Is that where you plan on retiring? I'm planning on being a silent backer for a very loud, very short, very Hatchy mercenary commander.
COILs, and Coil lore exploration. Merged discussion
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Is that where you plan on retiring? I'm planning on being a silent backer for a very loud, very short, very Hatchy mercenary commander.
I can do that from the comfort of a Canopian pleasure cruiser no problem
One thing that will help the COIL remain fully relevant is the range on the COIL BEAM. From the PDXCON video we know that it has more range than a Support Weapon. So at least the player’ll have some leeway when mapping movement to maximize damage along the COIL Damage Curve.
It looked like the range was about on par with a Medium Laser, which is about what I'd expect from a system like this. And I'm . . . still not sure if it will be relevant against the ever-reliable ML. (You just can't beat it for performance. Not even with Clantech.)
The BUL SHARK has ER Medium Lasers. ER Medium Lasers just may trump Medium Lasers.
Nah. The extra heat isn't as viable a tradeoff for the extra range, in my opinion. Especially in this game.
Those people aren't the developers. Their behavior has no impact on the rest of us.
And the developers modified a FLE-15, BSK-MZN, RFL-3N, and ARC-2S to show off their toys - those do not appear to come with the equipment shown in that presentation normally. (Definitely not the LB-Xs...) So can we back off the idea the developers are putting a unit in game - in regular play - which has these weapons? That's not very likely at this point, though custom-built for OpFor use in Flashpoints is much more likely.
The first presentation was a showcase. The second was actual gameplay, even if it left Connor and Eck looking worse.
Yeah, so far I have not found range for heat to be a valuable trade off in this game. The short vision ranges and corresponding need for spotting cause some interesting game play challenges, but they also substantially limit the value of range on weapons.
Here's the issue. The game format allows for both PvE against a woefully stupid AI or for PvP against a human adversary that can actually use their brain. This COIL weapon allows for very fast mechs to unload a damage spike of up to 280 damage, or nearly three (3) AC 20 rounds to a single location at what appears to be a normal medium laser range. For all we know, it might have a greater range since it's being compared directly to a Large Laser for base tonnage and initial heat. By making this thing a part of the base game it IS going to have a severe impact for either format of the game. My simple question is - "why?". What problem or need does the existing game have that this homebrew custom weapon address? Does this remedy for the perceived need or problem correctly fix what's wrong?
If the topic in question is one of "Light and small Medium mechs need a means of staying relevant in the later game", Flamers and now Inferno missiles coupled with stacked small laser spam already address this topic for PvP without breaking lore or the existing table top game source. To be quite honest, those weapons when used against a stupid AI will have the same results. I'm not seeing the hard evidence of why this homebrew was needed other than as a gimmick that made it past an evening's spitball idea stage.
Inferno missiles are another potentially huge change. I played a mod with inferno ammo available, and it trivialized salvage. Combine 3 Inferno SRM boats with a dedicated headcapper, then shut down your target and shoot it in the face.
Granted, that was a mod. Maybe inferno ammo will be heavy or fragile or confined to SRM 2 launchers. Maybe it'll be dedicated inferno launchers tht can't swap between ammo types. But whatever it is will need to be balanced very, very carefully. A medium range stun locker is game breaking.
Granted, that was a mod. Maybe inferno ammo will be heavy or fragile or confined to SRM 2 launchers. Maybe it'll be dedicated inferno launchers tht can't swap between ammo types. But whatever it is will need to be balanced very, very carefully. A medium range stun locker is game breaking.
And here's the problem with that issue. I've not seen a COIL be able to do 280 yet; it may only scale that high on a sprint or if slotted on a Locust (the current fastest unit - period). We've not seen the full range data for the COIL-L. We've not seen heat numbers for it, either, though we can tell in the Urban Biome and on the demo Flea it was about a third of a bar. And they also had to Precise Shot to make it hit, too . . .
I dunno, I don't think this weapon is as monstrously OP as it seems to be from the initial sales pitch. It doesn't feel right.
From the PDXCON Video and the COIL shot shown, a regular shot from a Gunnery 10 MechWarrior would have been at a 90% chance to hit against a Target with 2 Evasion Chevrons.
Use of Precision Strike increased the chance to hit from 90% to 95%.
And yes, it would take an 8/12 (maybe a 7/11) Mech with a Level 10 Piloting MechWarrior to “Move” his Mech and earn the full 280-COIL Damage out of a single COIL Weapon.
But as we’ve both noted elsewhere, the real advantage in COIL Weapon usage may reside in a Level 10 Piloting MechWarrior adding his two Evasion/COIL Damage Chevrons to their Heavy Mech’s 3 Movement Chevrons for a total of 5 COIL Damage “Purple” Chevrons and 200-points of Damage. And then fitting two, maybe three COIL-Larges and as many Heat Sinks as feasible on that Heavy Mech. 400 to 600 Damage in an Alpha double possibly result.
