Collaborate or not to collaborate?

[kettyo]

I mean collaboration government.

What's the benefits of it compared to keeping annexed with high compliance?

I know eventually they will pump out more manpower so if you need that it's a logical step to form it.

Maybe they provide more spies but i'm not sure.

They also cancel resistance but resistance with high compliance is a non-issue anyway.

So basically only do collab goverment if starving for manpower?

Also as a side-question which countries high command and doctrines come into play in case of mixed colonial divisions (i guess the master) or in case of requested puppet/expeditionary forces (i guess producer nation)?

 

[kettyo]

Starter post corrected.

 

[Simon_9732495]

-> https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Occupation#Collaboration_government

You can do the decision with >80% compliance.

80% compliance gives you 87% of their factories. (25% (base) + 10% (reorganized workforce) + 65%*0.8 (from compliance) )
You get 75% of the facotries from a Collaboration Governement Puppet.
So considering factories it's negative.

80% compliance gives you 93% of their resources. (35% (base) + 10% (reorganized workforce) + 60%*0.8 (from compliance) )
You have to trade for ressources with the Collaboration Governement Puppet.
So considering resources it's negative.

I don't know how manpower works.

(Personal opinion: I never click this decision, because I annex everyone and everything. And will certainly not create a puppet after investing years into raising compliance.)

 

[FindFloppies]

I'll puppet the ones that have no resources, and have manpower I can use for my own templates. Keep in mind, factory slots while Annexed < factory slots when puppeted.

Country X might have 2 slots when Annexed. Collab-puppeted, it may have twice that, and give me 80% of them.

Ones I don't puppet will either have some resources, but not enough factory slots to be worth buying it back from them, and/or doesn't have much manpower.

On the other hand, if it has a pile of resources, and a ton of manpower, and factory slots, puppet it, buy the resources back and still come out ahead on the transaction. I got Vietnam in a piece deal as Italy once. Once collab puppeted, I built a full Army with Vietnam manpower, and also got more factories to use than I spent to get the resources back in my use.

Remember, using a puppet's template, *for a collab puppet*, means it's all their manpower, none of mine. No 80/20 split. Doesn't come out of my pool.

In the end, it depends on what your needs are, and what the annexed country has.

 

[Toybasher]

-> https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Occupation#Collaboration_government

You can do the decision with >80% compliance.

80% compliance gives you 87% of their factories. (25% (base) + 10% (reorganized workforce) + 65%*0.8 (from compliance) )
You get 75% of the facotries from a Collaboration Government Puppet.
So considering factories it's negative.

80% compliance gives you 93% of their resources. (35% (base) + 10% (reorganized workforce) + 60%*0.8 (from compliance) )
You have to trade for resources with the Collaboration Government Puppet.
So considering resources it's negative.

I don't know how manpower works.

(Personal opinion: I never click this decision, because I annex everyone and everything. And will certainly not create a puppet after investing years into raising compliance.)

In terms of resources, a collaboration government gives "+100% extra trade for overlord" and "-90% overlord trade cost"

Pretty sure this gives you much more resources per factory, (something like 80 per factory instead of 8) but does anyone know if this can give more resources than the country physically has? I think I remember reading somewhere you can exploit this to squeeze a crap-ton of extra resources because apparently puppets have magical atomizer beams that can clone resources, but only for the overlord. (I.E. if they only have 1 rubber like Ethiopia and you collab them, can you get more than 1 rubber if you then trade with them?)

For factories you get 75% civs and mils. I know of a strategy where you max out the territory's factories (I.E. fill their building slots up completely) and then release them as a collaboration government puppet. While they can't build any more normally, they still have access to the generic focus tree which gives 4 civs and 3 mils via the industrial focuses. No idea if you get dockyard output.

 

[BeauNiddle]

Pretty sure this gives you much more resources per factory, (something like 80 per factory instead of 8) but does anyone know if this can give more resources than the country physically has? I think I remember reading somewhere you can exploit this to squeeze a crap-ton of extra resources because apparently puppets have magical atomizer beams that can clone resources, but only for the overlord. (I.E. if they only have 1 rubber like Ethiopia and you collab them, can you get more than 1 rubber if you then trade with them?)

I've not specifically checked but I'm fairly certain they don't magic resources out of thin air. I play as UK with Malaya giving me 80 resources per factory but that 80 is capped by the resources they own (so improving the infrastructure gives me more, them being invaded by Japan gives me less)

 

[FindFloppies]

I know of a strategy where you max out the territory's factories (I.E. fill their building slots up completely) and then release them as a collaboration government puppet.

Except, maxing them out while annexed will still leave them slots when puppeted. Core vs non-core number of slots.

 

[Spelaren]

I wish you could choose which states you want to make a compliance puppet out of...

 

[Reman]

Comparing collaboration governments to regular occupations at high compliance:
+Require no garrison
+Have no compliance drop nor resistance gain from government in exile
+Get to tap into their full manpower through puppet templates (especially helpful for fascists, which have really bad default puppets)
+Get all their build slots
+Have a generic focus tree which can give them free factories/resources
+Get to keep them in peace conferences for free
-Only get 75% of their MIL/CIV factories
-Get no dockyards at all
-Have to buy resources which gives autonomy, which will need to be dealt with in longer games
-Some resources can be traded away to third parties

There are other points, but these are the main ones. The best part of collab govs is that you get to tap into their manpower pool before getting a peace conference, which can be very helpful in lots of scenarios.

