COILs, and Coil lore exploration. Merged discussion

[Icewraith]

How many chevrons can a Locust M get with an optimized pilot in clear terrain and still fire weapons?

 

[stjobe]

How many chevrons can a Locust M get with an optimized pilot in clear terrain and still fire weapons?

Evasion chevrons are generated at moving 70, 100, 130, 160, 190, and 220 meters (defined in CombatGameConstants.json). The max move distance for a LCT-M is 210 meters, so five should be the max while still being able to fire.

Edit: Forgot that Sure Footing adds an extra evasive charge: Six it is.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Evasion chevrons are generated at moving 70, 100, 130, 160, 190, and 220 meters (defined in CombatGameConstants.json). The max move distance for a LCT-M is 210 meters, so five should be the max while still being able to fire.

Edit: Forgot that Sure Footing adds an extra evasive charge: Six it is.

Quite true, Good Sir. :bow: I just had to test it out as I had not yet found a Mech/MechWarrior that could move and build up 6 “Purple” COIL Damage Chevrons.

But if the 6-tons for a COIL-Large does prove true, then that particular Locust would look like this:

The PPC+ is also a six ton weapon, making a COIL-Large Locust just as much a glass cannon as the Locust-1M. You can get that 6th “Purple” Chevron of COIL Large Damage but at a substantial cost in Armor.

A COIL-Large Spider also sees 6 “Purple” Chevrons of COIL-Large Damage, but with substantially more Internal Structure and Armor, while sacrificing its Jump Jets and Medium Lasers.

 

[Kereminde]

But if the 6-tons for a COIL-Large does prove true, then that particular Locust would look like this:

"Oh god he saw me he saw me he saw me he saw me, hope he doesn't hit hope he doesn't hit hope he- CRAP! Ejecting!"

 

[44th MAC|Bonsai]

this really is a glass cannon, maybe it get's a second shot, but that's it. If i have seen this right, the amount of heat is massive and results in a shutdown, right? so the legs are gone with the second shot. No need to add armor ;D

 

[Prussian Havoc]

this really is a glass cannon, maybe it get's a second shot, but that's it. If i have seen this right, the amount of heat is massive and results in a shutdown, right? so the legs are gone with the second shot. No need to add armor ;D

If it fires a second time, without cool-down and only has the base 10 Heat Sinks... it just may depend on the Guts of the MechWarrior.

 

[44th MAC|Bonsai]

Ah ok, I don't really have the heat values at hand. Still, high risk of shutdown, too high for my taste. I still think the COIL is a cool addition to the game, but maybe not the large one on a light mech. I don't like my mechs to be roasted, but the enemy's!

But I think i'll have some fun putting them on 5/8 55- and 60-tonners, maybe even the faster assaults can profit, mostly the banshee. If the COIL-S is a support weapon, that offers some really nice opportunities for melee designs. The Punshee might come back with a vengeance

 

[ronhatch]

Here's the issue. The game format allows for both PvE against a woefully stupid AI or for PvP against a human adversary that can actually use their brain. This COIL weapon allows for very fast mechs to unload a damage spike of up to 280 damage, or nearly three (3) AC 20 rounds to a single location at what appears to be a normal medium laser range. For all we know, it might have a greater range since it's being compared directly to a Large Laser for base tonnage and initial heat. By making this thing a part of the base game it IS going to have a severe impact for either format of the game. My simple question is - "why?". What problem or need does the existing game have that this homebrew custom weapon address? Does this remedy for the perceived need or problem correctly fix what's wrong?

If the topic in question is one of "Light and small Medium mechs need a means of staying relevant in the later game", Flamers and now Inferno missiles coupled with stacked small laser spam already address this topic for PvP without breaking lore or the existing table top game source. To be quite honest, those weapons when used against a stupid AI will have the same results. I'm not seeing the hard evidence of why this homebrew was needed other than as a gimmick that made it past an evening's spitball idea stage.

FWIW, there's absolutely no way that COILs are going to be available in skirmish/PvP in an unmodded game any more than current LosTech is.

 

[ronhatch]

And that's where I think our streams have been crossed, so to speak; I am absolutely not talking about getting out more energy than you put in, only to regain some energy that would otherwise have been lost, adding that to the "normal" charge of the weapon to "overcharge" it - more the further/faster you move.


XKCD is great, but there's no 53 here.

Doesn't work though... if the energy is recoverable at all, you could recover it and then put it into more movement... which would in turn just mean that the overall system was converting more of the heat energy from the reactor into kinetic energy moving the limbs. The lost energy is called waste for a reason.

