Cold War Expansion/Full Game/Mod?

[agentgb]

Personally i am gagging for a cold war anything, full game perhaps ideally, an expansion for hoi would just be has good, and failing all else, i hope a modder can scratch somthing together?

I'm quite curious to see if there is much support for it? or if it really is just a pie in sky sort of thing.

There was some discussion going on in this thread about it:

Spoiler

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...sed-this-year-confirmed-by-reddit-ama.910149/

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/477sfq/we_are_paradox_development_studio_creators_of/d0avqg6

podcat2Paradox Development Studio
Speaking for myself (as I bet everyone will have different opinions) - the cold war... or prehistoric

In order to preserve this excellent trinket of information: I will post it here. But seem's just like Victoria 3, it really depends on how much it's wanted, if they are going to make it.

I'd like to think i could win people over for why this is such a great time period, but then i'm honestly not sure if other people will have a fellow interest in the time period has i do. After all some may wish to see a Victoria 3 before all else anyway, and that i could still get behind.

But for the sake of science, agree/disagree or put in your 2cent, since i'm guessing if there is a demand for it, they may make it, and i haven't seen many "good" cold war grand strategy games selling, so seems to be a niche in the market, with either little demand, or to controversial a subject to cover.

My own idea's for such a game are in the thread i listed earlier, were i do expand into further detail, will add some of them below in a spoiler also, but did go into further detail in the other thread. i understand some of this is already possible, but have listed it below anyway.

Spoiler

Missle interceptors - to counter nuclear missles when the cold war goes hot.
Proxy wars - fighting secretly on behalf of minor nations
Military Advisors - increasing or modernising a minor nations military
War Exhaustion/Dissent Especially for Unjust Wars. - Would work alongside Proxy wars, if a major power is trying to be up on a minor
Double Agents/Defectors - improve the spy games, stealing tech,have spies betray you
Selling arms - like hoi3
Some form of economy to make sanctions worthwhile or the arms race
Race into space & the moon
Nod to the roswell landings, (comet sighted becomes ufo sighted "the economy you fools"
Expanded Tech Tree - perhaps when you reach 1950 a new tab of techs/focus trees become available and so forth.
Wetwork & propaganda by spys
Victoria two element of building factories or propaganda outlets in other countries. to help modernise or brainwash/spread dissent

Ideas shamelessly robbed from other users for future reference:

Spoiler

They should have tied geographical losses, land, sea, and air losses; and strategic/logistic bombing damage to dissent or war-weariness (declining in severity by these types). This dissent/WW should then have also been tied into various actions, negative modifiers, or restrictions to the suffering nation, depending on the government type and policies.

Spoiler: Problems with HOI4 System

Missiles
Would require a mirror version of the airwar, or some form of seperation so that Missiles are treated seperately and can be understood by the ai when detecting them differences between missiles and aircraft. Unless done in a very abstracted form, from which the MAD element plays a background role, with world tension being at the forefront, and when world tension gets past breaking point, one can just imagine that nuclear war has broken out and it's game over.

Spy System:


Diplomacy System:
May be requiring diplomatic options more suited to the time period

Economical System:
Elements like Cash would need to be brought back, perhaps with upkeep for units and preforming certain diplomatic/coup/proxy actions.

 

[agentgb]

reserved: For collecting idea's

Spoiler: The Game Of MAD, ABM & ICBM

MAD (mutually assured destruction) (The game of world tension) The theory being that use of ICBM would result in MAD, thus a deterrence to a cold war going hot, so longs one side didn't potetnially pull to far ahead in this arms race.

Reflected in game terms: Penalty to world tension if advances are made to far ahead of time in this area, this is true to both offensive and defensive capabilities that threatens to upset the status quo of MAD. The idea of a cold war game or mod, is not to essentially blow each other to smithereens, but continue to push your luck has far as possible futhering the interest of yourself and allies in order to claim hegemony with geopolitical outmaneuvering. Although all out nuclear war should be an option mechanical wise, if it does happen imo that is a game over to an extent, depending personnally on how you percieve it, even if you do wish to continue.

Declaring Stockpiles: Nuclear Superpowers should declare there stockpiles from time to time, this is to keep the balance of world tension in check, so in some circumstances it may be in your interest to slighty over/under exaggerate stockpiles at a cost of political points, such stockpiles may be confirmed by spy action although difficult. Will need to research this further:

Fallout Bunkers: Built like forts, they can offer reassurance to the general public, reducing dissent has world tension rises.