To me it is the 40 to 280 Damage Curve that even with all that we’ve forensically pulled from the PDXCON is still of concern.
Hey! At least HBS is getting pages and pages of feedback on their PDXCON Demo! : )
I went back with a Light that moved 4 Evasion Chevrons and then layered on weapons to see if I could get a best estimation of the COIL-L’s Heat.
Best as I could determine, the PDXCON HEAVY METAL-build saw a COIL-L build 60 HEAT.
(For reference, here is the pic of a just-entering-Battle, 4-Chevron Move, COIL Heat Build Bar:
)
Best as I could determine, the PDXCON HEAVY METAL-build saw a COIL-L build 60 HEAT.
(For reference, here is the pic of a just-entering-Battle, 4-Chevron Move, COIL Heat Build Bar:
)
That's over twice the heat of an AC/20, and only slightly more than an ER PPC. Definitely pushes it into the "maybe not worth it" for me...
And that was for a 160-Damage Shot. While I can’t find any video to support this, it just makes sense that Heat would scale (maybe in 15-HEAT increments, maybe not) along with Damage as it scales.
I know, but at that range and for that level of heat I'd really rather have something else.
I also wonder . . . in the video, did anyone catch whether the Flea's evasion charges remained? The scroll-away was a little fast. If you did have to dump your Evasion Pips to fire the thing, that would be an interesting balance to have to tread.
Later that same Turn the video confirms that the FLEA retained its 4 Evasion Chevrons. But good out-of-the-Box thinking for ways HBS might be balancing the COIL Beam.
One thing to keep as you look for that “something else,” the COIL Beam delivers 40-280 PINPOINT damage at the cost of roughly 6-tons, a single Energy Slot, and from MAYBE 15-90 Heat. With 6 tons to work with, any resulting mix of weapons would at best deliver a spread of damage (for example 6 Medium Lasers delivering 25-150 Damage, spread across the Target at a cost of 6 Energy Slots and 72 Heat.)
While the jury may be out for some, I am already planning to retrofit each and every one of my Mechs to see just what the optimum number of COIL weapons and Heat Sinks will be. : )
“Feel” is one of the reasons I think a lot of people aren’t big fans of the idea. Tactically it’s interesting, fluff wise it’s a mess, game mechanics wise right now it does look rather OP.
That’s just a colossal amount of damage for six tons. However, I started running some numbers, assuming we’re balancing the COIL to compete with endgame tech:
4 Medium Laser ++d: 140 d, 48 h, 4 t
6 Medium Laser ++d: 210 d, 72 h, 6 t
2 ML++d/5SL++d Firestarter: 220d, 54 h, 4.5 t
COIL: weird positioning based scaling damage and heat, 6t.
Assume: 7 chevrons of movement + fire is only possible in the locust, Spider, and fast Cicada. I’m not sure if the fast Cicada even has 6 tons, sticking a COIL-L on a Locust requires armoring it like the -M (2 LRM 5+ 1t ammo+ 1 ML = 6t). The Spider can fit it if you drop all the Jump Jets, but the armor is still miserable.
So if you’re OK with putting an elite Sure Footed max Piloting skill pilot in a locust-M and running around in direct LOS at medium laser range outside of cover... 240 - 280 damage in one hit actually seems kind of reasonable considering the risk you’re taking.
Assume: a highly skilled sure-footed Pilot in a 7 speed light (Jenner) or medium (“slow” Cicada, Assassin) mech can reliably hit 5 Chevrons walking. 6 may be possible in open terrain, but not-getting-punched considerations and needing to keep in a firing arc make this unlikely.
So expected max COIL-L damage = 200.
A ++d-ed “stock” Jenner, which runs very light on the armor, has a max alpha of 188. Some of that is missiles, so pinpoint is probably around 164.
Assume: a highly skilled sure footed pilot in a Firestarter (6 speed) can move into position without getting punched reliably at 4, possibly 5 chevrons. Alternative mechs include the Phoenix Hawk (which wants to jump everywhere), Commando, Javelin, and Flea.
Expected max COIL damage: 160-200.
Endgame Firestarter max damage: 220, but in support weapon range.
Same Firestarter without endgame all ++d weaponry max damage: 150.
So the damage looks ridiculous, but when you eliminate high-risk edge cases it’s more comparable to boating normal lasers.
If you want to argue that the damage is still too high because it’s concentrated, (Pback vs Gback) maybe consider the following damage curve:
Chevrons/Damage: (was)
0 / 25 (40)
1 / 40 (40)
2 / 60 (80)
3 / 90 (120)
4 / 120 (160)
5 / 150 (200)
6 / 180 (240)
7 / 220 (280)
Suggested Heat:
0: 18
1: 24
2: 36
3: 46
4: 54
5: 60
6: 64
7: 66
The idea here is that whatever energy harvesting tech the COIL uses, it becomes dramatically more efficient when the mech is operating close to the desired performance band.
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