 

[AnssiA]

I like collaborating small nations early. You won't really get anything right away, but that land was worthless anyways, but in few years the new CG will take focuses that give free factories. (I also like to release minors in 1936 for that reason. For example Japan starts with one annexed region that have no resources or factories and 10% compliance. Better release it as puppet and eventually get 1-2 free factories.).

Also remember that with CG you get 75% factories, while high compliances gives 80%+ BUT with CG your puppet does get the remaining 25%, while with annexing no one benefits from the remaining 15-20%.

For larger nations whether or not to create the CG depends solely on the manpower - do you need it or not?

 

[FindFloppies]

Also remember that with CG you get 75% factories, while high compliances gives 80%+ BUT with CG your puppet does get the remaining 25%, while with annexing no one benefits from the remaining 15-20%.

Don't forget that the annexed country with 3 slots, that you get all of, when puppeted may very well have 6 slots, and you get 4 of those, and the manpower, too.
Annexed slots <> Puppeted/core slots.

Also, I don't necessarily agree with no reason to puppet the big ones, except manpower.

Go play Fascist or Communist France, and see how many factories your puppets are giving you after a while, from all those possessions. I routinely get more from the puppets than I can build on the annexed spaces they now occupy.

EDIT2: As far as autonomy: Just go build a factory or two in open slots if they exist, and that'll negate some of that autonomy, and you'll get some of that back anyway.

 

[kettyo]

Thank you guys all for the great feedback! Especially big respect to Reman for the comprehensive summary!!

 

[kettyo]

One more thought came to my mind...

Do you lose factory efficiency when you form collaboration government and the factories are rearranged?

It might be another factor for decision if you do.

 

[MechaThumper]

Another thing to remember is that collab governments inherit their tags research, spirits and national focuses. So if you are releasing collab government late game say like in africa you might lose resources and building slots as when you occupy them they would have had the bonus slots from research that gets lost when you collab. Same thing goes for resources. On the flip side if done early they should be able to keep up a little with research and since they get the generic focus tree they can get a lot of free civs and mils from the national focuses.

You definately want to be careful with a collab india as the main benefits of a collab government are manpower and the indian spirits will make it lose 69% of it.

However, ias an addition to the above, the manpower you receive from a collab is dependent not on your own conscription laws but on the collab governments. So if India manages to take scraping the barrel before or after you'll easily get 30+ million manpower from them despite the spirits, and over 100 million from china and not get hit with the factory production malus if you dont go past extensive conscription.

 

[FindFloppies]

Another thing to remember is that collab governments inherit their tags research, spirits and national focuses. So if you are releasing collab government late game say like in africa you might lose resources and building slots as when you occupy them they would have had the bonus slots from research that gets lost when you collab. Same thing goes for resources. On the flip side if done early they should be able to keep up a little with research and since they get the generic focus tree they can get a lot of free civs and mils from the national focuses.

Don't forget that annexed slots <> puppeted/core slots. So, that place with 4 slots that you built factories on, when collab government comes, may have 8 slots, and will give you 3/4 of them. And you didn't even have to build them.

I just laugh if I'm Fascist France and watch the factories (and the free garrisons) flow in...

 

[Spelaren]

Another thing to remember is that collab governments inherit their tags research, spirits and national focuses. So if you are releasing collab government late game say like in africa you might lose resources and building slots as when you occupy them they would have had the bonus slots from research that gets lost when you collab. Same thing goes for resources. On the flip side if done early they should be able to keep up a little with research and since they get the generic focus tree they can get a lot of free civs and mils from the national focuses.

You definately want to be careful with a collab india as the main benefits of a collab government are manpower and the indian spirits will make it lose 69% of it.

However, ias an addition to the above, the manpower you receive from a collab is dependent not on your own conscription laws but on the collab governments. So if India manages to take scraping the barrel before or after you'll easily get 30+ million manpower from them despite the spirits, and over 100 million from china and not get hit with the factory production malus if you dont go past extensive conscription.

Collab india has no negative spirits.

 

[kettyo]

Collab india has no negative spirits.

That might be an oversight though. Being a collaborator won't make your society not deeply agrarian by a spell

 

[kettyo]

My question's still up. Will you lose factory efficiency when you form collab?

 

[Reman]

Collab india has no negative spirits.

When I put India into a collab government, they definitely still had the 69% reduction to manpower. However, they didn't have India's old restriction of being unable to increase conscription beyond Volunteer Only when they were a puppet.

 

[FindFloppies]

My question's still up. Will you lose factory efficiency when you form collab?

Ask ten people get ten different answers. Save before allowing the collab, and try both ways, and see.

My answer is I'll take the short term hit and take the collab. It'll get it back and more in a bit.

YMMV.

EDIT: I don't puppet all of them, but most of them. I have a French (communist) game currently where my puppets, no manpower contribution from me, are garrisoning all my ports as well as theirs, and their key points as well.