Testing Nuclear Weapons:
Will allow you to fire of a nuke in friendly terrain, giving a boost to research of further development of your nuclear warheads, that can be studied by your scientist, will affect world tensions, and world standing among neutral nations, so it's only to be used sparingly in order to perhaps catch up in your research or attempt to jump a bit further ahead.

ABM (anti-ballistic missile)
ICBM (ICBM) Intercontinental Ballistic Missile
PAR (Perimeter Acquisition Radar) used to detect ICBM then sent to MSR
MSR (Missile Site Radar) used to track and hit back at ICBM

Reflected in game terms:
ABM: A unique type of airfield, from which it can be launched, making stockpiling & distributing to allies these missiles important. Although the cost/ratio is questionable until very late cold war. Treaties would see the limit of these being buildable due to maintaining the status quo of MAD. With ABM mostly being used around cities of importance or launch silo's.
ICBM: A unique type of airfield acting has a launch pad, making stockpiling these missiles important. Membership of the nuclear club is somewhat restricted, new members attempting developing weapons or world powers attempting to give them can trigger a diplomatic crisis, rise in world tension, even war of intervention/preventions (especially depending on the countries regime & standing among other world leaders) possibly with involvement from the UN making such wars world tension free.
PAR/MSR: A Radar that can be built & upgraded throughout the years to show improvements to targetting & detection

Spoiler: Proxy Wars / Civil Wars Of Ideology / Wars Of Intervention / Coups

Proxy Wars (Covert):
The process of fighting a covert war with potentially limited boots on the ground in the form of special forces/willing volunteers(spanish civil war) so has not be fount out, or supporting by other means like the supply of weapons or military advisors. The diplomatic game would involve making & denying claims of any military involvement, interference, bringing such actions to the public & UN attention in a bid to thwart proxy action at the cost of political points.

Civil Wars Of Ideology & War Of Intervention:
Examples like that of the Spanish/Korean Civil war, The aggressor of such a civil war would give way for a power to invoke it's interest to intervene if the defender is under the protection of said power or shares a border and deems hostilities against there interest. Depending on the situation, powers can get invovled by sending 'volunteers' whom are going on there own accord perhaps in situations were no power can lay a real justified interest (spanish civil war) or in the proxy fashion (Bosnian Serb War) were russian volunteers travelled to help fight along with fellow slavics. In the case of the Korean War, since North Korea was the aggressor, Allied nations would be able to intervene at a lower political point cost, but in the case that north korea was dramatically losing despite best efforts from Soviets & Chinese to support them in a proxy fashion, the neighbour china can invoke an intervention (but mostly in a status quo fashion, making any actual victory costly political point wise if seeking to annex on behalf of korea) of there own due to there interest of potentially having a border with a democractic korea at a political point cost. In the event that both are nuclear powers taking part in the war, a timer would begin that if no diplomatic resolution can be fount, the possibility of a nuclear war becomes a realization. During this phase world leaders/UN will begin to apply tension to both sides to seek a diplomatic resolution. If one of the powers like that of china whom didn't become a nuclear power until later after the korean war, no timer would exist, but if the war continues for a long duration political point cost for adding war goals will increase making a status quo a cheaper option naturally, but may be beneficial to keep the war raging for as long as possible to hurt the economy of a nation.

Coups:
The concept of overthrowing a goverment to benefit your nation economically, through similar ideology and potentially leading to a favourable alliance, or creating turmoil or havoc within a region to destablize it turning it into a failed state for many years. Such actions would cost cash, intelligence points and time, and failure or being fount out preforming such actions would have repercussions, that could potentially lead to said country harbouring resentment, initiating terrorist attacks, or alligning with other enemies.

Spoiler: Diplomacy Game

Drawing The Redline:
Expensively using power projection & political points in defensive diplomatic actions to halt actions that intrude on an interest of a nation. E.g Cuban missile crisis. Power projection could perhaps be a rare point system that if used affects your world standing, since your essentially rattling the nuclear sabre or another world war, perhaps turning neutral nations against you and more neutral allowing them to veto/vote against your actions in the UN, if done to often, political points diminsh or increase action cost, and could eventually turn you into a hermit country while causing mass destabilization within the country leading to revolution and missile slio's becoming inoperable due to a rise in consciousness, Attacking countries undergoing such turmoil will cause them to reunite under one flag against external forces, unless via proxy action. While in hermit state heavy handed measure can be done invovling secret police, propaganda, closing borders, but can steadily lead to going bankrupt or outside spy actions of coup more likely.

