Collapse of the USSR

[Anichent]

I was doing some reading and somehow today I came across Cossackia and Idel-Ural as states the German's expressed interest in liberating if they defeated the USSR. I also learned that as a result the Germans had a number of Cossack, Udmurt, Mordvin, Tatar, etc. volunteers fighting for them.

Even more surprising was that the United States listed both Cossackia and Idel-Ural as "captive nations" held by the USSR, well into the 60s. The list otherwise only included countries like Lithuania, Ukraine, Bulgaria, North Vietnam, etc.

So these must have clearly been considered real "countries" possible to liberate at the time...but I am having trouble finding maps that actually show the territory of these captive nations. Does anyone know where to find maps or detailed descriptions?

Also while we're at it if anyone has suggestions for potential countries/nations to have be releasable from the USSR I'm open to ideas (although I have my own). Its quite a large territory and I think it'd be fun to mod in its (and Russia's) total collapse and disintegration.

Ideas?

 

[imvdm]

Actually even at the time this list was made, many within the ranks of US intelligence called it a list of fantasy.

 

[Lither]

The US did mostly recycle Nazi propaganda about the Union doing the time period.
Hey, if it worked...

 

[Anichent]

Well Idel-Ural actually existed for a time when it tried to rebel in the early 1900s. So that's not a fantasy.
The other countries on the old US list are Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Armenia, East Germany....not exactly fantasies? Every single country on that list is independent today except Tibet, Idel-Ural, and Cossackia so I'd hardly believe the whole list was characterized as a fantasy.

Anyway mostly since a breakdown of the USSR in a mod would be a fantasy, this is what I can come up with being as generous as I can creating Republic with anywhere from 30-90+% non-Russian majorities (not counting the lower Caucasus and the obvious borders of Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, etc.). Although maybe Yakutia could expand eastward a bit more. This is based on the populations and territorial claims of the peoples on the map, and I threw in a hypothetical Cossackia just for fun. Everything else (light green) is pretty solid Russian majority so I don't know how one might handle the awkward long shape short of breaking it up into 4 different countries.

Hopefully there's people who have other ideas or who notice mistakes I've made or something.

Spoiler

 

[Loke]

I was doing some reading and somehow today I came across Cossackia and Idel-Ural as states the German's expressed interest in liberating if they defeated the USSR. I also learned that as a result the Germans had a number of Cossack, Udmurt, Mordvin, Tatar, etc. volunteers fighting for them.

Even more surprising was that the United States listed both Cossackia and Idel-Ural as "captive nations" held by the USSR, well into the 60s. The list otherwise only included countries like Lithuania, Ukraine, Bulgaria, North Vietnam, etc.

So these must have clearly been considered real "countries" possible to liberate at the time...but I am having trouble finding maps that actually show the territory of these captive nations. Does anyone know where to find maps or detailed descriptions?

Also while we're at it if anyone has suggestions for potential countries/nations to have be releasable from the USSR I'm open to ideas (although I have my own). Its quite a large territory and I think it'd be fun to mod in its (and Russia's) total collapse and disintegration.

Ideas?

Interesting idea.

 

[yonderTheGreat]

This kind of reminds me of the map of "if every independence movement in North America had succeeded". Good fun.

Minor quibble, but I wouldn't label much east of the Bothnian Sea as "Lappland". Maybe name it after the Sami people or something along those lines.

I'm not sure Nenetsia shouldn't be part of Russia. They've colonized that pretty darned heavily, and successfully. I'm mildly certain that well over 50% of the people there identify as ethnic Russians, based on Demographics from the Taymyr and Yamalo--Nenets Autonomous Okrugs.

 

[hkrommel]

I like the idea of "Balkanizing" nations with collaboration governments, that way you don't really have to occupy them, you're seen as a liberator in many cases, and you keep them too weak to be a threat. The Kaiserreich mod did this very well, so I'm hoping that, since such detail will unlikely be in the base game, it will be easily moddable.

 

[scroggin]

Keralia could be separate from finland as an option for a soviet break-up if finland wasnt involved in defeating Russia. You could also include armenia.

 

[aruon]

here's the wiki article on cossackia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossackia

and the short-lived Idel-Ural: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idel-Ural_State

and as a bonus, the joke that was the whole "captive nations" thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_Nations

EDI:T who the hell disagreed with this? all i did was post relevant links. actually READ before pressing the pretty red button

 

[Anichent]

Armenia and the Caucasus for sure would go in, I just didn't on that map because they were too small. I would also include Georgia, Circassia, Azerbaijan, Alania/Ossetia, Ingushetia and Chechnya aka. Vainakh Republic, etc.