Also, energy put into movement is not available for storage regardless of any "kinetic battery" you may have. The farther you move, the more energy you used up. There's absolutely no way to get around that core issue. If you put the movement into a flywheel of some kind, you'd be storing it... but you have to choose what kind of movement you're going to use the energy for.

So when moving further gives you more energy available, that's card number 53 in the analogy.

In any case, this will likely be my last comment on the issue... I had to walk away from it for a while already.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

FWIW, there's absolutely no way that COILs are going to be available in skirmish/PvP in an unmodded game any more than current LosTech is.

The ATLAS II-SBA (AS7-D-HT) and its LosTech ER Large Lasers, Medium Pulse Lasers and Double Heat Sinks is indeed available in Skirmish/PvP. It may cost you 101.88m Cbills in the “Unlimited” category of PvP but you can drop with four of them. :bow:

 

[Curuno]

I find it hilarious when my errant PPC Blast nails a Max Evasion Locust who just happened to be standing behind my target. Couldn’t have hit him if I tried!!! : )

Had pretty much the same experience with an AC20 that vaporized a jumping Firestarter when I was trying to hit the medium (Think it was a Crab?) directly in front of it. Was like "Well that works too, I guess"

 

[ronhatch]

The ATLAS II-SBA (AS7-D-HT) and its LosTech ER Large Lasers, Medium Pulse Lasers and Double Heat Sinks is indeed available in Skirmish/PvP. It may cost you 101.88m Cbills in the “Unlimited” category of PvP but you can drop with four of them. :bow:

Heh.

The phrase "the exception that proves the rule" definitely comes to mind...

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Heh.

The phrase "the exception that proves the rule" definitely comes to mind...

:bow:

Adding HEAVY METAL’s COIL Weapons and Thumper (maybe even the Mech Mortar) to those weapons excluded from Vanilla BATTLETECH Skirmish and PvP is not something I had considered till now.

Like the Atlas II, the Bull Shark (its Thumper, ER Medium Lasers and Double Heat Sinks) will likely be available in Skirmish and PvP.

But any of the COIL Weapons...???

Now that I’ve had some time to think on it, I agree with you. I just don’t see it happening.

 

[Gauntlet]

Evasion should be stripped only by hits.. not misses anyway... plus, it would make more sense if Kinetic Energy weapons stripped it by destabilizing the mech after hit.. while Energy weapons shouldnt..

Evasion being stripped by hits makes sense if you consider the battle computer's recalculating trajectories etc. It could also be correlating other targeting data from other units in order to draw a better bead on the evasive mech. Hense chevrons being stripped on misses as well as hits . . .

The negative effects from firing the Coil weapons need to be commiserate with having such a huge benefit from them.

That's the problem. We don't really know what the negative effects of the weapon are going to be. Are they going to be good enough to make it a tactical decision to fire the weapon and suffer the results or are they going to be so "meh" that you fire whenever you can because it doesn't have any real effect on what's happening.

We just don't know.

Which is why we're waiting, no "waiting" seems to be too mild of a term . . hmm .. well, can't think of a better on at the moment, so . . for more information.

'Cause the heat build I remember from the video didn't seem to be too detrimental to the Flea firing it. Sure it was toasty, but not toasty enough to lay off firing the next shot if the opportunity presented itself.

You are making almost as much of an assumption as those that are assuming coils will be game breaking without seeing how it's actually implemented in the game.

I don't know about others out there but I'm not assuming it's going to be game breaking. I'm cautiously worried that it might but am waiting for more information before I settle on a decision.

Of course, there's people out there still bandying out about how this weapon is "two and a half AC/20s in strength" when we've only seen it fired once.

How is having it only been fired once counter to the damage numbers? The way the weapon got to that value is consistent. Do X and Y and Z will be the result. So whether we see the weapon fired once or a dozen times, the potential for those damage numbers remains the same.

And be honest. With those damage values being attainable, every player is doing to try their damndest to make sure that that's ALWAYS the resulting output of the weapon.

There appears to be no plausible way for this to work.

(I'm going to probably regret this)

You mean like FTL?

 

[stjobe]

How is having it only been fired once counter to the damage numbers?

Because everyone saw the 280 when the Flea was sprinting, and automatically assumed that this is this weapon's regular damage, totally ignoring that the best the Flea could do when actually firing was 160.

The way the weapon got to that value is consistent. Do X and Y and Z will be the result. So whether we see the weapon fired once or a dozen times, the potential for those damage numbers remains the same.

The potential is way lower than 280 damage; there's no way to get that number of evasion pips and still be able to fire.

And be honest. With those damage values being attainable, every player is doing to try their damndest to make sure that that's ALWAYS the resulting output of the weapon.

Here's the thing: Those damage numbers are not attainable.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Those damage numbers are not attainable... as long as a Jump does not charge a COIL Weapon.