Expelling Journalist:
Will get rid of all NGO currently within your country making your own state owned media outlets the dominate outlets for propaganda, at a cost of political points, spy points, dissent and world standing.

United Nations (UN):
During times of crisis of other nations, the UN can potentially intervene either forcing a status quo (white peace/ceasefire) or intervention militarily. The results of such actions will come down to a conference where all members of the UN will vote on the appropriate action given the evidence, sometimes personal bias friendships, and public outcry if the situation/conflict has been ongoing without any resolution in sight. This can potentially be a political point sink during times of war/turmoil were things can get heated in an effort to resolve the situation mostly meaning that the country that sinks the most points in, and has the most support will probably fair well, given that they aren't the aggressor in the war and haven't already spent a bunch of political points elsewhere. This means if you are the aggressor and are trying to defend your actions at the UN, plently of political points will be needed to buy yourself time or justify the actions taking place.

Acknowledging Your Support For Another Countries Revolution:
Increases potential for more resistance within said country, and chances to preform successful proxy/spy war although at a higher political point cost.

Accusing/Denouncing another Nation of Falseflags/Proxy War/Coups
World leaders can accuse other nations of undermining other nations whom may be conducting falseflags/coups/proxy wars, but will require that journalist be present in the target country were suspect action is taking place in order to gather evidence for public scrutiny & the UN council so that further action can be considered. It will cost some political points, with a further process for allowing UN members to intervene diplomatically or militarily on behalf of the nation to force a status quo. Accusing the target country could endanger the jorunalist there, which will increase there chances of being detected and deported, depending on the countries laws, potentially going missing. Jorunalist will need to be maintained in the target country throughout any process invovling the UN.

International Sanctions:
Can be used has tool to apply pressure on another country has a form of punishment for wrong doings, and lifted also has a form of political leverage in order for a country to make conessions, e.g returning land etc. It can also be a form of extended psychological warfare utilised by nation states through diplomatic means. Will cost political power and affect all nations economically depending on whom there trade partners are.

Diplomatic sanctions
Economic sanctions
Military sanctions
Sport sanctions

Pressurization Of Other Allied Nations:
Nations can pressurise other fellow allies to close ranks on certain foreign policies in a effort to show a united front, so as to exert pressure on another nation to reinforce a status quo without resulting to war. The penalty for this being that since allies may be forced to follow suit against there interest, a slight penalty to world standing among the allies in question will increase, with it increasing/decreasing over time on an individual bases per allie to convey that different nations may be buckling under the pressure themselves economical wise that may lead to public opinon/different eleted goverment wishing to lift sanctions depending on there own interest and current standing with that nation. It could also be used to apply pressure to allies to get involved in wars that could affect relations slighty, but more so war exhaustion that can end potentially in allies loss of faith in the war, with proxy wars and intelligence being negatively affected by enemy journalist.

Spoiler: Spy Game

False Flags/Provocation/Provokatsiya:
The concept of triggering a flashpoint has to provoke a reaction from a nation, either by black op jobs through sabatoge blamed on other nations, frabricated political scandal character assassination in order to attempt to have a cabinet ministers removed from office. This would cost political points, cash, jounalist and spies, and will have a timer from which it's fully complete, during this time period it can be countered by denouncing such actions has falseflags, and would require jorunalist in the target country to uncover the evidence.

Wetwork:
A KGB term for snuffing off undesirables, wetwork could be used for "taking care" of jorunalist, cabinet ministers, and potentially heads of state, with the risk & difficulty being harder the further up you attempt these underhanded actions. For the success of such actions, an excellent spy network, consisting of joruanlism (learning & understanding the countries ways and networking) and Double Agents/Defectors, since to get close to such high ranking officials, only someone from the inside could successfully attempt such an action. Such actions will require a great deal of time to preform, an effort of dedicated amount of spy points, and the ability to turn a handful of enemy agent to get the required intel. A penalty to failure can result in a large sum of political points in order to counter the effects. Targeting heads of state or cabinet minister could be a quicker way to start a coup, given they may have to be replace by other affiliated political party members.

Double Agents/Defectors:
Defectors are agents that are no longer believing in the ideology or righteous of there country and seek to now undermine it. Although a defector can indeed be a double agent, sent to defect in order to worm his ways into any intrigue that may be occuring. Agents can be captured, and potentially offered to work has doubled agents, while business elites/oligarchs could potentially be double agents that have grown disenfranchised with there goverment since it is no longer in there interest.