The real concern I have for this idea are the provinces in HOI4. 'States' in game actually help with balkanizing Russia, but the provinces could pose a problem. In HOI3 I tried to do something similar and it was just ugly and messy because the provinces of Russia were mis-shapen and a lot of them had the wrong name (two cities next to eachother should have been hundreds of miles away and vice versa). I'd love to give people the chance to balkanize Russia if they were lucky enough to actually fully conquer the USSR, but how much is possible to mod depends on how detailed or cursory dev attention to the USSR map was.

 

[Loke]

How about Belorussia, Novgorod, Pskov, Vladimir and such?

 

[yenot]

Every single country on that list is independent today except Tibet, Idel-Ural, and Cossackia

I guess you miss Mainland China since it is still a part of the PRC, North Korea (obvious, unchanged from the day the list was created), North Vietnam (again, obvious). As for Idel-Ural and Cossacia:

and as a bonus, the joke that was the whole "captive nations" thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_Nations

Group of prominent American historians issued a statement, noting that PL 86-90 is largely based on historical misinformation and commits the United States to help some mythical "nations" such as "Cossackia" and "Idel-Ural

The map you created has one major problem: you separated a number of sparsely populated areas from regions with high population, large cities, infrastructure, etc. That especially goes for Siberia but several other count as well. They have non-Russian majority for a reason, it's not like there are large cities inhabited by Yakut or Nenets people only in those areas you separated. Ural/Caucasus ones are more viable, though most would have problems obtaining major goods for the population and none would be able to resist military invasion from the rump Russia if not guaranteed by the balkanizing force (i.e. in case of nazis doing that then falling from grace).

In fact if I were to balkanize Russia (not that I find the idea entertaining), I would dissect European part into a number of roughly equal statelets and pass Siberia to whoever has a land border in China or Japan. I am not sure that it would be too sustainable and controllable though.

 

[Anichent]

The map you created has one major problem: you separated a number of sparsely populated areas from regions with high population, large cities, infrastructure, etc. That especially goes for Siberia but several other count as well. They have non-Russian majority for a reason, it's not like there are large cities inhabited by Yakut or Nenets people only in those areas you separated.

These places are almost all already autonomous regions within Russia who would be released by someone who conquered Russia. Being able to defend themselves or being rich is hardly the concern (although I would hope resources are properly placed in game.) There are plenty of small and weak and countries in this world that exist because they have friends who will make sure they continue to exist. The benefit to this balkanization is depriving Russia of territory and resource. The theory would be that they either are puppets or have allies strong enough to conquer the USSR in the first place. Maybe it fails, maybe it doesn't...if you choose to do it and it results in messy wars and failed states, thats althistory - which is why I tend to think this mod goes best will a timeline extending mod.

But in terms of passing territory to Japan or China, thats your call if you play the game/mod. Just because these countries are options to break off Russia doesn't mean you will ever have to. Its all about increasing the possibilities/options in the game

I would never support breaking Russia proper (lets call it West Russia on my map) too much. Post-war Germany was an exception because of the Soviet-Ally control problem. I could see breaking up all of the remaining territory into like Russia, Ural Republic, Republic of South Siberia, and East Russia (names aren't important right now) but beyond that I personally think it starts getting to extreme. But thats just me. I'll remain open to what people say and maybe come up with an alternative map once I hear enough comments to help me imagine what it could look like.

Although I'll never include the extreme of Pskov, Nizhny Novgorod, Vladimir, etc. Thats just getting to extreme and too EUIV.

 

[aruon]

The map you created has one major problem: you separated a number of sparsely populated areas from regions with high population, large cities, infrastructure, etc. That especially goes for Siberia but several other count as well. They have non-Russian majority for a reason, it's not like there are large cities inhabited by Yakut or Nenets people only in those areas you separated. Ural/Caucasus ones are more viable, though most would have problems obtaining major goods for the population and none would be able to resist military invasion from the rump Russia if not guaranteed by the balkanizing force (i.e. in case of nazis doing that then falling from grace).

uhh... you DO realize i didn't MAKE that wiki page right? i just found it and linked it.