvist, by having a positive modifier on taking a perfectly collectivist tech, will get a positive modifier on taking very non-collectivistic edict( for the third tmme - I am speaking obout in-game collectivism, a slave-owning collectivism) I believe, that then edict and tech ware connected the meaning of in-game collectivism was not clear or was simply forgoten. And edict become more common to collectivists, because Social welfare is that real life left-wing loves so much.
But, as we all know, real live left-wing are NOT in-game collectivists.

My proposition on this problem would be to cut the connection betwine tech "Living State" and edict "Social welfare programs"
If there is a need to have some edict connected with "Living State" (I am not sure in it, this tech already seems badass) It sould be something more (in-game) collectivism. Something like "Share the Burden" Edict. And "Social welfare programs" should be connected with some other tech - maybe completely new one.

Sorry for such a long post, written in a bad English (not my native). Please, do not think I, or any other people the see a this problem just hate Stellaris and It`s devs. They have done titanic work, and made a wonderful game. I just think there is a LITTLE (again, LITTLE, VERY LITTLE ) problem here, that could be
solved, to make this game even better.
 
Last edited:
  • 5
  • 1
Reactions:

Ojin Migoto

Private
27 Badges
Apr 17, 2016
24
54
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
I like to keep things simple. Can you work? No welfare for you.

I was going to just back out of this thread, my hands raised, but... y'know what? I actually have some personal experience on this specific topic, soo...

I was born to a pretty solidly middle class family. When I was five, my father cheated on my mother, then left. I went from being solidly middle class to living in poverty, with my mother working a factory job. Her parents didn't have the money to support us, my father was terrible at paying child support, and unemployment benefits would not have been enough to support her and me. Working was barely enough. Like I said, with her job, we literally lived in poverty.

I lived in poverty for most of my life. After becoming an adult, I sometimes worked terrible jobs, and sometimes - when for no lack of trying I couldn't find work - I was dependent on income support. I wanted to get out of poverty, but it turns out, it's hard to escape from.

A few years ago, I went back to school. I studied, and I graduated, and now I have a high paying job.

The thing is, if it wasn't for government assistance, I couldn't have done that. There were subsidies for the course. There were payments while I studied. These things made it possible for me to study. Without them, I'd still be in poverty, and possibly still taking money from the government. Because of them, I now contribute to the economy.The benefit far outweighs the cost.
 
  • 10
Reactions:

BrokenSky

Field Marshal
88 Badges
May 1, 2015
4.393
5.727
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Warlock 2: Wrath of the Nagas
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
I was going to just back out of this thread, my hands raised, but... y'know what? I actually have some personal experience on this specific topic, soo...

You fool! You should have left while you had the chance! Now you're trapped here forever! *Maniacal laughter*

But yeah in all seriousness the main problem with the welfare system isn't that we support people who are out of work, its that we don't also support people while are in work well enough.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

PhroX

General
112 Badges
Apr 6, 2009
1.709
2.563
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
Great post Ojin.

There is far greater room for individuals to succeed in a society with a solid welfare system - unemployment benefits, minimum wage, public healthcare, state funded education etc. - because those things allow people to escape from situations that are beyond their control. They equalise the opportunities available to people, not the outcomes. Which surely is something those that glorify the cult of the individual should want, right? People should have the "freedom to excel". They shouldn't be trapped in poverty by where they were born, or family issues while growing up, or because they were involved in accidents beyond their control, or even because some bankers decided that being ridiculously rich wasn't enough and broke the economy meaning there are no jobs no matter how much they want to work. A system without a safety net only gives "freedom to excel" to those who luck out, not those who actually have the ability to excel.
 
  • 5
Reactions:
Status
Not open for further replies.