In game terms: Since an abstraction of this would need to be implemented, perhaps the best option would be that if the country is suffering national unity problems, double agents will slighty be more obtainiable but would require that a spy(handler) & a jorunalist be maintained within a country for a long period of time and would cost spy points aswell has cash to fund such covert operations. They would run a higher risk of being caught if the nation has high unity and can potentially defect if the laws within the country are less authoritarian. In the case of the red scare, those supporting the communist party will be more likely to defect due to the witch hunt effect, and in game terms would mean if your being extremely heavy handed to root out and diminsh an ideology within your state, the likely hood of getting defectors/double agents will also increase.

Propaganda/Journalism:
Journalist work some what like NGO's(spies in hoi3) within another country, that are there to gather evidence on human right violations, proxy wars, falseflags, political scandals, networking with political activist increasing the chance of a ideology swing, and undermining the goverment. They can be used passively to protect your own nation to counter the message enemy journalist may be trying to provocate, with the defence effect being stronger when you aren't at war thus requring more state owned jorunalist pushing a message at home during times of war. Journalist working abroad collecting evidence on enemy action will endanger themselves once a nation uses them to accuse another nation of underhanded actions. This will result in less replinishment of journalist and thus the ability to continue to efficiently maintain a high level of jorunalist in the target country, with a cooldown effect before more journalist are willing to work in said country.

Intimidation of Journalists:
Journalist can be intimidated to leave your country, or that of a target country, effectively attacking the propaganda machine itself, although will slighty affect your world standing or that of the country they reside in that you are trying to protect, potentially affecting them chances at a UN conference, but if the evidences will be damning and you can finish your objective before any UN judgement can be made, it can be a worthwhile fuction of spies, will cost spy points.

Maskirovka/Deception:
The art of deception, although historically used in ww2 to mislead enemies on combat strength in areas, it has also proved crtiical to covering up proxy wars by misleading nations to whom is the culprit of such actions. A good way of not being fount out and in turn allowing for successful proxy war, mending or supporting failed coups to be conducted by pushing your message to the world. A trinkle of spy points & political points will need to be maintained in the area of question to reduce world tension and improve your standing among other nations in the UN in response to accusations by other world leaders so that countries can be won over before the voting process continues.

Secret Police:
Is the ability to maintain control of a populace through forceful means, increasing national unity but at the expensive of spy points and cash due to high corruption. If the country starts to run a deficient in cash, the affects of the secret police will diminsh with the boost to national unity decreasing. Allowing for an opening of obtaining double agents.

Spoiler: Military/Rebels

Volunteers:
It is practically a donation of manpower, that could be taken from modifiers, with democracys allowing for 1% (authoritarian goverments 5%) of a total population that are alligned to the target regions goverment in question.
E.g
Spanish Civil War
Germany has 80% support for the NSDAP, with a total manpower of military serving adults of 1million. Which means 800,000 support the NSDAP, from that 5% of that manpower would be allowed to be gifted, resulting in 40,000.

Special Forces:
Elite units that can act has unofficial boots on the ground & in the sky and allow you to actually play an unofficial role in the outcome of battles, they are limited to a few diviisons, 4 being the max and leading to the likely chance of being fount out that you have proxy forces, 1 division being the safer option. In the case of Jet fighters/bombers, 6 planes max will be the threshold, possbily making 1 ground division and 1-2 fighters/bombers a chance of being uncovered 40%-50%

Military Advisors:
Sending Military advisors/liaisons to another country in order to boost there military doctrines, thus improving there armed forces. It can be done during peace time and while at war, and will cost an upkeep of political points, cash and your own ability to research your own military doctrines, slowing down the pace depending on the amount of military advisors in the target country, but will also improve relations with the target country. Experience points can be gained during a war from this, since military advisors will be learning aswell, and so further improvements to military equipment at home can be adapted to better suit the conditions should intervention later be required.

Military Upkeep:
Have units potentially cost cash in upkeep, or to the latter effect factories. Depending on type of goverment will dictate upkeep cost, but also affect technology depedning on goverment to promote that some goverments are willing to promote industry/captalisim in relation to innovation.