We don’t know that a Jump doesn’t charge COIL Weapons.

But that will be one of the questions I ask in chat later today during Mitch Plays to Win.

 

[Gauntlet]

Because everyone saw the 280 when the Flea was sprinting, and automatically assumed that this is this weapon's regular damage, totally ignoring that the best the Flea could do when actually firing was 160.

Well for one, I've been basing my initial AHHHHH knee-jerk reaction off the 160 damage number 'cause that's what I saw hit.

I mean, you have to admit that 160 pnts of damage to ONE location is a lot. Right? Or am I'm completely blowing it out of proportion?

Until now, the only thing that's been able to do that is an AC/20. Which weighs 14 tons and you need at least 2 tons to make it viable. So 16 tons. Now we've got a weapon, that seemingly, only weighs 6 tons and is more than capable of producing, and/or exceeding, that damage output.

I think we've got a right to be concerned.

The potential is way lower than 280 damage; there's no way to get that number of evasion pips and still be able to fire.


Here's the thing: Those damage numbers are not attainable.

Here's the thing: We don't know that for sure. We don't know much of anything at this point. If jumping, as @Prussian Havoc has said, isn't included in the charge up mechanic, then you are correct in that high numbers aren't attainable and it's only a byproduct of using the evasion chevrons/movement in the calculations of damage. BUT, if jumping can contribute, everything changes and it may not be for the better.

 

[stjobe]

Well for one, I've been basing my initial AHHHHH knee-jerk reaction off the 160 damage number 'cause that's what I saw hit.

I mean, you have to admit that 160 pnts of damage to ONE location is a lot. Right? Or am I'm completely blowing it out of proportion?

160 damage to one location is a lot yes, but not more so than a Precise Shot can regularly obtain right now. So yes, it is a bit of blowing things out of proportion.

Until now, the only thing that's been able to do that is an AC/20. Which weighs 14 tons and you need at least 2 tons to make it viable. So 16 tons. Now we've got a weapon, that seemingly, only weighs 6 tons and is more than capable of producing, and/or exceeding, that damage output.

Or, as I said above and has said in other posts, Precise Shot.

I regularly core CTs with my 16-tube SRM++ Shadow Hawk, dealing 192 damage from 10 tons of weapons and ammo, mostly to one section (a missile or two might hit another section, but the vast majority of them hit the same location).

I think we've got a right to be concerned.

Of course, being concerned about the well-being of the game is good. But that concern might be alleviated if one looks at what can be achieved today with already existing mechanics (Precise Shot).

Here's the thing: We don't know that for sure. We don't know much of anything at this point.

That's my line And it doesn't seem to stop people from proclaiming the sky is falling, does it?

If jumping, as @Prussian Havoc has said, isn't included in the charge up mechanic, then you are correct in that high numbers aren't attainable and it's only a byproduct of using the evasion chevrons/movement in the calculations of damage. BUT, if jumping can contribute, everything changes and it may not be for the better.

If jumping is included, one single evasion chevron can be added. That's hardly "everything changes".

Here's how evasion works. There's a max that starts out at 4 chevrons, which can be increased to 6 with high piloting skill. These chevrons are filled by moving certain distances (one chevron for moving 70, 100, 130, 160, 190, and 220 meters). Jumping or sprinting adds a chevron regardless of distance travelled, but can't exceed max. Sure Footing also adds a chevron, and with this it can exceed the max number. So the absolute theoretical maximum number of evasion chevrons attainable is by a Piloting 10 pilot jumping or sprinting 220 meters or more; that will give seven evasion chevrons.

It should be noted that the speediest 'Mechs in the game, the Locust and the Spider, have a max (non-sprinting) movement of 210 meters, which isn't enough to get that final evasion chevron.

Now what would change everything is if the charge carries over so you can sprint one turn to charge the COIL, and move the next to fire it at max charge. That would be something to be concerned over.

Edit: We don't know how the COIL charges interact with jumping, but we also don't know how they interact with pilot skills like Sure Footing or the evasion increases. All we know is that it seems like there's a COIL charge generated for every evasion chevron, but that might not be true.

 

[Kereminde]

Those damage numbers are not attainable... as long as a Jump does not charge a COIL Weapon.

We don’t know that a Jump doesn’t charge COIL Weapons.

But that will be one of the questions I ask in chat later today during Mitch Plays to Win.

I'm going to ask if I can install it on my Scorpion, actually.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I'm going to ask if I can install it on my Scorpion, actually.

Vehicle-mounted COIL Weapons.


A COIL CARRIER!!!!!!!!!!!

Nooooooooo!

Now I’ll have nightmares. : (