Spoiler: Economical Game

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Spoiler: Period Immersion & Cold War Lingo

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[Qatlas]

I suport this !!
First Victoria 3 and then HOI4 standalone expansion for cold war era

 

[VibiusPanzer]

Don't worry it is happening. I have been working on the design for the past year. There will be 7 pop types each with various levels of satisfaction that you have to try and balance against each other without triggering a coup or revolution. Politics obviously will be quite detailed with many laws sinilar to the democracy series if you have played that. And i think I have figured out a way to finally have a fully functioning economy too. Originally the design was for a cold war mod and that is still the intention (1946-1995) but I started to realise the cold war can end early. What if the USA breaks up into civil war and the warsaw pact conquers western europe? What if Persia becomes the new superpower and leader of the free world? What if imperislism remains strong and african nations don't get their independence? Lots of possible what ifs which are plausible in a paradox grand strategy. So I have realised the better option is to focus less on the cold war and more on geopolitical grand strategy that begins on January 1st 1946. Ideas are welcome.

 

[Shad ite]

I too want a mod at least

 

[agentgb]

Don't worry it is happening. I have been working on the design for the past year. There will be 7 pop types each with various levels of satisfaction that you have to try and balance against each other without triggering a coup or revolution. Politics obviously will be quite detailed with many laws sinilar to the democracy series if you have played that. And i think I have figured out a way to finally have a fully functioning economy too. Originally the design was for a cold war mod and that is still the intention (1946-1995) but I started to realise the cold war can end early. What if the USA breaks up into civil war and the warsaw pact conquers western europe? What if Persia becomes the new superpower and leader of the free world? What if imperislism remains strong and african nations don't get their independence? Lots of possible what ifs which are plausible in a paradox grand strategy. So I have realised the better option is to focus less on the cold war and more on geopolitical grand strategy that begins on January 1st 1946. Ideas are welcome.

ahh thats excellent! i hope you don't mind, but i'm going to gather a bunch of notes, and keep adding it to this, perhaps it may give some ideas? but i so badly want a cold war mod, i can't really do any modding, so it's really neat to see there are people out there with a interest in the period, one thing i would suggest though, do you think that the cold war was more a game of world tension? perhaps each side was pushing there luck has far as they could without actually causing MAD. That would be my concept for a cold war mod, but i do like the idea of the 7 pops when playing the coup/rev game!

Fully fuctioning economy made me wet my pants! i know this may be asking alot, but if possible try to keep multiplayer in mind! some problems with these big juicy mods that they only work mostly for SP, but i still wouldn't complain! if you need any beta testers please let me know!

 

[Starfflame]

A Cold War era game is probably not going to happen -- Paradox already cancelled EvW a couple years back. It's likely they would not want to approach the concept after the failure of EvW.

A mod could be possible, though it would not be nearly the quality of what PDox would publish as a standalone game (Much better than trying a cold war mod with EUIV, though).

 

[agentgb]

@Starfflame

Yea i was actually looking forward to East Versus West, not sure why the project failed?

hmmm yeah there is alot of the mechanics already there to some extent in EU4, i have noticed, minus some important things like airwar and some other stuff, but it's got the rest, i know it's potentially a long shot that paradox would make a cold war game/expansion, but i think it depends on the demand for it, so i guess i'm kinda doing there market research for them, but at the very least, i hope if i can pull together alot of research/ideas, any modders wishing to take on this venture, it may make there life a bit easier? Not that i claim to be an expert on the period, so hopefully i will be corrected if my research/concept is wrong in places.

 

[Calders]

I don't think that HOI is the right starting point for a cold war game (I'm not sure any of the Paradox games are). Such a game really needs to be built from the ground up using only the engine, i.e. it needs to be a separate game. I think EvW showed how hard this is, and it's something that really needs to be taken on by Paradox themselves if its going to happen.

 

[Rudolf Hessbart]

Hey, we from the Reform Mod team are going to make a Great Campaign mod for HoI4 when we are finnished. If you are interested to contribute with ideas or codes you are welcome to join us Send me a PM

 

[VibiusPanzer]

i know this may be asking alot, but if possible try to keep multiplayer in mind! some problems with these big juicy mods that they only work mostly for SP, but i still wouldn't complain! if you need any beta testers please let me know!

I am designing it specifically with multiplayer in mind. I think it will be alot more fun with 36 human players. But single player will also work well too

 

[agentgb]

I am designing it specifically with multiplayer in mind. I think it will be alot more fun with 36 human players. But single player will also work well too

Excellent! have you got a thread for ideas btw? Would like to throw in some input! Although i am throwing in a bunch at the top there if it helps? But imo, you can never have enough cold war threads.

 

[VibiusPanzer]

I have 3 powerpoints as my design documents. One for diplomacy, another for economy and another for politics. I might start a steam group to discuss modding if you want to join? Add me: VibiusPanzer (i'm the one with a wolf and snow avatar)

 

[VibiusPanzer]

I can confirm work has begun